Need Treatment Ideas for a Music Cafe

[lucey]

Photo Gallery


This is an old church with a great vibe but bad sound.

Acoustic music is okay, but drums and bass, even for jazz, just get messy in there. The performers are on the long wall, playing toward the cafe kitchen area in the photos. The mains are hanging up in the top corners of the long wall, stage side. They are 15s with horns, junk basically, too large of a woofer for the music in there.

Please have a look and let me know any trapping or general ideas that may help this room. It's too wet and has some low mid resonances. My first suggestion was 2 walls on casters to go next to the stage at an angle, making a staging area on eather side of the performing area. One side of the wall would be 705 or 703? ... the other wood. And some 703 on the wall behind the drum riser.

??



thanks,

[Ethan Winer]

Brian,

You'd treat that room more or less as you would a smaller space. If their budget demands DIY, get a truckload of 703 and spread it evenly around the room, with a little more in the corners to help reduce bass boom.

--Ethan

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by lucey

Photo Gallery


This is an old church with a great vibe but bad sound.

Acoustic music is okay, but drums and bass, even for jazz, just get messy in there. The performers are on the long wall, playing toward the cafe kitchen area in the photos. The mains are hanging up in the top corners of the long wall, stage side. They are 15s with horns, junk basically, too large of a woofer for the music in there.

Please have a look and let me know any trapping or general ideas that may help this room. It's too wet and has some low mid resonances. My first suggestion was 2 walls on casters to go next to the stage and an angle. One side would be 705, the other wood. And some 703 on the wall behind the drum riser.

??

I think treatment is actually third or fourth down the list of issues. The first problem is the one you brought up...the mains are probably too big for the room. The second problem goes hand in hand with the first: the mains are in entirely the wrong position....you really couldn't put them in a worse place, actually. In order to get anything like coverage of the room you're having to run them way, way too loud. This is undoubtedly causing all kinds of comb filtering problms all over the because the information from one speaker is arriving long before the other. Third, there are too few speakers. Fourth on the list, after all of that is fixed, would be treatment.

To fix the actual underlying issues, here's what I'd suggest:

1.) Drop the 15's and buy some good 12's with a horn. Run them full-range, no sub.
2.) Move them to the center, above and ahead of the stage. Aim them so that you're getting as little energy as possible up in the ceiling.
3.) Buy two more of the same 12's and place them further out left and right. Buy a decent DSP (like a DriveRack 260), then you can run the left and right outriggers at a lower volume for a balanced room response. You didn't mention how far the mains are firing, but if it's more than about 35', a third set of delay speakers toward the back would be a great idea. I'd even consider installing a zone of small speakers in the cafe', like JBL Control Series stuff. You didn't mention how they're powering the speakers they have, but that's likely part of the problem as well. Typically I see speakers that are *radically* under powered in these kind of rooms. Good amps properly powering the mains would lower the level of distortion, raising the perceived level of clarity.
4.) Treat the wall behind the musicians if you can. If not, your idea for some mobile panels would probably work pretty well, but the room would stay pretty lively.

If they're willing to do the install themselves, then they could probably do all of that for about $6,000 or $7,000.

If they're not willing to do any of that, then some treatment would at least help. Problem is, they've got stuff on all the walls that I can see, and I don't know whether they'd be willing to change that or not. If not, then they're stuck with either mobile panels (kinda like the way you'd position gobos to "shrink" a large live room) and some rugs on the floor, or crappy sound.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you have it.

Frank

[bpape]

What a cool place.

I'll agree with Frank that there are a lot of other things that need to be addressed to make the presentation better before we treat the room. Getting good coverage spread throughout the space rather than trying to do everything from one pair is going to give you a lot more control and mitigate the need to treat the room heavily.

The one thing I do think will need to be treated is the bottom end. They could be done more like square pillars in the corners to better fit the room. Drums are just tough in a space like that. A large convex cloud could be hung up high to scatter things a bit and above it (hidden) you could incorporate absorbtion. This will keep the nice live feel to the space. Overall, I'd try to keep it as minimal as possible - just enough to knock things down a little bit but we definitely don't want to kill the space.

