Small Room, Big sound...Is That Possible?

raindog · 24th July 2008, 02:25 AM

Hey everyone,
I'm new to this forum and like every single other person, am seeking some advice/help about treating my space, so a preemptive "sorry" for the repetitiveness but I'm really hoping to get some good advice here.

So the short story is...I've got a converted garage that measures approx. 15 ft x 16ft with ceilings a bit shy of 8 ft. The floor is concrete, but I've got some cheap ultra thin utility carpet on there now. It's completely untreated, albeit some moving blankets hanging from the walls. As I'm sure you can imagine, it's ultra reflective, and super fluttery sounding without any of the carpet or blankets. The main concern was for band rehearsal and these cheapo solutions do the trick, but I really want to treat the room and make it a legit tracking room. I've also got a glorified broom closet for a control room, approx 7 ft x 13 ft with 8ft ceilings. It's super narrow and long, and I'm sure a total acoustic nightmare, but that's what I've got to work with and I'd like to make it work. Believe it or not, I've mixed a few records in there already and I've learned it well enough to make it work, but I'd like to make things easier for myself. Oh and it's got the same carpet on the floor and the walls are totally untreated as well.

As for the live room, like the title implies, I would really like to be able to record drums in there and have a usable room sound, hopefully even bigger and roomier sounding than the room really is...if that's at all possible. I certainly don't like dead sounding rooms, but maybe that's all I can afford with what I have. I'm hoping you guys can tell me. Of course, with the control room I just want it sounding as accurate as possible.

Thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to what you guys have to say.

Here's a crummy diagram I whipped up and some crummy pictures taken on my phone:

control room:

Live room facing control room:

Live room from door:

Live room back corner:

Live room again:

andrebrito · 24th July 2008, 10:59 AM

For live room sound in a small room you should use diffusers with absorption.

Glenn Kuras · 24th July 2008, 11:10 AM

Welcome to the forum.

The control room.

-Start by pulling back setting area to where your ears are 38% of the room length.
-Treat as many corners with proper bass trapping.
-Treat early reflections on side walls and ceiling
-Thick absorption on back wall.

see the following page for room set up for mix area and acoustics. Note your room is way to small for diffusion.

GIK Acoustics: Room Setup

For the live room

-Bass Trapping in as many corners as possible.
-Thinner panels spread out around the room to knock down over all decay times
-Panels on the ceiling above the drums, covering foot print of drum area
-Diffusion could be used, but keep in mind that it would be more "icing on the cake" and would not start with it.

Glenn

andrebrito · 24th July 2008, 11:52 AM

Glenn, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this matter ! :-)

If he wants a live tracking room in a small room (and that room is not that small) then using absorption only is not the way to go. Sure he needs absorption just to control the reverberation time but then he should use diffusion on ceiling and walls as well to spread the sound in the room and to give some sonic spatial sensation in the room. He can make part of the room where the drums are located more diffusing for instance. Keep in mind he already has carpet on the floor !

Regarding bass traps he may use them or not. I don't see this as mandatory as a control room.

Glenn Kuras · 24th July 2008, 02:27 PM

I don't mind if you disagree, but really I never said NOT to use diffusion,

but that room is not that big and almost squ. I think you are much better (in this room) to take away as much of the room sound and add that in effects at the end. Note I am not saying make it dead, but I surely would not want a BUNCH of tracks stacked up of a almost/small/squ room sound.

I would though after proper absorption use diffusion.
I think there is a balance.

Glenn

bpape · 24th July 2008, 03:20 PM

In that almost square room, bass control is going to be mandatory. I'll agree with a mix of absorption and diffusion for the balance. However, the floor should be hard and the ceiling should be soft.

Reasoning? Look at the room height. Again, it's almost a perfect multiple of the other room dimensions so we're really dealing with a cube like situation that carpet isn't going to deal with. This is especially important if there is a desire to track drums in there. At a minimum, I'd make up a wood slab from laminate or whatever under the drum kit.

Bryan

andrebrito · 24th July 2008, 08:28 PM

I have seen nice acoustical tracking rooms of similar size without bass traps. The problem is really the ceiling's height but you live with what you have. I also prefer wood on floors instead of carpet.

In my opinion, and since this is not a control room, you can skip the bass traps. You don't want your bass player or drummer saying there's no bass in the room ! hahaha !

Glenn Kuras · 24th July 2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

You don't want your bass player or drummer saying there's no bass in the room ! hahaha !

Bass traps will not take the bass away but make it tighter, clearer and punchy.

