Covering ENTIRE room with 703 or 705...?

[666666]

Just wondering... for a small room with a low ceiling where pretty loud tracking may have to take place, how might the room sound / respond if ALL walls and the ENTIRE ceiling was covered with 4" of 703 or 705? (just a short pile carpet on floor)

I have been in small rooms that were covered entirely with 3" or 4" of Auralex style acoustical foam and the rooms sounded TERRIBLE. You guys I'm sure can imagine what they sounded like... any and all life was completely sucked out of the room, plus lots of lower-end mud etc... very bad.

So I am dealing with a small room and need as much treatment as possible to deal with high SPLs at almost all frequencies. I don't think I want to have any sheetrock exposed AT ALL as I don't think it will do anything good for sound. I don't think diffusors will be a good idea either because the room is just really small... too small for even diffusion... I think I need maximum absorption, period... but good even absorption of course.

So... has anyone ever completely covered an entire small room with 703 or 705??? Reports? Comments? Opinions?

If this seems like an "ok" idea, which material might be better - 703 or 705? I guess there's mineral wool too. ???

And what would be best to cover the 703 or 705 with? Special material...?

I just don't want to wind up with a situation where the room sounds "goofy" like when you cover a room with Auralex.... now that is a bad idea... hoping that 703 or 705 will be way better even with 100% of it.

Thanks in advance.

[avare]

High SPL has nothing to do with room acoustics treatment. 703 is better than 705, but not by much. Mineral wool can be used just as well. Use one step denser than fiberglass. You do not want to treat the entire walls. As you wrote that sucks the life out of the room.

Andre

[666666]

Thanks. Well, I was hoping that maybe 703 for instance would not "suck the life" out as much as acoustical FOAM. I know that foam eats mostly upper-end stuff and is not so great at eating lower-end stuff, very un-even absorption. That type of absorption surely "sucks the life" out. But 703 seems to be more even in absorption properties so I thought maybe it would not suck the life out as much.

So another question would be, if covering the ENTIRE room with 703 will suck the life out, roughly what percentage of the room / ceiling should be covered with 703 for a good response? (remember, room is SMALL with low ceiling, will probably be tracking a loud drumset in there, can't have nasty close reflections or other unpleasant frequency build-up).

What should exist on the remaining percentage of the walls / ceiling? Right now the walls are sheetrock (yuck)... to me, nothing good can come from sound bouncing off sheetrock... even a small bit. Should I cover the remaining sheetrock with thick wood paneling perhaps? I could add thin diffusors, but for the money, I have to question whether they will actually help the situation being that the room is so small. Regular wood paneling would be cheaper. And I cannot put anything on the walls / ceiling that sticks out more than 4"... If I have 4" of stuff on all walls, that eats 8" total off my room dimensions.... that's all I can afford to lose.... and 4" on ceiling is also ok but not more... or I'll darned near be scraping my head.

Side note... yeah, I know, small rooms are terrible, I should just go find a big room... but obtaining a big room is not possible right now. I HAVE done decent work in very small rooms before, so I am confident this will work for my specific purpose AS LONG AS I treat the room really well. I don't like big boomy ultra reverby room sounds on drums anyway... I prefer more of a 1970's tight dry intimate up-close drum sound with very little verb, so... a small room is actually ok for me.

[avare]

How much should be covered? Just enough. What do you expect with no dimensions?

If like a dead sound, then cover everything. 703 etc will absorb down to 125 Hz effectively.

Andre

[jayfrigo]

Covering the entire room is usually not a great idea. It not only sounds unnatural, but the low frequency energy is much harder to absorb unless you treat with thick panels with air spaces behind. Even then, it's not foolproof, and you lose area inside the room as well.

