Floating room. Costs.

[kalle1978]

I'm thinking of building a floating room. I've heard of people who did it themself (using tires under the floor....).

Is it hard to do? If not, why do people pay so much to have firms... doing it? A guy I talked to paid approx 150'000 dollars, to have it done to his small studio. (control room + session room + extra sond proof room )

Now, I only need to do this, for one room. It is maximum 30 square meters, and has a tilting roof (it's a loft - I think that's the english word for it). I don't need to build a control room, or anthing like that, just to make the room sond proof.

How much would it cost to do?

[Resonater]

Any room that is "sound proof" could basically be considered a Control Room. In the U.S., I'd figure $250-$300 per square foot to build something sound proof. That would include the construction, electrical, lighting, interior treatment, door(s) in and out of said room, provisions for HVAC, etc. You'd most likely need double wall construction, which requires several layers of drywall on each side of the double wall. This would also apply to the ceiling, which would then require Structural Engineering plans to make sure your walls could support the weight of the heavy ceiling. Basically, it's not cheap.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by Resonater

Any room that is "sound proof" could basically be considered a Control Room. In the U.S., I'd figure $250-$300 per square foot to build something sound proof.

That's the figure I've always found to be accurate.

Hey John!

[Anderson]

With the crazy increase in materials price these days it's closer to 350$/m² than 250$. Only for the structural floor that is.

It's very complicated to properly float a room - to REALLY decouple it. And to avoid creating a brand new set of problems while doing so (vibrations control, re-emissions control).

You need a guy to calculate how to decouple the room, choose materials, draw at least basic plans. You also need to have data about the building the new sound proofed shell will be in. Otherwise there is a high risk of failure.

And again, (proper / working) decoupling systems are not cheap by any means. And total man hours to build it amounts to much more than one would think.

Hence: expensive.

So it's done only when absolutely needed.

Do it right or don't do it. Doing it half-way is equivalent to throwing your money out the window. At least get proper advice from a pro. In real-life / on location - not the Internet. A qualified engineer will cost you maybe 1000-1500$ but will most probably save your a**. And your investment. :)

Good luck! Cheers!

[Dan]

Doesn't $300/ sq foot equal about $3000/sq.m?

[RedWallStudio]

Originally Posted by kalle1978

I'm thinking of building a floating room. I've heard of people who did it themself (using tires under the floor....).

Is it hard to do? If not, why do people pay so much to have firms... doing it? A guy I talked to paid approx 150'000 dollars, to have it done to his small studio. (control room + session room + extra sond proof room )

Now, I only need to do this, for one room. It is maximum 30 square meters, and has a tilting roof (it's a loft - I think that's the english word for it). I don't need to build a control room, or anthing like that, just to make the room sond proof.

How much would it cost to do?

Tires under the floor?

If you are on a concrete slab, I think you can spend your money in much better ways vs. a floating floor. Usually double wall contructions with multiple layers of 5/8 drywall (with green glue between layers) and acoustic sealant caulk, double doors etc is sufficient to isolate. If you feel the need to isolate the floor, have the concrete cut with a wet saw so it is decoupled from the surrounding rooms. Personally, I think all that is nonsense and total overkill though. I don't have my floor decoupled and I don't have any issues at all.

[RedWallStudio]

btw. My drum room is right next to my control room, separated by a double wall... with two layers of 5/8 drywall on each side... and neither wall comes in contact with the other. If a drummer is wailing away on the kit, I can barely hear anything... and most of what I hear is probably coming through doors anyhow. So I'd find it hard to believe that most engineers can't live with that type of isolation...

[Clueless]

As you may know, I'm building a studio right now (see the construction thread in my .signature) with Wes Lachot as my designer. Let me share a few things I have learned in discussions with Wes,

1. Our studio site location is 100+ feet from a dead-end road that has almost no traffic, half a mile from a road that has mainly recreational traffic (to/from Jordan Lake, a major reservoir), and 1.5 miles from a major highway (that does have heavy truck traffic). For this reason we judged that the site was not susceptible to earthborne vibrations, hence no need to float the floor. If the studio were in an area with heavy truck traffic, then yes, floating the floor might be necessary. But we're not floating the floor just because Studio X has floating floors. We made the decision based on an environmental assessment.