I'd shoot for the doing the sound system first and see if you still feel you need something before proceeding down the road of treating it.

Bryan

[lucey]

What would a corner pillar look like? Would it be at an diagonal angle, or square? Floor to ceiling? Would it be such that art could hang on it, or would it be solid 705 stuffed in a tall frame? There are only 2 or maybe 3 corners where this can be done.

How would the convex cloud be made? What size? And how much absorption could happen there? What about fire code?

I really don't think the room needs more than one pair of speakers and I know the budget is low here. I have a pair of powered 3-way QSCs that are floor standing, I'm tempted to loan them those for most of the year and have him put the money into treatments.

Their hung 15s are powered in mono, underpowered but not too bad. Luckily they have a 31 band eq on the mono feed and it sounds okay, it's just too far away, and too muddy in the corners.

[bpape]

Your call on the speakers. More, smaller speakers placed better will give you very good coverage and much less boom. Any shot to at least get those out of the corners?

The pillars would be square most likely to fit in with the look of the room if possible. Do what you can. Probably something like 12x12" is about all you're going to get away with. If you can do more, that's great. You could potentially also do up around the wall/ceiling perimeter to stay out of the way and get a little more coverage.

I wouldn't hang a bunch of stuff on them. They'll be basically frame and 703 with cloth covering.

Cloud is effectively a hard surface. Make it as big as you can manage and still have nice headroom. Might consider not being convex but just flat - but dropping down by the stage and then continuing up at an angle toward the rear of the room. It can be a simple frame with drywall if you want. Insulationis nothing fancy. If you use steel studs, there's not a flammable item in it at all.

Again, I'd seriously consider a couple more smaller pairs of speakers to help coverage without pushing the mains as Frank suggested.

Bryan

[lucey]

I never liked the corner speakers but had gotten so used to them I had them off my list, thanks for stating the obvious. They also use cheap Sennheiser mics that are muddy, and I'm suggesting Shure 545SDs that are cheap and nice.

I'm going to take my floor standing QSCs over there (well, they will come pick them up!) and we'll start with that and see the difference, then think about the room. They are fairly broke but I'm trying to talk them into 4x 2 way powered 12s like a Mackie or similar.

These would be hung from the ceiling and pointed away from the stage at an angle, correct?


If the corner traps were 12' tall and 3' square would that be enough to really help? Is there a diagram of this kind of thing somewhere?

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by lucey

I never liked the corner speakers but had gotten so used to them I had them off my list, thanks for stating the obvious. They also use cheap Sennheiser mics that are muddy, and I'm suggesting Shure 545SDs that are cheap and nice.

I'm going to take my floor standing QSCs over there (well, they will come pick them up!) and we'll start with that and see the difference, then think about the room. They are fairly broke but I'm trying to talk them into 4x 2 way powered 12s like a Mackie or similar.

These would be hung from the ceiling and pointed away from the stage at an angle, correct?

Correct. Above and ahead of the stage angled right and left. The Mackie's you're suggesting would be great...important that they get the install versions though so they're not hanging speakers from the handles with dogchain or something. Not safe. The install versions come with threaded hanging points and eye bolts.

That, and the treatment Bryan suggested, would take a big chunk out of the problem.

Frank

[DanDan]