Glenn

andrebrito · 24th July 2008, 09:07 PM

They don't take the bass away but they reduce low energy frequency in a room, that was kind like a joke.

In a control room it makes sense to place bass traps since location of speakers and listener is fixed and you are looking for the most neutral listening experience.

In a tracking room I, at least prefer it to be anything but neutral. Yes, length and width of the room are similar and that can be a problem but it can also be an advantageous. That room is not that small, I've seen rehearsal rooms way smaller than those ones.

Sound sources in such space are not fixed so one can move them to benefit from the acoustics in the room. He can just leave the bass traps decision to the end of the acoustical treatment and if he feels the low frequency range needs to be fixed then he can place them on the room

Weasel9992 · 24th July 2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrebrito

They don't take the bass away but they reduce low energy frequency in a room, that was kind like a joke.

In a control room it makes sense to place bass traps since location of speakers and listener is fixed and you are looking for the most neutral listening experience.

In a tracking room I, at least prefer it to be anything but neutral. Yes, length and width of the room are similar and that can be a problem but it can also be an advantageous. That room is not that small, I've seen rehearsal rooms way smaller than those ones.

Sound sources in such space are not fixed so one can move them to benefit from the acoustics in the room. He can just leave the bass traps decision to the end of the acoustical treatment and if he feels the low frequency range needs to be fixed then he can place them on the room

That's still a small room as defined by Everest. With all due respect, the last thing I'd be looking for out of a room that size, shape and composition is "ambience". I'd be very satisfied with "accuracy". I'd also be very hesitant to record a 2x10 tube amp at high volume, or (God forbid) an 8x10 Ampeg bass cab with an SVT head, compression set to "nuke". Without bass trapping in a room that size, you're screwed in either of those two cases.

Frank

raindog · 24th July 2008, 09:34 PM

Thanks for the input guys. I'll definitely reconfigure the control room like that diagram suggests. As for the live room, seems like there's a bit of a debate going on which I really have no expertise on so it leaves me somewhat conflicted. Seems like the majority is that it's unrealistic to get that room to sound very live, but it can be treated to sound good, or accurate. I guess with drums I can settle with having a good dry sound and use a good convolution reverb to create a space. But still all things considered, I'd love for it to sound as lively as possible. I love roomy sounding drums and have a lot of fun experimenting with micing drums sans close mics and so it'd be nice to have this space be conducive to that. But of course I need to record lots of things other than drums, bass (like Frank mentioned), guitar, etc. I guess the key would be trying to find a good middle ground?

nosebleedaudio · 24th July 2008, 09:41 PM

One thing I will add is diffusors on a wall would be better than a simple FLAT sheetrock wall...
It seems that most feel that for diffusors to work their best they need to be at least 8 to 10 feet away.
Your low ceiling limits what you can do.

Glenn Kuras · 24th July 2008, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindog

Thanks for the input guys. I'll definitely reconfigure the control room like that diagram suggests. As for the live room, seems like there's a bit of a debate going on which I really have no expertise on so it leaves me somewhat conflicted. Seems like the majority is that it's unrealistic to get that room to sound very live, but it can be treated to sound good, or accurate. I guess with drums I can settle with having a good dry sound and use a good convolution reverb to create a space. But still all things considered, I'd love for it to sound as lively as possible. I love roomy sounding drums and have a lot of fun experimenting with micing drums sans close mics and so it'd be nice to have this space be conducive to that. But of course I need to record lots of things other than drums, bass (like Frank mentioned), guitar, etc. I guess the key would be trying to find a good middle ground?

Middle ground??? Just keep in mind that bass traps are not going to take away from the room but add punch and definition to the low end.

Glenn.

Ethan Winer · 24th July 2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpape

In that almost square room, bass control is going to be mandatory. I'll agree with a mix of absorption and diffusion for the balance.

I agree for the reason stated Bryan. Sure, a really big well-proportioned room might be able to get away without a lot of bass trapping. But a small room that's a virtual cube like this needs as much bass trapping as possible. Even when a room is larger and well proportioned, a universal goal is to have a uniform decay time versus frequency. I don't see how a room like this could ever have a short enough decay time below a few hundred Hz without bass traps.

--Ethan

raindog · 24th July 2008, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Kuras

Middle ground??? Just keep in mind that bass traps are not going to take away from the room but add punch and definition to the low end.

Glenn.

I meant the middle ground in reference to how "live" the room sounds. You were saying you'd recommend treating the room such that you take away most of the room sound, but I would really like to hold onto some liveliness in the room if possible.

