My studio layout

[cojo67]

Hello to the pros. I know there is a lot of talk on here about sizes of rooms, and I have come to understand a few principles (or at least so I think…) That a square room is bad, and that in order to have an accurate bass response it’s better to have a larger control room. I’ve tried answering “my own” question through reading other posts, but didn’t find anything specific, other than to avoid square rooms.
I am having a room constructed that will be a 15 X 26 with 9 foot ceilings. (the exterior dimensions are 16 X 27) and I am planning on dividing it into two rooms, control and mixing room, and then a larger tracking room.
My first thought was to make the control room an 11X15 and the tracking a 15X15… but then I found out about the square room problem… but I also don’t want to make my control room too small because even though I am planning on doing a lot of acoustical treatment, the smaller the room, the less low end accuracy.

So which way do I move the middle wall between the two rooms? Less control room space ( ex: control 9X15 and tracking 17X15) or the other way for less tracking room ( control 13X15 and tracking 13X15)… or do I just leave it the way it is, tracking 15X15 and control 11X15 and just rely on a lot of room treatment?

The sketch is NOT to scale, just to give a simple visual.

Cory

[cojo67]

Thinking of it now, I guess making the control room a 9X15 would not be a good option because the ceilings are 9 feet, so that in itself is creating a box.

[Glenn Kuras]

I am sure some are going to disagree with me and others will agree but I would go with a larger tracking room. I am amusing that you will be recording drums and other instruments so size in that area is going to become a issue very quick (fitting instruments with plays). Now if you are not going to be doing full bands then I would make the control room bigger. There just is not clear answer on this.

Glenn

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by cojo67

So which way do I move the middle wall between the two rooms? Less control room space ( ex: control 9X15 and tracking 17X15) or the other way for less tracking room ( control 13X15 and tracking 13X15)… or do I just leave it the way it is, tracking 15X15 and control 11X15 and just rely on a lot of room treatment?

No matter what you do you're going to have some challenges. Quite honestly and 11x15x9 room isn't going to be *that* much better than a 9x15x9 room; you'll need almost exactly the same amount of treatment either way...I don't think it'd lower your treatment budget by a single dollar. On the other hand, a larger tracking room could make a difference to your core tracks, which we all know is the most important thing there is. In this case, I'd side with Glenn...go for the bigger tracking room.

Frank

[johndykstra]

I vote for one room. Why divide it at all? You'd be compromising both rooms sound just for isolation during tracking. Let's look at pros and cons:

two rooms:
pros- isolation during tracking

cons- more money, poorer mixing acoustics, poorer tracking acoustics

one room:
pros- less money, better all around acoustics, more comfortable, better communication

cons- no iso during tracking

[cojo67]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

I am sure some are going to disagree with me and others will agree but I would go with a larger tracking room. I am amusing that you will be recording drums and other instruments so size in that area is going to become a issue very quick (fitting instruments with plays). Now if you are not going to be doing full bands then I would make the control room bigger. There just is not clear answer on this.

Glenn

Thank you for the quick feedback. Yes, I will be tracking drums in there, and maybe even sometimes multiple instruments and people at once, drums, bass, guitar, keys, etc...

[cojo67]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

I vote for one room. Why divide it at all

Well, I never thought of doing that, just because I figured it was VERY important when you do mostly live recording, to have really good isolation during tracking so that you can hear what it sounds like on the back end of the signal chain. However, I do see your valid points on this.

Does anyone else agree with this proposal?

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by cojo67

I figured it was VERY important when you do mostly live recording, to have really good isolation during tracking so that you can hear what it sounds like on the back end of the signal chain.

Your first couple of sessions may be a bit more set-up intensive, as far as tracking a few minutes and going back to make placement adjustments, but you'll learn the space in due time. Also, cosider having a full band in a smaller room, it'll be way more comfortable, not to mention that you'll be able to get more space between players for better isolation of tracks

[cojo67]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

No matter what you do you're going to have some challenges. Quite honestly and 11x15x9 room isn't going to be *that* much better than a 9x15x9 room; you'll need almost exactly the same amount of treatment either way..
Frank

Hey Frank, you would know a lot better than I would, but making the tracking a 9X15X9... isn't that going to create a box.

I did do one thing today, I talked to the contractor to see if he would be able to steeple the ceiling at all so that it was not a flat dimension. Wouldn't that help in getting rid of the room resonance problem?

[johndykstra]

you could build a few iso booths at one end for amps and a vocal booth, and it will help the dimensions fit into the room mode calculator a bit better

[cojo67]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

you could build a few iso booths at one end for amps and a vocal booth, and it will help the dimensions fit into the room mode calculator a bit better

Yeah, that does look like a good idea. I think my only big issue with that is that I would still be tracking drums without isolation.

