My Mixes Suck: Is it me? Is it my speakers? Is it the room?

[Royalston]

Hi

I have a problem. My mixes are crap. They are listen-able, but when I listen to them in other peoples studios they tend to be muddy or occasionally having an ear piercing snare (which I have not heard at all in my studio). The mixes lack detail.

When I mix down in other people's rooms I find that I hear all sorts of things that I missed in my room (even on exactly the same model speakers). I generally do better mixes too.

Im not inexperienced - I have been writing music and mixing for several years.

I have to face the fact that either

A) I suck at mixing [highly possible]

B)my setup isn't so good

Id like to eliminate "B" from that list, so I can sleep at night knowing its me thats the problem.


My options/Ideas for fixing this problem are:

1. move the room around

2. buy some good monitors (focal twin Be 6 - I have old tannoy Reveal R1's with a 10" sub)

3. Buy some great headphones and mix on them

4. Some other option I haven't thought of.

I mix electronic music (for the majority of work).... quite bass heavy music. The gearslut inside me wants the focal twins really badly...thinking it may help. I'd ditch the sub for use with these. But perhaps these monitors would be too big for the room?
I monitor at quite low levels and occasionally turn it up.

I do reference my mixes on crappy little computer speakers and they sound pretty good...but my mixes really lack that last bit of polish and detail I hear on other peoples stuff. I want great mixes not average ones (dont we all...).

I have attached a plan of my room with detailed measurements....

Id really appreciate any advice
Thanks
R.

[James Meeker]

I'd assume it is a little of everything you mentioned.

However, the main culprit is probably skill as your post suggests to me that you haven't produced a work yet that satisfies your audio standards yet.

Keep working, keep mixing, keep listening and comparing.

The first step is realizing that your work isn't quite there yet. The people that aren't pushing themselves to get better are the ones that will never make it.

[Royalston]

thanks for the reply.

Im definitely still pushing, trying to get better. But, like I said, I've been doing it a while ( 8/9 years or so...maybe more). I know thats nothing compared to mix engineers who have been going for 30 years...but I have a feeling their mixes after 8 years were better than mine :)

I've improved a lot over the years but need ways to go further now. I can hear the difference between my mixes and pro mixes (detail, sheen and space!) - but Im currently a bit lost as how to get there. I find it very hard to bring out the good qualities of each individual sound and reduce the bad ones - something which I feel good mixers do well.

R.

[steveschizoid]

1. Talk with Glenn at GIK about set up and bass trapping. I didn't see any bass traps in what looked to be a fairly small room, and your monitoring position (i suspect) leaves much to be desired as well. Glenn will give you good advice as to how to make best use of the resources you have.

2. Realize that every sound, and every frequency of every sound, have an impact on your mix. If the mix doesn't need it, cut it somehow. It's not necessarily good or bad though - e.g. say you have a really big warm acoustic guitar sound that's great on its own, but if you have a bass guitar to mix with it, you're going to have to deal with the overlap somehow. But (as you probably know) you have to listen for the unintended consequences (phase issues and distortion) of your surgery. Izotope's Ozone is a really versatile plug in. It's the only one I've got that allows downward expansion, which is extremely useful for taming things down in a natural sounding way. It's a mutiband compressor/limiter/expander/stereoimager/harmonic exciter and delayer. I have 3 UAD-1 cards which I use primarily for compression and EQ, and Ozone allows me to keep working after I've run out of UAD-1 power. It's very powerful. Sidechaining is a powerful trick. I have a track where the drummer played his kick every beat (including the 2 and the 4 with the snare) for part of the song. It made the snare sound boxy, so I had the snare trigger a touch of compression on the kick - problem soved! You can also multiband several muddy instruments at once (bus them to one group) - so you allow a certain frequency to live in the combination, but no more than you want.

3. This might be controversial advice, but, here goes anyway: slap some sort of rough mastering chain across your stereo bus while mixing, and turn it on and off periodically. You don't want it there so you can mix carelessly, just so you can have some idea of what it might sound like after when mastered. Ideally it won't sound much different, just louder.
The better a balance you can achieve before mastering, the better it will sound afterwards - check what the pro's have to say about that if you don't believe me.

4. If I could afford them, I'd certainly buy some Focals. I have seen no complaints about them. Not one. I will be slumming along on my Hs80m's until I can afford them

[staudio]

One thing I notice about your room is that your setup is off center. I would suggest if possible moving your desk so that your head, when listening in the sweet spot, is about centered in the room (left and right). With your setup off center, you will get a lot of reflections from your right side and less from your left, this can lead to a host of issues including comb filtering and a skewed stereo image. Also getting out of the corner will reduce the amount of low end you may hear, due to corner build up. Getting more acoustic treatment is always a good idea. GIK has some very good products and I am happy with them in my room. A very good set of headphones like the Sennheiser HD600's can be very useful for critical listening and as a general reference. I always check my mixes on as many systems as possible too. The headphones are very helpful because they let me remove the room from the acoustic equation and as a result I can make better decisions about a mix. When mixing I always ask myself what is wrong with the sound, if I can answer that question then I know what the solution is (change it so that it's right). There are a lot of bad mixing habits that you should avoid, these are just a few:

Always listening loud
Always listening soft
Always boosting with EQ
Doing anything without understanding what you are trying to achieve, experimenting is OK but just don't slap a compressor on a track because you don't know what else to do.

