Back Again...with a garage now!

[lodstudios@gmail]

So, I have been researching and decided not to rent a space and build...I just could not justify spending the the money to build in a place I don't own.

Today my wife and I found out the bank accepted our offer on a house so I am going to build it in my garage...hooray!

So, the dimensions are less than what I would want but I know I can make it work. It is sort of divided, as you can see by the picture, and I am wondering if I should use that framing and make it divided for a storage closet and the other a Vocal Booth...then the main floor for Mixing...I need some input. Am I better off going with a setup like Darkwater and using just a single room for everything or dividing it like it is now? I could go either way, but I would love to be able to do my own drums in there as well as guitars...I know the divided space is too small for drums, that would leave me having to do it in the may room anyways so that MAY answer my question for me. My main concern is making the space sound as good as possible and using every inch to its best possible.

What are your thoughts? Can you suggest any layouts in this space? I record full time, this is how I make a living so I want clients to feel as comfortable as possible.

Budget would hopefully be in the $3,000 range or less...I will be doing the project with friends so I won't need to hire anyone...electrical and framing is covered by them.

Please let me know if you have any questions...

Keith

[Ethan Winer]

If you can make that one large room that's much better. Then set up the mix position and speakers like this:

How to set up a room

In your case I'd have the speakers on the right facing left. This makes the room wider behind you.

--Ethan

[lodstudios@gmail]

After further inspection, the wider section is an add on and is not part of the main structure....is it still more beneficial to go ahead and knock down that wall to create one room? Also, Should I consider giving up even more space by creating my second leaf more than 6" away from the existing Structure? The reason I ask is that the outside is simpy Lath, or wood paneling, and offers little to no isolation...I am worried that, even with a 2 leaf system, there may still be significant leakage...I know it isn't the IDEAL structure, but I have to make it work for me...any help is appreciated, I am going to start building within a month to a month and a half so I DO have some time to get the design set.

Also, At the end there are two 7'6"X4' swinging wood doors. I don't intent to use these and am wondering if I should remove these or simpy leave them and leave a foot gap between those and the second leaf.

Best,
Keith

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by lodstudios@gmail

is it still more beneficial to go ahead and knock down that wall to create one room?

I think so.

I'll let others address your isolation concerns.

--Ethan

[johndykstra]

careful that the wall seperating the add on isn't load bearing... I'd guess that it is.

[lodstudios@gmail]

That is my concern as well...it is not original but looks like it was done well and is VERY solid.

I am sort of at a stand still....

[AnthonySpinali]

I don't believe that simply knocking the wall down would be possible. Obviously I haven't seen it but unless the addition was built with the intention of having no wall there, removing that wall might compromise the structure. There are ways to reframe it, but I would recomend a professional design it because doing it wrong could destroy your garage.

As for the doors... If you don't need them it seems to me that your best bet would be to a)remove them and build a wall there or b)leave them (screw or nail them shut and caulk every seam) and build a wall immediately behind them. Do you have room to build two walls?

One other thought... you could add mass to the back of the exterior wood paneling before you insulate. I'm not sure what the best material for this application would be but I imagine that 5/8" drywall will work fine as long as it's dry. So ideally you would have (exterior to interior) wood paneling, 1or2 layers of drywall pushed against the paneling and held in place with 1x2s (caulk between the edge of the drywall and the studs/plates), then fluffy insulation, then a one inch gap, then a 2x4 wall with fluffy insulation, then 2 layers of 5/8" drywall. There should not be any mass (drywall) between the two layers of fluffy insulation. If you don't have room for the second wall you can look into resilient channel.

Sorry if you already knew this stuff.... Hope this helps.

[lodstudios@gmail]

You made my day...I think, lol.

I definitely want to preserve as much width as possible as I only have 11 1/2ft to work with....so, the idea that I could use a single wall and create a sort of 2 leaf system with that is VERY appealing to me. I am going to leave the garage doors, will absolutely seal them as they will certainly be a WEAK link and will need to build a wall in that section...

I am sure it is impossible to know for sure, but can you let me know what kind of isolation loss I will have by choosing to go with a single wall with resilient channel (as described above) vs. a standard 2 leaf system?