Also, going to the 38% rule, if I was to have the control along the long wall (26 feet)... I would have to sit about 10 feet into the room, and if I was sitting 10 feet back into the room in order to meet that "rule" there would only be about 13 to 15 feet left in the room to set up everything else, which then just comes back to the fact that there is not as much room for everything else.
I am definitely NOT shooting your idea down, I think it's a good option to consider, I am just "talking out loud" about the issues I feel like I might face.

Thank you for your guidance man!

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by cojo67

Hey Frank, you would know a lot better than I would, but making the tracking a 9X15X9... isn't that going to create a box.

It would, but you're going to have a box (or something close) one way or the other. What I said was, if you're going to split it into two rooms to make the CR 9x15x9 because 11x15x9 isn't a big enough change to make any difference at all in terms of the amount of treatment you'll have to do. It'll be exactly the same either way, but a larger tracking room is likely to give you better core sounds, which is going to make the mixing job easier.

All that said, I actually really like John's idea and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it. One large room *always* trumps two smaller rooms...easier to treat, easier to track in. I'd seriously consider it.

Frank

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by cojo67

Also, going to the 38% rule, if I was to have the control along the long wall (26 feet)... I would have to sit about 10 feet into the room, and if I was sitting 10 feet back into the room in order to meet that "rule" there would only be about 13 to 15 feet left in the room to set up everything else, which then just comes back to the fact that there is not as much room for everything else.
I am definitely NOT shooting your idea down, I think it's a good option to consider, I am just "talking out loud" about the issues I feel like I might face.

I hear you, but you're going to have to do that no matter what size the room is. Taking 38% of the room is painful, but it's necessary.

Frank

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

I hear you, but you're going to have to do that no matter what size the room is. Taking 38% of the room is painful, but it's necessary.

Frank

Frank, is 38% still needed were he to consider soffit mounting his monitors?

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

Frank, is 38% still needed were he to consider soffit mounting his monitors?

Sure...his head would be at 38%, of course...not the desk. I mean, there are other ways to do it, but only as part of an integrated design strategy like Andre Vare, Andre Brito or Rod would do. If you've already factored much of that into the structural part then positioning is less of an issue except with respect to windows and doors and stuff, as they affect symmetry.

Frank

[johndykstra]

Ok, so taking one step back...

let's say the wall that i drew in were to be a "false wall", meaning, a vertical, breathable bass trap. It wouldn't effect the room mode, and you could place your desk against it, and be roughly 10' into the entire room. Of course, it doesn't provide as much isolation as a solid wall, but you could still get guitar amps in there, as well as using it for a mic closet and case storage.

[cojo67]

John and Frank,

Have you guys had experience trying to record a full band while they are in THE SAME room as you. Because I like the idea, I'm just concerned with the NO isolation issue. I am worried about not being able to hear what is being laid down because I am in the same room as them.
Just wondering how feasible or realistic it is?

Thank you guys for all the help

Cory

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by cojo67

John and Frank,

Have you guys had experience trying to record a full band while they are in THE SAME room as you. Because I like the idea, I'm just concerned with the NO isolation issue. I am worried about not being able to hear what is being laid down because I am in the same room as them.
Just wondering how feasible or realistic it is?

Thank you guys for all the help

Cory

It's the only way I've experienced it. It's not so bad. You just have to record a bit, listen back and evaluate. Like I said earlier, it just takes a bit longer to get aquainted with your space.

We just started building a control room in the studio in my signature line. It's on the 2nd floor and the tracking room is in the basement. We never would have done it for the sole purpose of isolation, it was needed to accomodate the space taken up by a new mixer and tape machine. Just wasn't feasible to have that amount of gear in the tracking room

[cojo67]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

It's the only way I've experienced it. It's not so bad. You just have to record a bit, listen back and evaluate.

Thanks for the info John, I will definitely give it some thought. It may be the best way to set it up, and it would save me some money on acoustic treatment. I know that I am going to be "superchunking" the 4 vertical corners, and possibly some of the other floor or ceiling corners. One room will create less corners to treat over all.

[johndykstra]

It's slow at work today...

Just realized you'd probably want to be able to get inside though

[cojo67]

Oh, wow. So that is the "false wall" you were talking about... that is a pretty cool idea. Thank god for slow days at work

Ok, so from reading you and Frank's post from before, placing my desk right up against that fake wall would be alright because it doesn't affect the "room mode?" I would still be "sitting 38% back" in the room?

It's an interesting idea anyway.

Thanks John

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by cojo67

Oh, wow. So that is the "false wall" you were talking about... that is a pretty cool idea. Thank god for slow days at work

Ok, so from reading you and Frank's post from before, placing my desk right up against that fake wall would be alright because it doesn't affect the "room mode?" I would still be "sitting 38% back" in the room?

It's an interesting idea anyway.