Maybe as a compromise, if you still have your heart set on loads of 703 in there and no drywall showing, cover every other panel with pegboard (and fabric I assume). That will get a bit of energy back in the room. You can also use ply and cut or drill holes or openings yourself and then stain if you want to get more aesthetically interesting. There are variables having to do with perforated panel absorbers that I'd rather not get into right now... You can also use 1x4 wooden slats running horizontally to cover 50% area over the 703 on the walls. Alternate soft and hard on opposite walls, so if the top 4" is soft one one side, the top 4" is hard on the other. This retains some energy and adds a bit more complexity to the reflections. Again, you could actually design a slat/slot trap configuration and put a cavity behind, and even calculate a varied spacing for broader coverage, but again, more complex than appropriate for this. I'm just talking seat-of-the-pants stuff here which I think is what you're after.

With more info, dimensions, budget, and an idea of how complex you want to get, we might be able to suggest other things, like a proper trap at one end, or some other techniques as appropriate. Also, remember not to confuse isolation with reflection control.

[Rick Sutton]

I've been in a room exactly like you described. It was absolutely awful. Nothing sounded good in it.

On the other hand, my drum booth has more 703 in it than I care to admit but the back wall has a splayed diffuser that helps quite a bit. You need some variation in surfaces or the room just gets too strange.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by 666666

how might the room sound / respond if ALL walls and the ENTIRE ceiling was covered with 4" of 703 or 705?

I'll offer an opposing opinion.

As I see it, covering an entire room with thick rigid fiberglass is the best route to a flat low frequency response with minimal ringing. But it has to be thick - at least 4 inches thick if not 12 - and the corners should definitely be thicker. At least half of the fiberglass should be covered with cardboard or thin plastic to prevent making the room totally dead at mid and high frequencies. I'd leave the fiberglass uncovered at the side wall and ceiling reflection points, and the entire rear wall, and cover all or most of the rest with cardboard etc.

--Ethan

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

I'll offer an opposing opinion.

As I see it, covering an entire room with thick rigid fiberglass is the best route to a flat low frequency response with minimal ringing. But it has to be thick - at least 4 inches thick if not 12 - and the corners should definitely be thicker. At least half of the fiberglass should be covered with cardboard or thin plastic to prevent making the room totally dead at mid and high frequencies. I'd leave the fiberglass uncovered at the side wall and ceiling reflection points, and the entire rear wall, and cover all or most of the rest with cardboard etc.

--Ethan

Be careful with the thin plastic. The room with 100% 703 that I experienced used way too much thin plastic on top and in addition to the dead feeling in the room there was an annoying Zing as the very high frequencies richoceted off the plastic.

I'd use wood slats to add back some controlled bounce.
In my drum booth wood slats are applied to sheet rock that is angled in an accordian pattern that spreads the bounce. This is applied on about 60% of the back wall.
And for heaven's sake don't put thick carpet on the floors! Still think that at least
some diffusion is helpful to make the room bearable for humans!

[DanDan]

Small rooms can be nighmarish. Concrete walls, floor etc. are the worst.
We would need more info to make accurate suggestions but...

Treat all the corners, floor to ceiling. Manufactured Corner Traps are good, Superchunks work really well. (studiotips - tips on studio design, acoustics, and wiring)
Make a chessboard of 703 slabs on the walls. Opposite walls should have one absorbent, one bare. This will halve your 703 bill! Thicker 703 will reach down into the frequency band and hit the honk. If your walls are Plasterboard/sheetrock, areas of fabric might be enough to remove the Pings and Twangs of flutter echo. Try mounting throws and bedspreads on tall boom stands, clap your hands to test. If the floor is hard, treat the ceiling more. Total 703 covering would be good here. Plywood sheets are very useful for localised treatment. Under a drumkit for that Neil Young barn sound. Angled against a will will remove flutter echo while keeping a woody liveness.
Good luck with it,
Dan FitzGerald AMIOA
SoundSound - Homepage

[DreamSound]

I'm in a similar situation but with a bigger room and more than enough mineral wood, 703 and foam .

I think instead of 703 the whole room it will be safer to 703 half of the room per DanDan's advice and then fine tune by adding and taking from there and doing lots listening/recording tests.

Also, Ethan has been doing this for a long time and is older than all of us combined (kidding! ) so you might want to listen to his advice as well

[666666]

I appreciate the replies - thanks!

Well, one important thing to consider here...