I was originally wondering if there was a way to sort of cheat the actual size of the room by using some special techniques and placements of certain room treatment objects to tame the room but somehow still have a large dimension to the sound. I knew it was a long shot, but I thought I'd ask. I see now that that's most likely not possible, and so am trying to realistically figure out how I would like to treat it.

I totally understand the argument for the bass traps. It doesn't magically suck bass out, but rather clarifies it and un-muddies it. Sounds wonderful. I'd love to do that.

andrebrito · 25th July 2008, 12:41 AM

No, it is possible. Use diffusers, particularly at the walls. They are responsible for the sense of sonic space in a room. At least in concert halls acoustics they are.. so maybe something might be done in a small room, instead of a) having a flat wall b) placing absorption in the room that kills the reflections and you end up losing that sense of sound spaciousness. If not create a sense of sound spaciousness at least to have a live room with a more controlled acoustics in it. You can do one thing, start placing some absorption panels in the walls and ceiling just up to the point you feel the room is nor wet and neither dry. Then add diffusion. This is the empirical approach, without creating a crazy acoustical model of the room.

Regarding my bass traps statements...

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself properly. If this would be a control room I would agree with the absorption/bass traps suggestions in order to have a "flat" acoustics in the room, then I would agree with the linearity in the decay you are referring to (well more or less because I prefer control rooms to have a bit more energy at low frequencies and not be completely flat). This even so this depends on the kind of control room you are building but since this is an untreated space, that also would be my suggestion.

This is a rehearsal room. Requirements are different. He can change the locations of sound sources in the room so I don't see the modal behavior in a rehearsal room such a bad thing as a control room. I'm perfectly aware bass traps will control bass in that room.. so if he does not want that "boom" factor in a room, then I would say "ok, go for the bass traps". But that boom factor is sometimes appreciated by musicians, ironically !

I always get 4 complains from musicians :

a) the room is too dry, lacks clarity - too much absorption
b) the room is too wet - lack of absorption
c) too much confusion at low frequencies or definition - in this case the rooms needs bass traps
d) but I also get another complain: no bass in the room. meaning a) too much bass traps in the room b) or people were used to a room without bass traps and the "lack" of bass dislike them

So I would suggest: first a solution of diffusers and absorbers in the room. You don't need much absorption since this is a small room. After this is done, if you feel you should use bass traps then go for it.

There are professional spaces, with booths where drums and vocals are recorded that don't have bass traps in it. One example is Sahara Studios at London Sahara Sound - Harris Grant Associates (check photo).

raindog · 25th July 2008, 08:57 AM

Ok, so I've been doing my homework for the last few hours and my head is spinning, but here's what I think may do the job from what I gathered.

Bass traps: 2' x 4' x 4" (or should I go thicker? perhaps 5"?)
Broadband traps: 2' x 4' x 2"
All filled with 703 or 705 mineral wool. I still haven't grasped the difference between 703 and 705 though...

For the control room:
After reconfiguring it correctly (38% of the length of the room, etc)...

4 Bass traps - 3 in the corners, 1 on the back wall. The fourth corner (back left corner) has a door that swings right into it so I can't really put anything there that sits diagonal across the corner. Not really sure what I should do about this situation. Any suggestions?

3 broadband traps - One on each side wall, one above the mix position.

Here's some practical concerns as well.
- First off, I'm afraid that moving the mix position will place the window in a prime spot for reflection.
- I also don't mind rearranging the room so that my mix position is facing the window. I just felt it was awfully awkward since the room is so narrow and it seems like I'd be getting tons of reflection right back at me. But maybe I'm wrong?
- Lastly, the room is carpeted. Should I keep that? I feel like if I expose the concrete floor the sounds gonna bounce around too much unless I put traps up on the entire ceiling (which I don't want to do).
- I feel like if I do all this, between moving the desk further into the room and placing all these panels in the corners, I'm gonna be left with no seating in there for anyone besides myself.

Live Room:

4 Bass traps - 3 in all the right angled corners, and then maybe somehow affixing one to the door that cuts the bottom left corner?

8 broadband traps - 3 walls with 2 panels each (6 total) and 2 panels above the drums.

4 diffusers behind the drums?? - I was looking at Glenn's GIK diffusers :)

And this would all be done sans carpet, with just the cement floor. A concern I have is that I'll need to put more traps up on the ceiling since they're parallel with the floor, only 8 ft apart, and both super reflective (cement and sheet rock).

