New Room, angled walls, need help ..

[cosmos]

fellew slutz !

Ive moved to a new room and need your help here on the acoustics side, ive made a plan to treat the room and set up the gear there but before ill do some serious placing i need the professional approval.


first let me say that im sorry in advance for the bad english ... im from israel ..

This is going to be a control room for composing/mixing electronic music and ill be recording vocals/acustic guitars from time to time in that room as well.

First, Here is the room:

room shape,


where colored red we build a new wall with cement on the outer side with rockwool filled inside and gypsum layers inside. all is hold very tight and theres no air gaps in the walls, all 100% seald.

the angeld walls on the outer side are not precise in dimentions so walls are not parrel to each other. so as the outer 2.5m wall.

the ceeling is angled as well and going down 20cm from one side to other.

studio side view:



we installed wood ceeling and got stuck with the concrete floor.

i was thinking to cover the ceeling with 1-2 layers of mineral wool to get better absortion and cover with gypsum boards. but im afraid that the room will be too dry becouse ive made absortion panels to hang from the ceeling above the mixing position.

ive also made some bass traps made from 3 layers of rock wool wih 5cm air gap between for the rear wall.

i have 3 20 space racks of gear, big desk with 24ch soundcraft desk on it.

my plan was to treat the room like that:





- 4 traps behind the desk where monitors sits in (focal twins).
- 2 absorbers to the ceeling where mix position is.
- 4 big bass traps for the rear wall on corners.
- 4 traps on the rear wall with diffusers.

ok.

i have a 2 questions to the specialists here,

- is my plan ok ??? im afraid that the room will be too dry with everything there ... any other set up or sugesstion will be much apriciated.

- diffusers !! i want to build 4 60cm x 60cm like those ones for the back wall



is there any special dimentions for that ? can just cut the parts randonly and place them on the board?

many thanks in advance guys, any help will be more then great ! even the little tip ..



Tomer.

[cosmos]

The bass trap & ceiling absorbers:





some photos of the the room when we were building it, you can see the angels and the ceiling.

[OBSCENE]

When i was doing an AE course one of the teachers used to do installs and I remember him saying that often the best results come from randomly placing diffusors/Traps ect..

I know this isn't much help but if you want there are formulas to figure this stuff out, I don't think I have them laying around anymore but if I find anything I'll let you know if not try a google search. Should turn up somethings.

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by OBSCENE

When i was doing an AE course one of the teachers used to do installs and I remember him saying that often the best results come from randomly placing diffusors/Traps ect..

I know this isn't much help but if you want there are formulas to figure this stuff out, I don't think I have them laying around anymore but if I find anything I'll let you know if not try a google search. Should turn up somethings.

Thanks ! however i dont want to place them ranomly, i belive that there are spots that are most reflective which need to be treated, but im not expert so i might be wrong here .. but ill look it up.

[OBSCENE]

No problems,

Yes you're right there are certain areas that will need attention main aim I think would be to eliminate any direct reflections at the mix position, so trying not to leave any right angles would prob be a good start. Bass being omni directional I think random placement of the traps should work just fine. Setting up you're speakers at the mix position and listening to the room to isolate problems and figure out possible solutions is another approach that can give great results.

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by OBSCENE

No problems,

Yes you're right there are certain areas that will need attention main aim I think would be to eliminate any direct reflections at the mix position, so trying not to leave any right angles would prob be a good start. Bass being omni directional I think random placement of the traps should work just fine. Setting up you're speakers at the mix position and listening to the room to isolate problems and figure out possible solutions is another approach that can give great results.

great, thanks for the info. i will do some testing as well when the room is done.

[Northward]

Hi,

Just a few thoughts

While I'm in the acoustics school that believes geometry of a room is one of the most important factors, more important than absorption or diffusion because among other things it will greatly influence both those factors and how much you need of it, I must also say that the geometry work has to be done looking at the bigger picture and according to a "plan" of how the energy will be redistributed in the room.

By geometry, I'm not talking about a rectangular room and ratios. I'm talking about a complex, studied geometry, which will imply the room will be very different from a rectangle type room in it's behaviour. They have nothing in common anymore.

So in short, it cannot be just any angle, or a rough copy/paste of what is commonly seen in bigger studios. It really needs to be calculated and part of an "organic" system, which in the end will give every specific type of treatment it's right use in the right spot. From a certain point, adding diffusion or trapping simply won't solve your problems because they lie somewhere else...

Your design has some good ideas and it clearely shows you have thought about it. But beware of the front angles, and as a general rule of thumb, angles/slopes of less than 7° are pretty much useless in real life.

When it comes to your diffusion plan, a good diffusor is not a random Lego by any means. It's calculated, and i'm sure you can find on the internet lots of little apps that can help with that. I'm sure Glenn, Frank or Ethan have good links to provide you!

Not enough absorption is bad, but too much is equally bad (especially of the same type/model/bandwidth). Your rooms must be "neutral" AND "balanced". They are not exactly the same thing. You need your reverb time to be neither too short nor too long or you will either overdo the reverb settings or the opposite in your mixes. So in short it must still sound natural, albeit a bit on the dead side.