In my case, the room is terribly small, and I hope to not have any evidence of the room size in the recordings. If I have any reflections at all, unless they were severely diffused (which is hard or impossible to do in a small room due to space constraints) I would think the room size may be revealed on tape... not good.

And yes, I will be depending heavily on good outboard reverb later on... and/or will be re-amping the drum bus into a large room and recording.

My original goal of covering the entire room with 703 was to indeed achieve a "flat" as possible overall response, but also to "hide" the room size from the microphones. Perhaps "sucking the life out" of the room is necessary in order to achieve this. ???

I guess the only way to truly answer the question in my specific case is to, as some of you have suggested, start with maybe 50% 703 covering and then test / experiment and fine tune until it "works".

I also like the idea, as some have suggested, of maybe covering the whole room with 703, but then adding some wood panels etc OVER the 703 to put some life back into the room. But again, I am questioning if "life" = "ugly close reflections" that can potentially cause phase issues.... yes, the room is that small.

Room... ummm... we're talking about 11.5' wide by 18' long, with a ceiling just under 7'. Hey, sometimes you just gotta deal with what you've got. Real estate is expensive. But I have faith. I've done recordings in rooms that were actually smaller and was successful, so... it can work... it's just that much more tricky.

Keep the comments coming. I'll be sure to report back with results once it's all together. I'll probably be sheet-rocking next week, etc.... still have a bit of work left before the inner treatment goes up... trying to plan ahead.

[DanDan]

I understand the feeling against Sheetrock. However sonically it is not much different to painted or varnished wood. It is easily controlled. Light tongue and groove varnished wood is an attractive alternative with a nicer 'feel' and IMHO a 'nice' acoustic. Slats with treatment and fabric would sound and look good. This is similar to the pegboard and other ideas mentioned. You can see this type of thing at John Sayers site.
Focus.
The final goal is a balance.
First treat the corners with most of your resources and energy. 34inch SuperChunks are good. Wood slats across look great.
Ceiling and side reflection points are next. 2 inches of treatment should be plenty. Do the chessboard thing. If you are really feeling it, I don't see any great reason not to treat the whole ceiling.
At this point listen. Handclaps will easily reveal any flutter echo. A sheet of 703 wrapped in fabric is very useful here. Clap, find a twang, get a friend to move the 703 until a spot that nukes it is found. Honks can be provoked by grunting. Go on, you know you want to :-) Vary your grunt pitch to provoke high booms and honks. Again the 703 can be moved around to find the taming spot. This may all read as quite idiotic. However, I found the claps and honks to be of similar use to Measurement and Calculation in achieving my White Room. SoundSound - Gear
You will probably end up with quite a lot of treatment, but with placement based on observed twangs, honks etc. When they are gone you should have a room which will to make itself inaudible on your recordings. Localised panels can be placed around (and above) vocals or other sources which like extreme deadness. Localised ply panels can be placed around drums for the opposite effect. I have heard of rocks from the beach under snare drums.....

Good Luck, DD

PS:- Maybe I am even OLDER than Ethan......

[andrebrito]

Covering a room entirely with 703 or 705 turns your room into a kind of anechoic space. You will end up with the same problem as covering a room with foam.

There are studios build under those principles but they have at least two flat surfaces, mounted speakers and are large control rooms.

My suggestion for small studios is bass traps, first point reflections and maybe some diffusers just to give a bit of "nice sonic environment" to the room. Or just skip the diffusers.

A side note: Sheetrock when mounted over studs with mineral wool has some absorption. I did place the coefficients on another recent thread where there was a discussion regarding concrete absorption, but I can't find it

[Rokus666]

I know you guys were saying that 703 is better than 705 because it has more even response. I have just rebuilt my accoustics and used 705 panels in the 4 corners(4x2ft 4" thick) and 703 2" thick at the early reflection points.
Is it good to use combination of those two ? Will that make a significant difference ?