Good luck

[Royalston]

Hey steve,
thanks for the advice! :)

How do I find Glenn at GIK? What is GIK?

My mix position does leave a lot to be desired and I would be happy to move it around (I think my speakers are too close together (that diagram is to scale).

I was worried the focals would be way too big for my room - though i would only mix with them fairly low.


I use sidechaining - very useful for electronic music.
Ozone I use too (only as a final plugin) I use it very very mildly....its interesting what you say about the expander. Ive used it a little but I generally err on the side of caution and dont do any multiband compression....which leads me to an issue I have...

One thing I find at the moment is this: I watched a video (in my mix room) where a guy is adjusting compression, eq etc -its a mixing tutorial. When he gets to the finer details - eqing, and compression of individual elements, I honestly cannot hear the difference in what he's done. I can see the faders/ knobs being moved in Logic. Its a clear, good sounding video - I should be able to hear the changes he's making - but I cant. In this room/ these speakers/ my ears - these small fader movements and subtle compression are all but impossible to hear.

This means at the moment I can only accurately make large macro decisions about my mix. I just cant trust detail. Compression is really risky because I can barely hear it! (unless its over done). Doing multi-band compression is like walking blind. I hear this detail at other studios I work in so I dont think its me (not completely).....needless to say - its driving me nuts :)

R.

[Royalston]

thanks staudio
good advice:)

(just saw your post)

[AMIEL]

I think must be a bit of everything....maybe just need more focus, practice more and treat your room and get better monitors and a great monitor section ...so that can energies your desire to work more and be better.
The question would be how much better are your mixes when you mix in other rooms?

Good luck!

[Royalston]

The question would be how much better are your mixes when you mix in other rooms?

Good point Amiel...hmmm. Lots of good points here.

Anyone think decent headphones are a good option?

[producerwillj]

You need a proper acoustic environment.
Until you've created one, try mixing at lower volumes in general.

In the mean time, just keep on working and devellop your skills.

Holla
Will

[inthere]

Dude, just get out of the corner, it's a wonder you haven't heard Jesus talking to you with that setup. Move your entire setup to the opposite wall and center the speakers. Put the couch on the other wall opposite your setup and next to the door.


You know how you want your mixes to sound and you're getting what you want but you're hearing it wrong because you have bad monitor placement.

[inthere]

Originally Posted by Royalston

Good point Amiel...hmmm. Lots of good points here.

Anyone think decent headphones are a good option?

Because I travel a lot, I mix almost exclusively on headphones with few problems. I use a tube headphone amp (Earmax Pro) because tubes aren't as harsh on my ears and Sennheiser HD 595's. The 600's and the 650's are higher up in the line, but while the 600's are a bit warmer and better vs ear fatigue they're not loud enough for me, the 650's are louder but not as warm as the 600's. 595's are louder than both but lack the smoother highs of the 650, but I like the option of being able to go louder with the 595's.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by Royalston

I do reference my mixes on crappy little computer speakers and they sound pretty good...but my mixes really lack that last bit of polish and detail I hear on other peoples stuff. I want great mixes not average ones (dont we all...).

At the danger of overstating the obvious.....but are you comparing your mixes to commercially released ones that are mastered? While mastering can't do any magic it certainly can add the final polish to a mix that might be just the difference you're hearing.

And while I also agree with what others have said that it's probably 'a bit of everything' it could also be that you are only pretty realistic and self-critical which is a good thing IMO. Too many people say 'My mixes are great, why am I not famous' when in reality most of us KNOW what the difference between an 'o.k' mix and a great one is.

Just keep doing it and it's my experience that little improvements add up. Maybe some room treatment is needed or you might change your monitoring, etc. Do it in small steps and don't fall for salesmen that want to sell you 'ultimate' solutions that are mainly helpful for their own bank accounts.

Another tip: Try to work on some totally different music than what you're accustomed to, even if it is just for practice. Record a singer/songwriter or some clssical players, even listening to say classical music might really put you into a different headspace and might inspire new ways of mixing electronic music.

Working with 'natural' instrument might improve your sense of room placement and balance.

[Royalston]

great comments! This has been very very helpful

Dude, just get out of the corner, it's a wonder you haven't heard Jesus talking to you with that setup. Move your entire setup to the opposite wall and center the speakers. Put the couch on the other wall opposite your setup and next to the door.