I am pretty sure the back section IS load bearing and I would rather not mess with the structure in that way. That being said, I will used 6.5 ft by 13ft partition as a vocal/guitar isolation booth...Is this going to be too small do get a decent drum recording out of? If it is I can certainly use the main room for drums, but I would much rather have them isolated.

One last question...

Would using the sound isolation clips, to mount the resilient channel, provide a drastically improved isolation result? I have seen, based on Rod's book and online info, that is would still give me a decent STC rating without using a 2 leaf?

Thanks so much,
Keith

[AnthonySpinali]

Sorry, I have no experience with resilient channel. I must differ to the experts on this one. Maybe track Rod down and ask him directly. I would also get a second opinion on my earlier post as I'm not an expert.

Good luck!

[lodstudios@gmail]

No worries, I am sure others will chime in!

One other question for you Slutz...would it still be ideal for me to float a floor here? I am planning on NOT floating a floor, is this going to be a mistake?

[lodstudios@gmail]

Ok, here are some rough picks of my new space...I am still very interested in doing a sort of cathedral ceiling to make it feel a bit bigger, and get a bit more height out of the room. I have seen a few builds, one still ongoing, where they did this but I want to have some opinions on it as well.

I am planning on 2 layers of 5/8" drywall between the studs, then a layer of pink stuff, then another 2 layers of 5/8 to complete the double leaf...has anyone done this? Is this going to provide me a decent amount of isolation? I know it will NOT get get me completely dead to the outside, but I am hoping it will at least make it not noticeable until a few fee away. Am I dreaming?

Also, you may notice the VERY old power installed in the ceiling. I am having all of the main power, to the house, updated and replaced, there will be a new breaker for the studio installed in the garage as well. I know it looks rough on the inside, but I am very confident I can make it into a very comfy space!

Please let me know if you have any questions.

[AnthonySpinali]

Those trusses look pretty old. I'm sure they are still good but I would be concerned about how much weight you can safely add to them. They might be fine with just the drywall but then what if you add 3 more layers and a huge cloud that weight? That might add too much stress. I see you're in San Diego so I imagine there's no concern with snow loads. You might want to discuss this with an engineer before you start.

As for isolation you probably need to do the same thing on the ceilings as the walls. Add mass. Two layers against the roof sheathing. Then two layers as your second leaf.

Traditionally if you have a vaulted ceiling the joists the drywall hangs from are not the ones that hold up the roof. This should be framed in under the existing structure with less pitch (angle). I recommend getting a carpenter with a lot of experience to do this (whether it's flat or vaulted). I wouldn't do this myself without guidance. There are a lot of things that you would never think of when it comes to trusses. I'm not a framer anymore and I didn't spend a whole lot of time in that side of the business. I could be wrong but framing trusses always seemed to be the tough part. Most times the trusses were pre-made to take out the human error. Especially in vaulted areas. I'm not trying to scare you. I just don't want your roof to come down on you.

Anthony

[lodstudios@gmail]

Yeah, the interior wood is 95% original from 1926...pretty old stuff but our inspector said it is all in really good shape and very solid. I will definitely have to think about seeking the advice of a contractor for the roof...Obviously I am MOST concerned about keeping the cost as low as possible, but I am equally concerned about the safety of myself, clients and my gear.

I can still elect to go with a non vaulted ceiling, still put up two layers of on the roof sheathing and then lots of pink stuff then two more layers on a built down roof...Only issue is I will only have a 8 FT. ceiling and I would REALLY like to stay away from that.

[lodstudios@gmail]

This is the basic layout I think I am going to go with...I am assuming the wall is load bearing and I don't want to mess with that so I am going to leave it...I would LOVE to do drums in the small room but I am not sure if it will give me horrible sounding results...any thoughts on this layout? Any suggestions?

Best,
Keith

[memphisindie]

Small drum rooms can work, they sound a bit tight but if you're not scared to turn a knob you can nullify the small room effect.

I have a barn right now about the same shape and age as yours I'm converting and the ceiling beams are overrated, I'm floating "areas", control area, float a platform for the drums etc.
I'm wrapping the inside of the wall studs and ceiling loosely with plastic film, sealing the edges, and stuffing with pink stuff, then drywall, maybe resiliant channel and another layer after that, we'll see if it's needed.
I have to replace the header on the wall that you're getting rid of. The big box of mine is 18' x 18' and I have to pour the floor in it this week.