[DanDan]

That will work fine. The comparisons of 703 vs 705 have been very well done elsewhere. I presume your 705 panels are straddling the corners? Do you have two in each corner, i.e. floor to ceiling? I hope so, more is better.
There is evidence to suggest that the foil covered product (either density) performs very well, particularly in that corner location. For a little extra performance you could fill the corner gap behind the straddling panels with loose attic insulation.
Best Regards, DD
SoundSound - Homepage

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by 666666

I appreciate the replies - thanks!

Well, one important thing to consider here...

In my case, the room is terribly small, and I hope to not have any evidence of the room size in the recordings. If I have any reflections at all, unless they were severely diffused (which is hard or impossible to do in a small room due to space constraints) I would think the room size may be revealed on tape... not good.

And yes, I will be depending heavily on good outboard reverb later on... and/or will be re-amping the drum bus into a large room and recording.

My original goal of covering the entire room with 703 was to indeed achieve a "flat" as possible overall response, but also to "hide" the room size from the microphones. Perhaps "sucking the life out" of the room is necessary in order to achieve this. ???

I guess the only way to truly answer the question in my specific case is to, as some of you have suggested, start with maybe 50% 703 covering and then test / experiment and fine tune until it "works".

I also like the idea, as some have suggested, of maybe covering the whole room with 703, but then adding some wood panels etc OVER the 703 to put some life back into the room. But again, I am questioning if "life" = "ugly close reflections" that can potentially cause phase issues.... yes, the room is that small.

Room... ummm... we're talking about 11.5' wide by 18' long, with a ceiling just under 7'. Hey, sometimes you just gotta deal with what you've got. Real estate is expensive. But I have faith. I've done recordings in rooms that were actually smaller and was successful, so... it can work... it's just that much more tricky.

Keep the comments coming. I'll be sure to report back with results once it's all together. I'll probably be sheet-rocking next week, etc.... still have a bit of work left before the inner treatment goes up... trying to plan ahead.

I can say from personal experience that trying to "remove" the room for the equation with anything transient intensive is the wrong way to think about treating your space.

Your space is part of the recording. You've gotta embrace it. It is an instrument. You need to tune it and tweak it in such a way that it's a GOOD sounding small room rather than an invisible room. You're never going to be able to remove the room. The human ear is very good at picking up on subtle cues in space and dimension and even treatment (which is why we wank on over outboard reverbs for days). Over treating your space will make it sound "weird" for lack of a better term. I know. I've tried it. Concentrate on giving your acoustic space personality rather than fretting over ruler flat freq response. There's a bit of an art to it. I agree with DanDan. Do some grunt and clap tests! Integrate different materials to change the aesthetics of the room sound... bass traps, woods, metals... alter the dimensions of the big boxy room you have with materials.

The best small room spaces have a tight, but slightly reflective sound... no ringing, but a little slap is OK and will liven up the tracks.

There's nothing worse for a mix engineer than trying add life back into a dead recording by cranking the high end and adding distortion to get some excitement back... it almost never sounds the way it should.

Best of luck to ya!

[yarrick19]

What about covering an isolation booth in 703? I have a small iso booth that is about 5'x5'x9' that gets used for vocals and guitar cabs and I was thinking of covering it with 703. The room has some foam (gag ) in there now and while it stops the slap back echos the room is pretty boomy - probably due to the lack of low end being absorbed. Do you think in this type of situation it makes since to have a lot of coverage with 703?

(I have though about putting some thin pieces of plastic over certain sections to reflect some of the high end frequencies - good idea for a booth or keep it dead?)

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by yarrick19

What about covering an isolation booth in 703? I have a small iso booth that is about 5'x5'x9' that gets used for vocals and guitar cabs and I was thinking of covering it with 703. The room has some foam (gag ) in there now and while it stops the slap back echos the room is pretty boomy - probably due to the lack of low end being absorbed. Do you think in this type of situation it makes since to have a lot of coverage with 703?

(I have though about putting some thin pieces of plastic over certain sections to reflect some of the high end frequencies - good idea for a booth or keep it dead?)