Let me know if you guys think this will work. Thanks!

Here's the diagrams very awfully updated with the doors (sorry I can't figure out how to do the thumbnails)

By the way, these diagrams are totally not proportional, I don't really know how to use photoshop. I also am hoping to get this done with a budget of around $500 to $1000. Is that possible if I go totally DIY on all the panels and buy the diffusers? Thanks everyone.

Oh, and I want to clarify...although this is used for rehearsal as well, I'll be tracking a lot here and want to make it as legit a tracking studio as possible.

andrebrito · 25th July 2008, 09:32 AM

If you are removing the carpet to uncover the concrete floor than just don't remove it at all

About your question regarding 703 and 705, almost the same. I will paste here some data I got from Eric's post at Slayer's site (Recording Studio Design :: View topic - Owens Corning 701, 703, 705)

Owens Corning 701, 703, 705
Thickness: 1", 2", 3", 4" and one 6"
All Measurements mounting direct to reflective background (no cavity).

SORTED PER DENSITY VERSUS THICKNESS
Freq: 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 Hz

1 inch
OC 701 · 1.0" · 0.17 · 0.33 · 0.64 · 0.83 · 0.90 · 0.92
OC 703 · 1.0" · 0.11 · 0.28 · 0.68 · 0.90 · 0.93 · 0.96
OC 705 · 1.0" · 0.02 · 0.27 · 0.63 · 0.85 · 0.93 · 0.95

2 inch
OC 701 · 2.0" · 0.22 · 0.67 · 0.98 · 1.02 · 0.98 · 1.00
OC 703 · 2.0" · 0.22 · 0.82 · 1.21 · 1.10 · 1.02 · 1.05
OC 703 · 2.0" · 0.17 · 0.86 · 1.14 · 1.07 · 1.02 · 0.98
OC 705 · 2.0" · 0.16 · 0.71 · 1.02 · 1.01 · 0.99 · 0.99
OC 705 · 2.0" · 0.16 · 0.71 · 1.02 · 1.01 · 0.98 · 0.98

3 inch
OC 701 · 3.0" · 0.43 · 1.17 · 1.26 · 1.09 · 1.03 · 1.04
OC 703 · 3.0" · 0.53 · 1.19 · 1.21 · 1.08 · 1.01 · 1.04
OC 705 · 3.0" · 0.54 · 1.12 · 1.23 · 1.07 · 1.01 · 1.05

4 inch
OC 701 · 4.0" · 0.73 · 1.29 · 1.22 · 1.06 · 1.00 · 0.97
OC 703 · 4.0" · 0.84 · 1.24 · 1.24 · 1.08 · 1.00 · 0.97
OC 705 · 4.0" · 0.75 · 1.19 · 1.17 · 1.05 · 0.97 · 0.98

Glenn Kuras · 25th July 2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindog

I meant the middle ground in reference to how "live" the room sounds. You were saying you'd recommend treating the room such that you take away most of the room sound, but I would really like to hold onto some liveliness in the room if possible.

Like I said, or maybe TRYING TO SAY

is I agree you don't want the room to be totally dead, but must people confuse dead for to much absorption on the high end but the bass is still bouncing around the room. There is a balance if done right.

Glenn

Glenn Kuras · 25th July 2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindog

Ok, so I've been doing my homework for the last few hours and my head is spinning, but here's what I think may do the job from what I gathered.

Bass traps: 2' x 4' x 4" (or should I go thicker? perhaps 5"?)
Broadband traps: 2' x 4' x 2"
All filled with 703 or 705 mineral wool. I still haven't grasped the difference between 703 and 705 though...

For the control room:
After reconfiguring it correctly (38% of the length of the room, etc)...

4 Bass traps - 3 in the corners, 1 on the back wall. The fourth corner (back left corner) has a door that swings right into it so I can't really put anything there that sits diagonal across the corner. Not really sure what I should do about this situation. Any suggestions?

3 broadband traps - One on each side wall, one above the mix position.

Here's some practical concerns as well.
- First off, I'm afraid that moving the mix position will place the window in a prime spot for reflection.
- I also don't mind rearranging the room so that my mix position is facing the window. I just felt it was awfully awkward since the room is so narrow and it seems like I'd be getting tons of reflection right back at me. But maybe I'm wrong?
- Lastly, the room is carpeted. Should I keep that? I feel like if I expose the concrete floor the sounds gonna bounce around too much unless I put traps up on the entire ceiling (which I don't want to do).
- I feel like if I do all this, between moving the desk further into the room and placing all these panels in the corners, I'm gonna be left with no seating in there for anyone besides myself.