If that wall of yours is load bearing, that just means you have to build a good stout header to span and support the open part of it and tie it to the other bldg. The header will have to be able to support the roof, and the ceilings.

[lodstudios@gmail]

Thanks for the info! Good luck on your build!

So, you aren't using more than one layer of rock then? What kind of isolation will you be getting?

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by lodstudios@gmail

Thanks for the info! Good luck on your build!

So, you aren't using more than one layer of rock then? What kind of isolation will you be getting?

I guess we'll see how much Isolation I'll get, BUT, between the rooms that may be used simultaneously, there will be a second wall and none will be on the same floor system (floated areas). The walls facing problem outside areas will at least have isomounted wallboard. Maybe I'll isolate the ceiling systems too.
If I need to do more, I will, but, budget is a concern. I've built a few garage studios. This one will be the best.

I planned to use one area for an equipment elevator to the attic storage area. That oughtta be fun to try and build. I have to keep an area for my woodshop out there too and it is rather extensive. After this one, I'm selling all my tools,,,,,and getting new smaller ones.

[lodstudios@gmail]

I have a few more questions....surprised?

I am considering the idea of just using a layer of insulation in the control room with two layers of 5/8 sheetrock...reason is I am not as concerned about sound leakage there and normally don't monitor loud so I don't think it will be an issue.

I am toying with the idea of spending more attention on the small live room and using the two layers of dry wall inside the studs, then insulation, then 2 more layers of drywall...Am I fooling myself by not doing this in the control room too?

One other question. I am planning on using basic R13 for all walls and ceilings, will it really make a huge difference in isolation if I use 703, or equivalent, in the live room only? I am most concerned about the drum and amp noise escaping too much.

Also. I was a bit confused by Rod's Chapter on ceilings...I know I will need to check and make sure the studs up there can handle the weight I am planning on putting there but I don't understand how using isolating hangers will avoid putting too much stress on the roof. Am I missing something?

[AnthonySpinali]

The clips that you are reffering to do not reduce the stress on the roof they reduce the stress on the member (the 2x4 from which you hang the ceiling in your case) from which you will hang the drywall by putting that stress on the main structure (in your case the existing trusses). When I was a framer we used 2x4s to connect that member to the truss. You cannot do this because of flanking. You need to decouple which is the purpose of the clip. Otherwise you might as well put your drywall directly to the trusses or use resilient channel. that would avoid Iso clips all together. I think..... Does that answer the question?

[lodstudios@gmail]

I am still a bit confused. I am wondering if I can effectively attach resilient channel directly to the 2/4's and 2 layers of 5/8 drywall to the resilient channel...Is this something I will need to consult with a structural engineer about? There are only two trusses spanning the whole control room, one between the control room and live room...I really want to avoid having to attach to the trusses as that will only give me an 8 foot ceiling, I would love to have the cathedral ceiling.

Sorry if my questions are repetitive, I read through the chapter on ceilings and floors again this evening twice and I still feel a bit confused as to how to put the ceiling up.

In this diary you see exactly what I am talking about, in fact we have about the same size room...

Home studio self build in Suffolk, UK

Best,
Keith

[memphisindie]

Just like the example you posted, since you aren't attaching to the kingstuds, since there won't be any, the wall below is not load bearing and the truss is holding the building together. the wall below it will not hurt it. What you put on the wall will not matter as far as structural integrity. Do what you want.
I thought you were talking about the 2x4 studs in the ceiling if you were having a lower ceiling.
You would need to have a layer of rock on resiliant channel ad then a layer with green glue, then another rock sheet. Believe it or don't, but, wrapping the bldg. in plastic sheeting inside the studs will help stop through transmission and keep the plastic loose other than stuffing fiberglass in there, and 703 is just 7lb fiberglas panels, you can put them in there if you want but it seems like a pricey tactic to me when rolls of bagged insulation are much cheaper.

[AnthonySpinali]

The general consensus of everyone here is that rolled insulation is fine behind the walls.

He is right you only need iso clips if you suspend the ceiling (cathedral or not). If you drywall to the existing trusses, the old 2x4s that hold the roof sheathing, resilient channel (RC2) is great (or so I'm told I've never used it).