2. As for acoustic isolation, we are taking this very seriously. Our site borders leased hunting land, so we have to be able to isolate against a gunshots. Fortunately the guns are pointed /away/ from the studio, so we only have reflected sound to deal with, but it's definitely a loud transient so...all acoustic environments are behind walls that are nearly 21" thick (8" sand or cement-filled concrete block, 4-7/8" foam insulation, another 8" sand or cement-filled concrete block). Where there are windows, they are double-paned with glass manufactured for airport lobbies (5/8" thick outer pane, 1/2" thick inner pane). We are also 25 miles from RDU, an international airport. While the planes don't seem that load, they are, and very broad spectrum, so we've got a fairly thick roof as well (I forget how many layers of gypsum board, but "enough").

3. Everything is connected. Every single decision about what to hang where, what touches what, ultimately forms some closed-loop equation. The previous posting that said "do it 100% right or don't do it at all" is spot-on. One single design or build flaw anywhere can nullify your acoustic isolation goals. And the cost of getting /everything/ right is what adds up so fast. When it comes to acoustic isolation, there can be more or less (NC30, NC20, NC10), but within a given design objective, it really is all-or-nothing.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by Resonater

Any room that is "sound proof" could basically be considered a Control Room. In the U.S., I'd figure $250-$300 per square foot to build something sound proof.

Mine was almost $400 sq/ft. ,but hell... everything is more expensive in Seattle.

Regards,
Bruce

[RedWallStudio]

Originally Posted by Clueless

As you may know, I'm building a studio right now (see the construction thread in my .signature) with Wes Lachot as my designer. Let me share a few things I have learned in discussions with Wes,

1. Our studio site location is 100+ feet from a dead-end road that has almost no traffic, half a mile from a road that has mainly recreational traffic (to/from Jordan Lake, a major reservoir), and 1.5 miles from a major highway (that does have heavy truck traffic). For this reason we judged that the site was not susceptible to earthborne vibrations, hence no need to float the floor. If the studio were in an area with heavy truck traffic, then yes, floating the floor might be necessary. But we're not floating the floor just because Studio X has floating floors. We made the decision based on an environmental assessment.

2. As for acoustic isolation, we are taking this very seriously. Our site borders leased hunting land, so we have to be able to isolate against a gunshots. Fortunately the guns are pointed /away/ from the studio, so we only have reflected sound to deal with, but it's definitely a loud transient so...all acoustic environments are behind walls that are nearly 21" thick (8" sand or cement-filled concrete block, 4-7/8" foam insulation, another 8" sand or cement-filled concrete block). Where there are windows, they are double-paned with glass manufactured for airport lobbies (5/8" thick outer pane, 1/2" thick inner pane). We are also 25 miles from RDU, an international airport. While the planes don't seem that load, they are, and very broad spectrum, so we've got a fairly thick roof as well (I forget how many layers of gypsum board, but "enough").

3. Everything is connected. Every single decision about what to hang where, what touches what, ultimately forms some closed-loop equation. The previous posting that said "do it 100% right or don't do it at all" is spot-on. One single design or build flaw anywhere can nullify your acoustic isolation goals. And the cost of getting /everything/ right is what adds up so fast. When it comes to acoustic isolation, there can be more or less (NC30, NC20, NC10), but within a given design objective, it really is all-or-nothing.

I believe there is a post on the John Sayers site about floating floors etc, where it was determined that isolating a slab had almost no appreciable effect toward isolation. Meaning that if you had a double wall, and both leaves were attached to the same concrete slab, there was no difference in isolation vs. if each leaf was attached to a concrete slab that had been cut down the middle. Bascially, the opinion was the weight of the concrete which sits on the earth, did not transfer any appreciable vibrations. Just from my studio construction, I would tend to agree with that completely. In the end, spend the time on the walls & doors and if you are on a concrete slab.. don't worry about the floors.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by kalle1978

I don't need to build a control room, or anthing like that, just to make the room sond proof.