Live Room:

4 Bass traps - 3 in all the right angled corners, and then maybe somehow affixing one to the door that cuts the bottom left corner?

8 broadband traps - 3 walls with 2 panels each (6 total) and 2 panels above the drums.

4 diffusers behind the drums?? - I was looking at Glenn's GIK diffusers :)

And this would all be done sans carpet, with just the cement floor. A concern I have is that I'll need to put more traps up on the ceiling since they're parallel with the floor, only 8 ft apart, and both super reflective (cement and sheet rock).

Let me know if you guys think this will work. Thanks!

Here's the diagrams very awfully updated with the doors (sorry I can't figure out how to do the thumbnails)

By the way, these diagrams are totally not proportional, I don't really know how to use photoshop. I also am hoping to get this done with a budget of around $500 to $1000. Is that possible if I go totally DIY on all the panels and buy the diffusers? Thanks everyone.

Oh, and I want to clarify...although this is used for rehearsal as well, I'll be tracking a lot here and want to make it as legit a tracking studio as possible.

I think that looks like you have been doing your home work.

Shoot me a email if you are going to get some of our D1's and we can help you with placement ideas.

Glenn

Glenn Kuras · 25th July 2008, 11:17 AM

andrebrito,

As I don't agree with all of your methods I do agree with A LOT of them. Great to see we can have a discussion without egos getting in the way and ending in blood shed with locked threads.

Glenn

andrebrito · 25th July 2008, 01:17 PM

Thanks Glenn !

It is always good to discuss things. This is in fact the most fascinating thing about acoustics, which is, there's not an unique way of doing things. And sometimes, what seems correct for one person, is entirely opposite for another. For instance, some people like rooms more dry, other more live etc etc...

I think if we have in mind the basics of acoustics and sound perception and what the client wants then we can do a good work.

Jason Jones · 25th July 2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raindog

Live Room:

4 Bass traps - 3 in all the right angled corners, and then maybe somehow affixing one to the door that cuts the bottom left corner?

8 broadband traps - 3 walls with 2 panels each (6 total) and 2 panels above the drums.

4 diffusers behind the drums?? - I was looking at Glenn's GIK diffusers :)

And this would all be done sans carpet, with just the cement floor. A concern I have is that I'll need to put more traps up on the ceiling since they're parallel with the floor, only 8 ft apart, and both super reflective (cement and sheet rock).

I would actually mix the diffusers in with your side wall absorber panels. Using a 2'x2' absorber panel and a 2'x2' diffuser in place of as many of the absorber panels as you can afford to do. As long as nothing is between the drums and the diffuser, you will get more from them than if they were behind the drums.

I am sure the budget won't allow this, but if possible I would rip out the carpet and cover 17% of the ceiling with diffusers (you could include the panels over the drums, or any other ceiling panels in your 17% calculation).

Jason

Glenn Kuras · 25th July 2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Jones

I would actually mix the diffusers in with your side wall absorber panels. Using a 2'x2' absorber panel and a 2'x2' diffuser in place of as many of the absorber panels as you can afford to do. As long as nothing is between the drums and the diffuser, you will get more from them than if they were behind the drums.

I am sure the budget won't allow this, but if possible I would rip out the carpet and cover 17% of the ceiling with diffusers (you could include the panels over the drums, or any other ceiling panels in your 17% calculation).

Jason

Jason,
Great to see you chiming in on this thread! Could you go into a little more about the 17% number?

raindog,
Jason is the diffusion guru (he did all the research/math/production/design of the D1) so as l

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24th July 2008, 02:25 AM	#1
raindog Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 7	Small Room, Big sound...Is That Possible? Hey everyone, I'm new to this forum and like every single other person, am seeking some advice/help about treating my space, so a preemptive "sorry" for the repetitiveness but I'm really hoping to get some good advice here. So the short story is...I've got a converted garage that measures approx. 15 ft x 16ft with ceilings a bit shy of 8 ft. The floor is concrete, but I've got some cheap ultra thin utility carpet on there now. It's completely untreated, albeit some moving blankets hanging from the walls. As I'm sure you can imagine, it's ultra reflective, and super fluttery sounding without any of the carpet or blankets. The main concern was for band rehearsal and these cheapo solutions do the trick, but I really want to treat the room and make it a legit tracking room. I've also got a glorified broom closet for a control room, approx 7 ft x 13 ft with 8ft ceilings. It's super narrow and long, and I'm sure a total acoustic nightmare, but that's what I've got to work with and I'd like to make it work. Believe it or not, I've mixed a few records in there already and I've learned it well enough to make it work, but I'd like to make things easier for myself. Oh and it's got the same carpet on the floor and the walls are totally untreated as well. As for the live room, like the title implies, I would really like to be able to record drums in there and have a usable room sound, hopefully even bigger and roomier sounding than the room really is...if that's at all possible. I certainly don't like dead sounding rooms, but maybe that's all I can afford with what I have. I'm hoping you guys can tell me. Of course, with the control room I just want it sounding as accurate as possible. Thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to what you guys have to say. Here's a crummy diagram I whipped up and some crummy pictures taken on my phone: control room: Live room facing control room: Live room from door: Live room back corner: Live room again:

24th July 2008, 10:59 AM	#2
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	For live room sound in a small room you should use diffusers with absorption. __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous

24th July 2008, 11:10 AM	#3
Glenn Kuras Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,905	Welcome to the forum. The control room. -Start by pulling back setting area to where your ears are 38% of the room length. -Treat as many corners with proper bass trapping. -Treat early reflections on side walls and ceiling -Thick absorption on back wall. see the following page for room set up for mix area and acoustics. Note your room is way to small for diffusion. GIK Acoustics: Room Setup For the live room -Bass Trapping in as many corners as possible. -Thinner panels spread out around the room to knock down over all decay times -Panels on the ceiling above the drums, covering foot print of drum area -Diffusion could be used, but keep in mind that it would be more "icing on the cake" and would not start with it. Glenn __________________ Glenn Kuras - GIK Acoustics www.GIKAcoustics.com Need help with your room? click here

24th July 2008, 11:52 AM	#4
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	Glenn, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on this matter ! :-) If he wants a live tracking room in a small room (and that room is not that small) then using absorption only is not the way to go. Sure he needs absorption just to control the reverberation time but then he should use diffusion on ceiling and walls as well to spread the sound in the room and to give some sonic spatial sensation in the room. He can make part of the room where the drums are located more diffusing for instance. Keep in mind he already has carpet on the floor ! Regarding bass traps he may use them or not. I don't see this as mandatory as a control room. __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous

24th July 2008, 02:27 PM	#5
Glenn Kuras Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,905	I don't mind if you disagree, but really I never said NOT to use diffusion, but that room is not that big and almost squ. I think you are much better (in this room) to take away as much of the room sound and add that in effects at the end. Note I am not saying make it dead, but I surely would not want a BUNCH of tracks stacked up of a almost/small/squ room sound. I would though after proper absorption use diffusion. I think there is a balance. Glenn __________________ Glenn Kuras - GIK Acoustics www.GIKAcoustics.com Need help with your room? click here

24th July 2008, 03:20 PM	#6
bpape Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: St. Louis(Wildwood), MO Posts: 438	In that almost square room, bass control is going to be mandatory. I'll agree with a mix of absorption and diffusion for the balance. However, the floor should be hard and the ceiling should be soft. Reasoning? Look at the room height. Again, it's almost a perfect multiple of the other room dimensions so we're really dealing with a cube like situation that carpet isn't going to deal with. This is especially important if there is a desire to track drums in there. At a minimum, I'd make up a wood slab from laminate or whatever under the drum kit. Bryan __________________ I am serious, and don't call me Shirley Bryan Pape Lead Acoustical Designer GIK Acoustics

24th July 2008, 08:28 PM	#7
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	I have seen nice acoustical tracking rooms of similar size without bass traps. The problem is really the ceiling's height but you live with what you have. I also prefer wood on floors instead of carpet. In my opinion, and since this is not a control room, you can skip the bass traps. You don't want your bass player or drummer saying there's no bass in the room ! hahaha ! __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous

24th July 2008, 09:07 PM	#9
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	They don't take the bass away but they reduce low energy frequency in a room, that was kind like a joke. In a control room it makes sense to place bass traps since location of speakers and listener is fixed and you are looking for the most neutral listening experience. In a tracking room I, at least prefer it to be anything but neutral. Yes, length and width of the room are similar and that can be a problem but it can also be an advantageous. That room is not that small, I've seen rehearsal rooms way smaller than those ones. Sound sources in such space are not fixed so one can move them to benefit from the acoustics in the room. He can just leave the bass traps decision to the end of the acoustical treatment and if he feels the low frequency range needs to be fixed then he can place them on the room __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous

24th July 2008, 09:34 PM	#11
raindog Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 7	Thanks for the input guys. I'll definitely reconfigure the control room like that diagram suggests. As for the live room, seems like there's a bit of a debate going on which I really have no expertise on so it leaves me somewhat conflicted. Seems like the majority is that it's unrealistic to get that room to sound very live, but it can be treated to sound good, or accurate. I guess with drums I can settle with having a good dry sound and use a good convolution reverb to create a space. But still all things considered, I'd love for it to sound as lively as possible. I love roomy sounding drums and have a lot of fun experimenting with micing drums sans close mics and so it'd be nice to have this space be conducive to that. But of course I need to record lots of things other than drums, bass (like Frank mentioned), guitar, etc. I guess the key would be trying to find a good middle ground?

24th July 2008, 09:41 PM	#12
nosebleedaudio Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 1,525	One thing I will add is diffusors on a wall would be better than a simple FLAT sheetrock wall... It seems that most feel that for diffusors to work their best they need to be at least 8 to 10 feet away. Your low ceiling limits what you can do. __________________ Mike Keith, JMK Audio www.jmkaudio.com

25th July 2008, 12:41 AM	#16
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	No, it is possible. Use diffusers, particularly at the walls. They are responsible for the sense of sonic space in a room. At least in concert halls acoustics they are.. so maybe something might be done in a small room, instead of a) having a flat wall b) placing absorption in the room that kills the reflections and you end up losing that sense of sound spaciousness. If not create a sense of sound spaciousness at least to have a live room with a more controlled acoustics in it. You can do one thing, start placing some absorption panels in the walls and ceiling just up to the point you feel the room is nor wet and neither dry. Then add diffusion. This is the empirical approach, without creating a crazy acoustical model of the room. Regarding my bass traps statements... Perhaps I'm not explaining myself properly. If this would be a control room I would agree with the absorption/bass traps suggestions in order to have a "flat" acoustics in the room, then I would agree with the linearity in the decay you are referring to (well more or less because I prefer control rooms to have a bit more energy at low frequencies and not be completely flat). This even so this depends on the kind of control room you are building but since this is an untreated space, that also would be my suggestion. This is a rehearsal room. Requirements are different. He can change the locations of sound sources in the room so I don't see the modal behavior in a rehearsal room such a bad thing as a control room. I'm perfectly aware bass traps will control bass in that room.. so if he does not want that "boom" factor in a room, then I would say "ok, go for the bass traps". But that boom factor is sometimes appreciated by musicians, ironically ! I always get 4 complains from musicians : a) the room is too dry, lacks clarity - too much absorption b) the room is too wet - lack of absorption c) too much confusion at low frequencies or definition - in this case the rooms needs bass traps d) but I also get another complain: no bass in the room. meaning a) too much bass traps in the room b) or people were used to a room without bass traps and the "lack" of bass dislike them So I would suggest: first a solution of diffusers and absorbers in the room. You don't need much absorption since this is a small room. After this is done, if you feel you should use bass traps then go for it. There are professional spaces, with booths where drums and vocals are recorded that don't have bass traps in it. One example is Sahara Studios at London Sahara Sound - Harris Grant Associates (check photo). __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous

25th July 2008, 08:57 AM	#17
raindog Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 7	Ok, so I've been doing my homework for the last few hours and my head is spinning, but here's what I think may do the job from what I gathered. Bass traps: 2' x 4' x 4" (or should I go thicker? perhaps 5"?) Broadband traps: 2' x 4' x 2" All filled with 703 or 705 mineral wool. I still haven't grasped the difference between 703 and 705 though... For the control room: After reconfiguring it correctly (38% of the length of the room, etc)... 4 Bass traps - 3 in the corners, 1 on the back wall. The fourth corner (back left corner) has a door that swings right into it so I can't really put anything there that sits diagonal across the corner. Not really sure what I should do about this situation. Any suggestions? 3 broadband traps - One on each side wall, one above the mix position. Here's some practical concerns as well. - First off, I'm afraid that moving the mix position will place the window in a prime spot for reflection. - I also don't mind rearranging the room so that my mix position is facing the window. I just felt it was awfully awkward since the room is so narrow and it seems like I'd be getting tons of reflection right back at me. But maybe I'm wrong? - Lastly, the room is carpeted. Should I keep that? I feel like if I expose the concrete floor the sounds gonna bounce around too much unless I put traps up on the entire ceiling (which I don't want to do). - I feel like if I do all this, between moving the desk further into the room and placing all these panels in the corners, I'm gonna be left with no seating in there for anyone besides myself. Live Room: 4 Bass traps - 3 in all the right angled corners, and then maybe somehow affixing one to the door that cuts the bottom left corner? 8 broadband traps - 3 walls with 2 panels each (6 total) and 2 panels above the drums. 4 diffusers behind the drums?? - I was looking at Glenn's GIK diffusers :) And this would all be done sans carpet, with just the cement floor. A concern I have is that I'll need to put more traps up on the ceiling since they're parallel with the floor, only 8 ft apart, and both super reflective (cement and sheet rock). Let me know if you guys think this will work. Thanks! Here's the diagrams very awfully updated with the doors (sorry I can't figure out how to do the thumbnails) By the way, these diagrams are totally not proportional, I don't really know how to use photoshop. I also am hoping to get this done with a budget of around $500 to $1000. Is that possible if I go totally DIY on all the panels and buy the diffusers? Thanks everyone. Oh, and I want to clarify...although this is used for rehearsal as well, I'll be tracking a lot here and want to make it as legit a tracking studio as possible. Last edited by raindog; 25th July 2008 at 08:59 AM.. Reason: whoops forgot