Grab a measurement mic + software and measure your room often as you fix it - create a journal of the evolutions. It will help you take the right decision when it comes to what treatment is needed for the next step. And I can tell you it will save you money and time too. (and headaches)

[cosmos]

Thanks Northward, thats what i thought, i dont want to over do it and just place traps everywhere, thats why i posted here to get your opinions, but tips for a place to start will be great and ill take it from there ...

software for mesurments will be great, if one have it, pleaaaase do it will help much !!!

- ive used 3 layers of 5cm 80kg rockwool for the basstraps, which other matirial will be good for mid/high bands ? does 2 layers of 60kg will be ok ?

[nosebleedaudio]

Good looking diffusor...
If they are too close it will have less effect on the sound..
8 to 10 feet away is a good starting point, not saying they will do nothing closer, will perform better further away..

[Weasel9992]

Your treatment plan looks good to start...you might look at those corners in the back though. At this point I'd get things set up correctly, then shoot the room. There's more to it than just getting the room stable in terms of standing waves...there's also work to be done toward achieving balance with respect to decay times, and that's tough to do until you have some idea of what they are.

Frank

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by cosmos

i dont want to place them ranomly, i belive that there are spots that are most reflective which need to be treated

All rooms need:

* Broadband (not tuned) bass traps straddling as many corners as you can manage, including the wall-ceiling corners. More bass traps on the rear wall behind helps even further. You simply cannot have too much bass trapping. Real bass trapping, that is - thin foam and thin fiberglass don't work to a low enough frequency.

* Mid/high frequency absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling.

* Some additional amount of mid/high absorption and/or diffusion on any large areas of bare parallel surfaces, such as opposing walls or the ceiling if the floor is reflective. Diffusion on the rear wall behind you is also useful in larger rooms.

--Ethan

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

* Mid/high frequency absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling.
--Ethan

Thanks Ethan, do i need different matirial to handle the Mid/High freq. ? does standard rockwool will do the job ?

[Jamzone]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

All rooms need:

* Broadband (not tuned) bass traps straddling as many corners as you can manage, including the wall-ceiling corners. More bass traps on the rear wall behind helps even further. You simply cannot have too much bass trapping. Real bass trapping, that is - thin foam and thin fiberglass don't work to a low enough frequency.

* Mid/high frequency absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling.

* Some additional amount of mid/high absorption and/or diffusion on any large areas of bare parallel surfaces, such as opposing walls or the ceiling if the floor is reflective. Diffusion on the rear wall behind you is also useful in larger rooms.

--Ethan

I agree.

I would use ´hangers´ whereever possible. Check out johnlsayers.com for details. Used it in my controlroom in the corners and roof. Rock solid bass response.

Make sure your side/roof reflections are directed to the back of the room and absorbed.

The front wall (not the angled sides) I would make really absorbing (10" of 703) to avoid comb filtering effects in the bass/mid area.

Good luck,

///Jamzone

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by cosmos

do i need different matirial to handle the Mid/High freq. ? does standard rockwool will do the job ?

Standard stuff does the job.

--Ethan

[Jamzone]

Originally Posted by cosmos

fellew slutz !

Ive moved to a new room and need your help here on the acoustics side, ive made a plan to treat the room and set up the gear there but before ill do some serious placing i need the professional approval.


first let me say that im sorry in advance for the bad english ... im from israel ..

This is going to be a control room for composing/mixing electronic music and ill be recording vocals/acustic guitars from time to time in that room as well.

First, Here is the room:

room shape,


where colored red we build a new wall with cement on the outer side with rockwool filled inside and gypsum layers inside. all is hold very tight and theres no air gaps in the walls, all 100% seald.

the angeld walls on the outer side are not precise in dimentions so walls are not parrel to each other. so as the outer 2.5m wall.

the ceeling is angled as well and going down 20cm from one side to other.

studio side view:



we installed wood ceeling and got stuck with the concrete floor.

i was thinking to cover the ceeling with 1-2 layers of mineral wool to get better absortion and cover with gypsum boards. but im afraid that the room will be too dry becouse ive made absortion panels to hang from the ceeling above the mixing position.

ive also made some bass traps made from 3 layers of rock wool wih 5cm air gap between for the rear wall.

i have 3 20 space racks of gear, big desk with 24ch soundcraft desk on it.

my plan was to treat the room like that:





- 4 traps behind the desk where monitors sits in (focal twins).
- 2 absorbers to the ceeling where mix position is.
- 4 big bass traps for the rear wall on corners.
- 4 traps on the rear wall with diffusers.

ok.

i have a 2 questions to the specialists here,

- is my plan ok ??? im afraid that the room will be too dry with everything there ... any other set up or sugesstion will be much apriciated.

- diffusers !! i want to build 4 60cm x 60cm like those ones for the back wall



is there any special dimentions for that ? can just cut the parts randonly and place them on the board?

many thanks in advance guys, any help will be more then great ! even the little tip ..



Tomer.

Do NOT diffuse the back wall in that room. The distance from your head to diffusor is to close. ABSORB!! You could use diffusors i other areas though...

//Jamzone

[cosmos]

Thanks all guys ! youve helped alot here ! i will post the test results soon.

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