Yep. I've experimented with that as well. In some of the more modern whisper room booths the boominess can be unbearable. (5 x 5 x 9 are some rough dimensions too!). I would recommend bass traps just to cut the low-mid womp. When I had a booth I stuck a 2" thick trap diagonally in the rear corner and then a large 4" trap on the wall in front of the vocalist. This did a lot to tame the low-mids. If you have room for 3 traps, that'd probably be even better. Anything you can do to break up the dimensions would be helpful as well.

Foam is pretty much unnecessary because the cloth they use to wrap the walls and ceiling kills all of the high end anyways. I actually ended up putting some hardwood floor panels on the floor of my booth with good effect.

[Rokus666]

For a little extra performance you could fill the corner gap behind the straddling panels with loose attic insulation.
Best Regards, DD
SoundSound - Homepage

What's an attic insulation ?

I have 2x4ft panels sitting in the corner, not from bottom to sealing. I was afraid it would kill the room too much. Also I got this weird shape on the wall to the left, some railing that sticks out and creates a nasty asymmetrical shape.

Best Bass trap/Absorption/Diffusion Solution For Living rm Studio ?

Will I have to deal with a lots of resonance setting it up this way(corner gap) ? My common sense is telling me that low frequency is bouncing back from the corner to the back of bass trap after it passes the front ?
It already sounds much tighter.
My mixes were projecting well enough before the treatment, now it just became a pleasure to listen to the low frequencies and detailed reverb.

[DanDan]

Rokus, if you are happy with the way it is now, well done.
Attic insulaton is the light fluffy fibreglass that is laid between the joists in the attic, i.e. over the ceiling, under the roof.
You might take a look at the Superchunk designs at studiotips.com. You will get a fuller understanding there.
More Bass trapping improves the quality and perceived amount of bass in the room. More is better. I have never heard of anyone with too much Bass Trapping.
Best, DD

[Rokus666]

Thank god I have cement sealing and floor with tiles.

And pretty fortunate to have a double sheetrock wall with a kitchen behind front end. That should contribute bass absorption I think.

Maybe I should put some fluffy fiberglass in the corners and staple it firm.
I was affraid that I would dead the room with too much panels laying around.

Right now I have 5 pieces of 705 4" thick
4 pieces of 703 2" thick

I have red that i need to build the diffusor based on some formula.
Right now I have guitars and a bookshelves on the back wall and that functions same as factory built diffusor. So I think it should be good for now, definitely better than before...

Well, when I buy my house, I will definitely have someone design my studio from the ground up. There is a lot of higly skilled proffesionals on this forum, and I wouldn't want to be the one doing all this building and calculations. Need to focus on music and musical ideas first.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by DanDan

The comparisons of 703 vs 705 have been very well done elsewhere ... There is evidence to suggest that the foil covered product (either density) performs very well, particularly in that corner location.

Yes, as shown here:

Density Report

--Ethan

[norman_nomad]

I selling the very stuff right now if anyone is interested.

Selling by the box and willing to ship:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gears...-bay-area.html

[DanDan]

Hi Ethan, Density Report- change that 'very' to extremely well done. I couldn't find that report yesterday so thanks, I have it Bookmarked now.
Hi Rokus, A cement ceiling and hard floor is not great news I am afraid. Treat the ceiling as much as you can. Even more so now, go Floor to Ceiling 705 WITH FRK plus fluffy stuff in the corners. It doesn't matter if your current 705 is without FRK, but do try to use it for the next lot.
For the fluffy stuff, loose is fine, no need to staple it firm.
Regards, DD

[Rokus666]

So, I am building extra panels to fill the whole corners from the bottom to the sealing. Also got R13 to stick in the hollow area. It's gonna be rocking !
Eastern Blok studios will soon be open for business.


Does it matter if I made the bass trap in two pieces ?
Does the wooden frame reflect frequencies ?

[slaves666]

I work in a studio that has the entire control room covered in 703 I believe. He has 2 sheets thick on each of the 3 walls. The front wall has a huge window and door, and I don't think there is any treatment. The room is 21 x 19 or so, and doesn't sound that bad. It is a little dead sounding, and at times that bothers me, but it isn't my room.