What a lovely venue. Could we have some more info? Height. Flat or vaulted ceiling? Ceiling material? Wall material- sheetrock wood?
Floor- concrete or wood, space underneath? Rugs, carpet? Is the sound confused without amplification? Is the overall ambience brash clattery and noisy without the music?
If the surfaces are not concrete/brick I cannot imagine how you would have a bass problem. Any of those panel constructions are effectively Bass Traps. Varnished or painted wood is highly reflective at mid and high frequency, as is glass. If you have areas like this, you need to make it's partner area facing it absorbent, or break the path. Creative use of hanging fabrics can work wonders overhead, taming bounces up there. Fabric covered 703 (tie-dyed?) can be hung or placed strategically on walls or ceilings. Would it be possible to put the musos on a little stage facing a length of the room, or in a corner?
Without a diagram I do agree the speaker position seems odd. What type of speakers are they? Many old 15 plus horns are fine, sweeter than the smaller ones IMHO. One speaker over the stage and one at the side or even at the back pointing forward can sometimes work. I would not be ruled by symmetry of any kind. I agree with those above, amplification quality is important, as is thick speaker cable. No names, just thick. Dynacord are doing some really hi fidelity mixer amps these days. I reckon the Shure 58 is vastly superior to the 545 or anything else in that general price range. If there is anything Behringer in the building call in pest control. In particular their DI's are from hell. Some of those little twenty dollar Radio Shack Lavalier electret condensers can be amazing on guitar mandolin, fiddle.
Regards, Dan FitzGerald AMIOA
SoundSound - Homepage

[lucey]

It's a flat ceiling ... sheetrock with an attic above. Exterior construction is wood, walls are plaster over lathe boards I'm assuming. It's from 1890 or so.

I agree the size is such that the low end should not be so messy. I'm thinking it's the speaker placement that's making it all 500 swamp.

I can't agree about the older 545 sd however ... fantastic mics. But I didn't say that, as I like to buy them on eBay.

[bpape]

3x3 on the corner columns is pretty big. Don't think you really need anything that large and I wouldn't want to take up that much space. For what's going on in there, 18"x18" is plenty big. 12"x12" will get you down pretty low in the bottom end and likely in the range you're having issues with.

I don't have a diagram of it but it's not hard to build. It's basically just a 1 stud wall tied to another one stud wall if you want to build them in. Or you can build a freestander but I'd likely just build them in. Do what you can in terms of height/number of corners.

As for the ceiling, I'd likely leave that until after you get all the rest of this done in terms of corners and speakers and see what you have. Might not need to do the ceiling.

Bryan

[lucey]

Originally Posted by bpape

3x3 on the corner columns is pretty big. Don't think you really need anything that large and I wouldn't want to take up that much space. For what's going on in there, 18"x18" is plenty big. 12"x12" will get you down pretty low in the bottom end and likely in the range you're having issues with.

I don't have a diagram of it but it's not hard to build. It's basically just a 1 stud wall tied to another one stud wall if you want to build them in. Or you can build a freestander but I'd likely just build them in. Do what you can in terms of height/number of corners.

So a stud wall with drywall on it? Or an open wall with 703 in it and fabric?

What about the top of it, open or closed?


And is the 703/705 supposed to fill the thing, or just be on the surfaces (2 or 4)?


thanks,

[andrebrito]

Can you tell me what are the dimension of that place ?

It seems this no longer belongs to small room acoustic but indeed to large room acoustics,so forget about bass traps in such a space. Indeed in bars and discos it is advantageous to place the PA system in the corners, like you have placed, to get that extra bass from the speakers, on the contrary of a recording studio.

You need to treat that ceiling, period. If you are worried regarding the aesthetics reasons of room acoustics treatment, you can use a perforated panel in it. This of course will be costly.

If you really want to use rockwool panels, for $$$ reasons, then don't fill that place with tons of panels. Air absorption already acts at high frequencies, due to the volume of the room and covering it with rockwool will end up with an unbalanced room. That is the main reason perforated or slotted panels are used in public large places and not typical rockwool panels we see in recording studios, they are tuned for mid frequencies absorption.

Adding some diffusers to the space can also help to correct some echoes problems, particularly at the stage, where musical intimacy is desired and also reflect some sound to the audience. You can also add absorption and diffusion to the walls but the ceiling is the first surface to solve, acoustically speaking.

[bpape]

Just looking at it - it appears to be kind of a tweener on size. I'll agree you don't want a ton of stuff everywhere - just a bit of bottom end control and potentially something on the ceiling.