I hear and will obey. very good call. I haven't heard from Jesus yet though.

Another tip: Try to work on some totally different music than what you're accustomed to, even if it is just for practice. Record a singer/songwriter or some clssical players, even listening to say classical music might really put you into a different headspace and might inspire new ways of mixing electronic music.

I've been doing this a lot lately. I've been mixing a lot of non electronic stuff and it definitely helps. My mixes (and music) tend to be better when I don't know the "rules of the genre". They probably still suck, but I don't know it because I don't know anything similar enough to compare it to. Also, like you said, the challenge of dealing with "real-world" recordings and all their nuances is a new set of challenges.

I know its not mastering that is the issue...I hear plenty of unmastered stuff that beats mine hands down mix wise (even if the song sucks). Ive even had stuff mixed down by friends( and been shocked/ happy/ depressed by how much better it sounds) Im also very wary of gear salesmen...Im definitely not blaming the gear on this issue. (although I do have some strong gear lust for the Focal Twins...stupid, i know)

One thing I was hoping about the Focal twins was that it might do away with the need for a sub. I need to hear that low for the msuic i write, but this thing sits under my desk and, although its pretty quiet, it just feels....flabby and soft and out of place.

I will definitely re-arrange the room
I will look into headphones too.

Any more ideas?
Keep it coming :)

(Thank you all btw, this has been really useful)

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Royalston

Hey steve,
thanks for the advice! :)

How do I find Glenn at GIK? What is GIK?



R.

I am right here!!! Our company website is on my sig if you would like to take a look.
You would be amazed how well you would do if you room was set up right (mix spot) and if treated with proper acoustics. Trust me there is could be some tricks you can learn about mixing but if the room is right it makes every thing come together.
See the following page for some ideas on room set up. GIK Acoustics: Room Setup

Glenn

[macleodgrant]

definitely get yourself a very good pair of headphones, don't skimp!
i use a pair of Sony MDR 7509 and for me they're amazing.

if you're lacking clarity and separation then you need to use high pass filters & low shelf filters to clean up the individual tracks

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by Royalston

Hi

I have a problem. My mixes are crap. They are listen-able, but when I listen to them in other peoples studios they tend to be muddy or occasionally having an ear piercing snare (which I have not heard at all in my studio). The mixes lack detail.

When I mix down in other people's rooms I find that I hear all sorts of things that I missed in my room (even on exactly the same model speakers). I generally do better mixes too.

I see that you take the entire mix and mix it down in other studios. You go on to say that details is missing and the sounds is muddy from you own studio.

Call someone at the other studios and get the name of their converters. What converter are you using?

--Al

[Royalston]

Im using a fireface 800...nothing too bad there. the other studios both had protools - 192 and the other a digi002...

Ill blame myself before the machines...

I though It may also just be bad sound choice/ arrangement (it is in someolder cases) - but even in relatively simple songs (where I should be able to make any combo of the few sounds work) I have these problems.

[Weasel9992]

I'll just add to what Glenn already said: you can't mix what you can't hear. It's an old axiom, but it's true. The best monitoring chain in the world won't do you a lick of good if your room is lying to you. Of course, the best option is a balanced approach with a properly treated room *and* a fantastic monitoring chain.

Frank

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by Royalston

Good point Amiel...hmmm. Lots of good points here.

Anyone think decent headphones are a good option?

Hi!

I think headphones are an additional option....and can be great as another way to check your mixes...Besides that is nothing like to mix in a great acoustic space with great monitoring.

The situation for me is that with mixes you don't feel the same way the energy of your mix and how the mix translates in a real acoustic space! ..I love to feel the energy of the music, to feel the bass and how that resonates in the body.

[datune]

I'm not an expert, but I can tell you this much, changing your mix position as adviced will already help a lot.

Before you spent money on new speakers, I really recommend you spend it on trying to improve your room. The difference can be HUGE, in fact, I dare say that no different monitor in the world can provide so much "in your face" improvement as acoustical treatment (especially if you mix bass heavy music).

There is LOADS of information regarding that subject here on the forum, and there's even a couple acoustical experts on gearslutz too.

[jwl]

I recently wrote an article that you might find useful:

Three First Steps Toward A Good-Sounding Room

I think all 3 steps in that article will help. Rearrange your room, add bass trapping, create a Reflection-Free Zone. Those 3 ideas get you 95% of the way there.

[Royalston]

really great site and advice jwl...

I especially like the non toxic Cotton absorber idea- the bass traps Im using (foam wedges and slabs) reeked so badly of fire retardant (a neurotoxin apparently) when I got them...I had to leave many of them outside for days till the stink wore off...I fear they are still exuding poisonous gases..and the look terrible too (dark grey).

I hope I can find this cotton slab stuff in australia.