Thanks John

I'm not sure...but I can't see how 4" of rockwool with a breathable covering would have any negative effects. I am thinking, though, now that I look at it again, that the door may screw with your stereo image. It may be best to not have the wall, but still realize that you can get some guitar amps up there when you are tracking.

Gobos will be your friend

[cojo67]

Frank, Glenn, John, Ethan, whoever... one more quick question. Would it be at all helpful if the ceiling were slopped at all ( steeple like) all the way down the long run of the 26 feet? Instead of making the ceiling a flat 9 foot reach, it would run from 8 foot to 9 foot from both of the long sides to a center beam that ran the whole 26 feet.
Would that help the acoustics at all? Less boxy?

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by cojo67

John and Frank,

Have you guys had experience trying to record a full band while they are in THE SAME room as you. Because I like the idea, I'm just concerned with the NO isolation issue. I am worried about not being able to hear what is being laid down because I am in the same room as them.
Just wondering how feasible or realistic it is?

Thank you guys for all the help

Cory

Here is my take on it. There are people out there that do one room set ups all the time with great success. But for me I can't stand to be sitting in the same room with a drummer POUNDING away for hours on end or some person whacking away on the guitar to find that "perfect sound". Also I find it hard to pin point good locations in the room as the monitors are in the same room which you have to use headphones (still hard to hear) and can't iso the sound to REALLY hear what is going on. Like I said there are guys recording HIT records with one room set ups, so it is up to YOUR skills, needs and working environment.
I will add that we treat rooms ALL day long that are WAY to small and or crappy shapes and with the right plan they sound damn good after treatment. Heck I am setting up the office next to mine as a little "testing room"/FUN room that is 11x11x8. I bet when it is done it will sound better then 99% of the "ideal" sized rooms with zero acoustic treatment.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by cojo67

Frank, Glenn, John, Ethan, whoever... one more quick question. Would it be at all helpful if the ceiling were slopped at all ( steeple like) all the way down the long run of the 26 feet? Instead of making the ceiling a flat 9 foot reach, it would run from 8 foot to 9 foot from both of the long sides to a center beam that ran the whole 26 feet.
Would that help the acoustics at all? Less boxy?

Eh...

I'd say that if you were gaining extra real estate, meaning if you could stay at 9' on the perimeter and loft up from there to maybe 12' or so it may be worth taking a look at.

But it seems from what I'm reading that you would essentially be lobbing off a foot of your 9' height at the edges..right? No good.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Here is my take on it. There are people out there that do one room set ups all the time with great success. But for me I can't stand to be sitting in the same room with a drummer POUNDING away for hours on end or some person whacking away on the guitar to find that "perfect sound". Also I find it hard to pin point good locations in the room as the monitors are in the same room which you have to use headphones (still hard to hear) and can't iso the sound to REALLY hear what is going on. Like I said there are guys recording HIT records with one room set ups, so it is up to YOUR skills, needs and working environment.
I will add that we treat rooms ALL day long that are WAY to small and or crappy shapes and with the right plan they sound damn good after treatment. Heck I am setting up the office next to mine as a little "testing room"/FUN room that is 11x11x8. I bet when it is done it will sound better then 99% of the "ideal" sized rooms with zero acoustic treatment.

That's a fair point Glenn.

My experience with recording is exclusively my own material. The one room aspect probably didn't bother me so much, because we're always looking for roughly the same kind of tone out of the same instruments everytime. Not to mention, that I don't mind hearing my own drummer wail away.

Which leads to ask the question of the op...what is your intention for the space? Commercial or personal?

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by cojo67

Frank, Glenn, John, Ethan, whoever... one more quick question. Would it be at all helpful if the ceiling were slopped at all ( steeple like) all the way down the long run of the 26 feet? Instead of making the ceiling a flat 9 foot reach, it would run from 8 foot to 9 foot from both of the long sides to a center beam that ran the whole 26 feet.
Would that help the acoustics at all? Less boxy?

Sure, that'll help a little by increasing the interior volume of the room. You'll have to put traps all the way down the peak though.

Frank

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by Weasel9992

Sure, that'll help a little by increasing the interior volume of the room. You'll have to put traps all the way down the peak though.

Frank

Frank,

that's a decrease in volume...

[johndykstra]

Another slow day...

good news is I learned how to import models in sketch-up finally. That's fun.

I tore down the false wall and added two "amp corals". the arch shows the door swing clearance. Also added a door. Realized my sketch was short on the length by 1' some how, so I added a 1' slot absorber on the front wall.

Just thinking out loud...

[cojo67]

WOW.... if ONLY!.... if only my studio did (or will) look that good. That is a great sketch job. I have got to learn how to use that program.

That does look like a good idea. I've got all the ideas mulling around in my head now. Where to put the wall? Superchunks and diffusors? Do I even put a wall?

Seeing drawings like this really helps me visualize what it could possibly look like. Thanks so much man

Cory