To do the corners, no drywall, just cloth. Do as you please on the top. As for filling, if you're doing 18" square, then plain fluffy fiberglass will work just fine and cost you less than 703 or mineral wool. The additional thickness helps a lot.

Bryan

[DanDan]

So the ceiling is sheetrock. I will assume the floor is reflective at high and mid frequencies. These are then your two biggest surfaces. With respect to other suggestions above, you will have to treat one of them. Hanging ceilings work great, look awful to me. There are acoustic plasters. They are probably out of budget but I am curious. Has any of our experienced acousticians here used such products?
More affordable- Flags, Art, 703 wrapped in Art. Second hand theatre drapes. I have seen Boat sails used up there!
Best Regards, DD

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by DanDan

So the ceiling is sheetrock. I will assume the floor is reflective at high and mid frequencies. These are then your two biggest surfaces. With respect to other suggestions above, you will have to treat one of them. Hanging ceilings work great, look awful to me. There are acoustic plasters. They are probably out of budget but I am curious. Has any of our experienced acousticians here used such products?
More affordable- Flags, Art, 703 wrapped in Art. Second hand theatre drapes. I have seen Boat sails used up there!
Best Regards, DD

Sure...I've seen 20oz.+, 50% fullness velour stage valances used above the seating area, Flags, not to mention the more typical ceiling treatments (tectem, absorbers of different kinds). The problem with the non traditional stuff is that it can be hard to quantify their effect...not that they have no effect, just hard to tell exactly what it will be.

Frank

[DanDan]

Hi Frank,
Indeed unpredictable but surely all to the good?
To all, any experience with SonaSpray or other Acoustic Plasters?
Best, DD

[Weasel9992]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Hi Frank,
Indeed unpredictable but surely all to the good?
To all, any experience with SonaSpray or other Acoustic Plasters?
Best, DD

It's hard to use the words "unpreditctable" and "good" in the same sentence. Informally, I can say that I've seen those kind of solutions work pretty well, but I cannot quantify it, so the assertion is entirely empirical.

Never used the other items mentioned.

Frank

[andrebrito]

There are acoustic plasters. They are probably out of budget but I am curious. Has any of our experienced acousticians here used such products?

You have BASWA for instance, but I think it is expensive (http://www.baswa.com/assets/dokument...ehaengtENG.pdf)

Other brand is STO (http://www.sto.co.uk/evo/web/sto/268..._acoustics.pdf)

Yes, acoustical plaster works ok for mid and high frequencies. It is however not that easy to apply (so I've been told!)

[avare]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Hi Frank,
Indeed unpredictable but surely all to the good?
To all, any experience with SonaSpray or other Acoustic Plasters?
Best, DD

I have done research on acoustic plasters, and following the laws of physics, they are good and can absorbent down to low frequencies with appropriate material and space behind them.

The big question is what is your budget? Acoustic plaster is not cheap.

Andre

[bpape]

Many of the suggestions above such as flags, sails, etc. can provide some mid to high frequency control. Is that good? Maybe, maybe not. There's a matter of balance.

In addition, one needs to consider that this is a PUBLIC place and therefore, all of the materials most likely will need to be fire and smoke rated for safety reasons.

My original suggestion was to do a 'cloud' but out of hard materials to eliminate the parallel floor and ceiling without overdeadening and without introducing flammable materials. The cavity above would be open for absorbent material but not to a point where it would overly deaden the space. The non-parallel surface whether flat and angled or arched, would either push reflections away from floor/ceiling or in the case of the arch, scatter the sound over a wider area.

Bryan

[avare]

Originally Posted by bpape

My original suggestion was to do a 'cloud' but out of hard materials to eliminate the parallel floor and ceiling without overdeadening and without introducing flammable materials. The cavity above would be open for absorbent material but not to a point where it would overly deaden the space. The non-parallel surface whether flat and angled or arched, would either push reflections away from floor/ceiling or in the case of the arch, scatter the sound over a wider area.

Good suggestion.

Andre

[lucey]

The ceiling has lights and fans, so a cloud is out.