25th July 2008, 09:32 AM	#18
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	If you are removing the carpet to uncover the concrete floor than just don't remove it at all About your question regarding 703 and 705, almost the same. I will paste here some data I got from Eric's post at Slayer's site (Recording Studio Design :: View topic - Owens Corning 701, 703, 705) Owens Corning 701, 703, 705 Thickness: 1", 2", 3", 4" and one 6" All Measurements mounting direct to reflective background (no cavity). SORTED PER DENSITY VERSUS THICKNESS Freq: 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000 Hz 1 inch OC 701 · 1.0" · 0.17 · 0.33 · 0.64 · 0.83 · 0.90 · 0.92 OC 703 · 1.0" · 0.11 · 0.28 · 0.68 · 0.90 · 0.93 · 0.96 OC 705 · 1.0" · 0.02 · 0.27 · 0.63 · 0.85 · 0.93 · 0.95 2 inch OC 701 · 2.0" · 0.22 · 0.67 · 0.98 · 1.02 · 0.98 · 1.00 OC 703 · 2.0" · 0.22 · 0.82 · 1.21 · 1.10 · 1.02 · 1.05 OC 703 · 2.0" · 0.17 · 0.86 · 1.14 · 1.07 · 1.02 · 0.98 OC 705 · 2.0" · 0.16 · 0.71 · 1.02 · 1.01 · 0.99 · 0.99 OC 705 · 2.0" · 0.16 · 0.71 · 1.02 · 1.01 · 0.98 · 0.98 3 inch OC 701 · 3.0" · 0.43 · 1.17 · 1.26 · 1.09 · 1.03 · 1.04 OC 703 · 3.0" · 0.53 · 1.19 · 1.21 · 1.08 · 1.01 · 1.04 OC 705 · 3.0" · 0.54 · 1.12 · 1.23 · 1.07 · 1.01 · 1.05 4 inch OC 701 · 4.0" · 0.73 · 1.29 · 1.22 · 1.06 · 1.00 · 0.97 OC 703 · 4.0" · 0.84 · 1.24 · 1.24 · 1.08 · 1.00 · 0.97 OC 705 · 4.0" · 0.75 · 1.19 · 1.17 · 1.05 · 0.97 · 0.98 __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous

25th July 2008, 11:17 AM	#21
Glenn Kuras Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 3,905	andrebrito, As I don't agree with all of your methods I do agree with A LOT of them. Great to see we can have a discussion without egos getting in the way and ending in blood shed with locked threads. Glenn __________________ Glenn Kuras - GIK Acoustics www.GIKAcoustics.com Need help with your room? click here

25th July 2008, 01:17 PM	#22
andrebrito Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: London Posts: 344	Thanks Glenn ! It is always good to discuss things. This is in fact the most fascinating thing about acoustics, which is, there's not an unique way of doing things. And sometimes, what seems correct for one person, is entirely opposite for another. For instance, some people like rooms more dry, other more live etc etc... I think if we have in mind the basics of acoustics and sound perception and what the client wants then we can do a good work. __________________ Studio Design, Home Cinema/Studios Assistance, Large Room Acoustics projects - UK and Portugal. Online Consulting for the rest of the world We also sell acoustical diffusers at affordable prices, starting at 70 € / piece each ! http://www.onlineacoustics.com Music - http://www.myspace.com/spinous