[lodstudios@gmail]

Ok, that makes perfect sense. I was wondering how 2 sheets of 5/8 could cause the roof to come down, that is what I was understanding from the Rod's Book.

I am not planning on doing a lower ceiling, I am simply going to do a cathedral ceiling by attaching the RC2 to the 2x4's then the two layers of 5/8 drywall with a layer of green glue in the middle...I know there are other advertised products that are much cheaper....anyone have any success with them?

At this point I was actually thinking of putting plastic directly to all the inside studs like you were describing...my point was to keep moisture out but I can see the isolation is always a plus! Will any basic plastic work for this?

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by lodstudios@gmail

Ok, that makes perfect sense. I was wondering how 2 sheets of 5/8 could cause the roof to come down, that is what I was understanding from the Rod's Book.

I am not planning on doing a lower ceiling, I am simply going to do a cathedral ceiling by attaching the RC2 to the 2x4's then the two layers of 5/8 drywall with a layer of green glue in the middle...I know there are other advertised products that are much cheaper....anyone have any success with them?

At this point I was actually thinking of putting plastic directly to all the inside studs like you were describing...my point was to keep moisture out but I can see the isolation is always a plus! Will any basic plastic work for this?

I'm not sure how you spell "viscoene?" but any thick mil plastic sheets like they have at Lowes, 6 mil, x 50' L x 10' W type stuff will do. Really, anything thick as saran wrap will do, but, it may not survive the rest of the install. It's cheap and better than not using it, though nothing is perfect alone, it will help as part of the system.

[lodstudios@gmail]

Now that I am finalizing my design I am working on the HVAC portion...Being as though I have a limited budget I am thinking I am going to go with a portable air conditioner for the tracking room and a window mount for the control room as it has one window....my worry is sound leakage, I am assuming this will be a no-no as it compromises my whole build quality anyways...true?

My other thought is to use two portable units, one in each room, and will be happy with the better isolation. Anyone here have any success with any particular unit? I am in San Diego and I can tell you it gets VERY hot during the summer, even with me being a short ways from the beach.

The other reason I am going with one of these units is I understand they bring in fresh air from outside without having to do a HUGE HVAC system install....am I bonkers here? I read Rod's chapter a few times today and I know I don't need a big system as my whole space, including tracking room, is less than 250sq ft...I think these two units will be more than enough.

One other question...I know windows can also be a huge way to lose isolation, I am contemplating putting a window between the control and tracking room...I am not sure where to start to look at windows beefy enough to make it even worth it...Any suggestions?

thoughts?

[memphisindie]

Sliding glass doors, insulated, 2 of them.

Window unit will vibrate the wall, so, stiffen the window you put it in. It will compromise isolation and leakage. You could build an insulated intake box around the window and unit with a convoluted air entry and that would help. There is a thread about building a box , search for it, although it ='s for inter-room ducting, the principle should still serve.
Otherwise, just get a portable.

[JBaptista68]

We dumped the window from our design and went with closed circuit video in all of the rooms. Sound isolation became more important than asthetics unfortunately as we felt we couldn't "diy" a proper window system.

[johndykstra]

My control room is three stories up from the tracking room. It's actually kinda a nice vibe, knowing no one is watching. The guitar player and I are developing a second language where it's becoming less and less of a problem. I almost prefer it.

[lodstudios@gmail]

Another quick question. I want to have an XLR wall plate in my control room and another in my live room...I am assuming I will buy loose xlr cable and solder them in myself? My other question is this, where is a good place to look for these plates? I want to have 10 connections going to the live room, the most I have seen is plates of 6...so, I could do 1 of 4 and one of 6...this is what I need to do right? I know this is pretty basic, but I never have done this part before.

This is the one I am looking at...good to go with these? Any other suggestions?

Redco Audio

[lodstudios@gmail]

Ok, thought I would post a sheet of expected expenses to see if I am missing anything. I have a good friend who is doing all the electrical for free and I will be doing drywall and all other installations with friends.

Here is the breakdown, let me know if I am missing something. I do already have a running studio so I don't have a ton of other expenses as far as gear goes.

Best,
Keith