I lent them my QSC 3 ways, put them on 18" cubes .. and ... they have moved the room longways, so it sounds a lot better already.
I set up a 31 band mono eq for the crappy monitors and they now sound pretty amazing for their brand and condition. Of course the QSCs are amazing, and I lent them by Yamaha dual 31 band for those as well.


If you look at the photos again, the stage is now on the shorter wall with the beautiful adjacent pair of stained (well, colored) glass windows (and Christmas tree). So those need something to go over them for drum performances.

Drums will still make a mess, so I've suggested covering the back wall (behind the stage) with 703 and fabric. That would eliminate the main parallel surface in the room. The L-R parallel is now broken up by the kitchen/serving area to the performers right.




Basically I think they need to do the back wall and maybe te corners and it will be done .... how does that seem to y'all?

[andrebrito]

Go for the ceiling, forget about walls.

You can do several things here:

a) use acoustical foam in the ceiling. Maybe you won't need to fill the entire ceiling and can use a chess pattern approach. I'm sure you can find fire-rated acoustical foam in your area (I sell it in Portugal and Spain).

b) use perforated or slotted panels

c) use alternative products (something like RPG Reapor)

d) use acoustical plaster

e) rockwool is pretty inflammable. If you can find a good fire-rated fabric, maybe you can use it (not sure what are your fire/smoke restrictions in your area)

[DanDan]

Hi Brian, I am glad to hear of the positive moves. I believe you have chosen wisely. I reckon your next moves should be guided by your ears. It is a matter of balance. For a start, maybe it's OK now? Bass players have been known to play too loud, drummers can have great difficulty playing softly, so do check with recorded music also. Your QSC's might need to be raised. If not OK yet, try to identify which frequency range is out of control. If the drums are the worst offender, is the problem the cymbals, the top end? I have rarely heard an acoustic drumkit sounding too phat. We have been making suggestions, guessing what the room sounds like, thus the differing priorities. Some of the suggestions made are bankers, they nearly always work. i.e. Treat the Ceiling, Trap the corners. All we have is opinions here, little data, no measurement. It is an empirical exercise ;-)
So, IMHO.
I always warm to the sound of treated ceilings. I play drums. Carpet or wall absorption don't excite me but ceilings work. Due to budget, that may not be possible. Check the cost of DIY versus GIK or HF MiniTraps. 703, framing, fireproof fabric etc. all add up. The commercial products work very well. If the ceiling is out consider carpet on the stage floor. Nobody has suggested this yet. I think we all simply don't like the vibe of it. However I do think it has to be an option. I have found carpet to be extremely effective in a small church/recording stage. In that case it was quite thick. Three layers of the cheap stuff in fact. This removed the cymbal wash and thin drum sound from the vocal mics. Really effective.
The wall behind the band might be an option. Perhaps you could find a second hand theatre drape. (already fire rated) Perhaps this could cover the back of the stage and the two windows? You could put some 703 or cheaper stuff behind this. Such 'Blackdrops' can look great with a simple pair of lights.

Best Regards, DD
SoundSound - Homepage

[Eoin Ramone]

[quote=lucey;2682833]Photo Gallery
"It's too wet and has some low mid resonances"
How about helm holtz resonators?the right one can suck certain problematic frequencies rite outta the air........

[andrebrito]

[quote]

Originally Posted by lucey

Photo Gallery
"It's too wet and has some low mid resonances"
How about helm holtz resonators?the right one can suck certain problematic frequencies rite outta the air........

I had already suggested that but under a different name, perforated or slotted panels ! But they are expensive ! Still the most suitable solution for that kind of room concerning medium frequency absorption increase.

Of couse you use rockwool and gypsum and perforate it yourself (with a machine gun AK 47 hahahaha)

[avare]

[quote=andrebrito;2751121]

Of couse you use rockwool and gypsum and perforate it yourself (with a machine gun AK 47 hahahaha)

You hit upon a very important point. Is the labour being paid for or is it do it yourself? We need an answer to that.

Andre