There's more to preventing sound from leaking in and out of a room than just the floor! You also need to isolate the walls and ceiling. This is a perfect example of the weak link in a chain.

--Ethan

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by Dan

Doesn't $300/ sq foot equal about $3000/sq.m?

Oh! you're right, read a bit (much) too fast! (In Europe / metric system here)

But here it is indeed around 350$/m² for a decoupled floor structure. So, say, 15000$ for 40-45m².

Of course depending on what you use to decouple. What we use here is often a concrete based superstructure, i.e. we actually build a concrete bench / perimeter in the room on which we place a specific product (Elastomer type most of the time - best $/efficiency product). Then we lay a "new" concrete slab over a collaborant steel deck (or something similar) placed on top of that bench.

It's a bit hard to describe without a long post, but I guess most see what' i'm talking about.

Of course the elastomer properties are known and the type is adapted so we go as low as possible with the initial decoupling frequency. It usually is around 10-16Hz. Which means it'll be efficient in real life from about double that freq.

On top of that new floated floor, you build your shell.

If you're on the ground floor and you know there are no cavities under your structural concrete slabs (so, your foundations and the ususal armed concrete slabs etc are laying direct on stabilized sand / earth) then there are 95% chances you don't need decoupling since the energy will be absorbed / dampened by the earth. But you have to make sure you're in this particular case.

Mechanical transmission is nasty because it creates re-emission. So no matter how much you isolate to aerial transmission, whatever part of the building is subjected to mechanical transmission will act like a "speaker".

And you neighbour will give you some sweet love real soon.

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by RedWallStudio

I believe there is a post on the John Sayers site about floating floors etc, where it was determined that isolating a slab had almost no appreciable effect toward isolation. Meaning that if you had a double wall, and both leaves were attached to the same concrete slab, there was no difference in isolation vs. if each leaf was attached to a concrete slab that had been cut down the middle. Bascially, the opinion was the weight of the concrete which sits on the earth, did not transfer any appreciable vibrations. Just from my studio construction, I would tend to agree with that completely. In the end, spend the time on the walls & doors and if you are on a concrete slab.. don't worry about the floors.

Have seen several times where floating the floor on top of a existing concrete slab WAS necessary.
People think that thick mass will not couple vibrations, it CAN...

[kalle1978]

This would be on the top floor of a bilding, built in the early 20th century.

There would be no neighbors above, only below.

I'm avare about the ceiling, and the walls. The problem with the ceiling, is that it would be hard to have it resting on the walls, since it's tilted in two different angels.

[burst]

Originally Posted by RedWallStudio

If you feel the need to isolate the floor, have the concrete cut with a wet saw so it is decoupled from the surrounding rooms.

We utilized a simple separate concrete pour (individual slab) for the control room here at Burst HQ... no floating floors. The control room is right next to our live room.

The significant extra cost to float the floors didn't outweigh the sound transmission benefit, and since we're a private use facility (and not recording pop diva ballad vocals or a delicate symphony) it made perfect sense.

Been super happy with ours. If we had clients to please 24/7 it may have swayed our decision, though (only if we were promising to have silent noise floor at all times).

[kalle1978]

What about these solutions:

How to Install a Home Recording Studio Floating Floor

&

SAE (click on the CONSTRUCTION - link)

[dylansmale]

people don't make studios on tires, they use hockey pucks, seriously, the Counter Point Studio in Utah (which is the nicest studio in the state) did this to their studio. Your going to have to buy a lot of hockey pucks, basically start building your studio over that layer after your done doing that, but tires are out of the question.

[roscoenyc]

Originally Posted by kalle1978

This would be on the top floor of a bilding, built in the early 20th century.

There would be no neighbors above, only below.

I'm avare about the ceiling, and the walls. The problem with the ceiling, is that it would be hard to have it resting on the walls, since it's tilted in two different angels.

Noise goes down. (and everywhere else)

Get the Gravais book
Amazon.com: Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros: Rod Gervais: Books

It really is a good book. Get it and you'll be able to talk to people about what you need to do.

[Eganmedia]

There's a ton of misinformation regarding floating floor construction. There are sound (no pun intended) principles for floating a room and a properly engineered floating floor will reduce low frequency and mechanical noise issues. Talk to a studio designer. There are companies like Kinetics Noise Control who manufacture systems intended to decouple a room. They take into consideration the total mass of the structure plus the assumed weight load of the room once it has gear and people in it. That kind of stuff can be engineered and its effectiveness can be calculated prior to construction. Then you can weigh the cost/benefit ratio and decide whether it's something you can afford or want or need.

Going it alone and using a substance like rubber which will oxidize and deteriorate over time can leave you with a sunken floor and all the associated construction issues.

The concept of floating a room is sexy. The process is expensive and tedious and you may well discover it was unnecessary when all is said and done.

Now I have to go take my dog to the vet to be euthanized. Writing about studio stuff can only take your mind off such things for a short time.

[Bob Olhsson]

An approach I was impressed with was to just float the control room using neoprene on joists sitting on a slab with sand used to limit horizontal movement.

[DSD_Mastering]

This is the floor under my control room using U-boats. The floor joists were filled with sand and rock wool. The walls were built on top of the floor.

Regards,
Bruce

[Full Clip Audio]

Originally Posted by DSD_Mastering

This is the floor under my control room using U-boats. The floor joists were filled with sand and rock wool. The walls were built on top of the floor.

Regards,
Bruce

That is exactly how we did our place. We obviously did all three rooms individually with nothing touching.

The results in terms of reduction between the live room and control room are amazing! It also worked wonders in terms of keeping normal, everyday sounds out and keeping our sounds in even when cranking guitar cabs and drums at 3AM. I have found one issue though. We are in a commercial area and occasionally a semi will be idling right outside our door. When this happens, I think the floating structure actually makes it worse! When there is actually something low enough and powerful enough to get the room resonating, the fact that it is a free floating cube (not literally obviously) means that it can amplify the problem (think of how a balloon or drum vibrates). This isnt too much of an issue because it is only in those rare situations and it is only frequencies so low that you would never want them on any recording so a simple high pass is sufficient. For 95% of the time I am VERY happy.

[jwl]

The previously-mentioned thread on the Sayers forum is definitely worth reading. It takes its arguments largely from Rod Gervais' book.

The argument is, if you are going to float a floor, you need to float it correctly so that it actually does provide isolation. This entails calculating the necessary number of "pucks" you use, so that they are compressed the correct amount to provide isolation. If you get these calculations wrong, the floor won't "float" at all, but will couple vibrations directly through the pucks and to the floor below.

Furthermore, every floating floor has a resonance frequency, which is determined largely by the mass of the material. If this resonance frequency is within the audio spectrum, then it will cause problems, turning it into (as Rod calls it) a "giant drum head" which will resonate along with whatever sound is being played on it (ie, a kick drum). Adding mass will lower the resonance frequency, but the challenge will be adding enough mass to lower it below the audio spectrum.

Plus, there are mass issues to deal with. For example if you are building on the 2nd floor, then you need to make sure the structure can handle the prodigious weight of the floating floor assembly.

Anyway, read that thread, and better yet read Rod's book.

[Full Clip Audio]

Originally Posted by jwl

Furthermore, every floating floor has a resonance frequency, which is determined largely by the mass of the material. If this resonance frequency is within the audio spectrum, then it will cause problems, turning it into (as Rod calls it) a "giant drum head" which will resonate along with whatever sound is being played on it (ie, a kick drum). Adding mass will lower the resonance frequency, but the challenge will be adding enough mass to lower it below the audio spectrum.

Yep. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Luckily with our room the floor is massive enough that the frequency is probably somewhere around 20 hz. Its an incredible feeling when it starts resonating though!