First time room treatment - start-up advice needed

[hum-free]

Hi there!

After lots of helpful posts regarding my studio gear upgrade, I'd like to ask you if you can help me just a little bit with treating my room.

After being convinced that room treatment is not only necessary for pro studio owners, I'm really not sure where to start. To me buying some new piece of equipment is way easier to handle than treating my room

This chapter of engineering still seems to me like some sort of voodoo!?!

But anyway, I think I'm old enough for voodoo right now, so here we go!

I just outlined my room, but let me first say a little bit about it.

This is no living room. Formerly it was used as a rehearsal room for bands, nowadays I use it for teaching and for recording. It sits in the basement of a big old industrial building, and it's still got a bit of this "industrial" feeling in it stike

The stone floor's got cheapest carpeting on it.

The unusual thing in this rooms is the walls. Most walls are completely covered with carpeting (a tad better quality than the floor carpeting). The carpeting's used as kind of a wallpaper substitute. You can see the carpeting areas in the drawing.

The ceiling is from stone too, but it's not flat, it has kind of "bows" in it (don't know how to describe that, I hope you can imagine...).

In my drawing you can see my momentary mixing position. As the rest of the room is used for teaching/chilling, it would be nice if the new mixing position could be anywhere near the old one. Although, if that doesn't get me optimal results, of course I'm willing to switch positions...

So here is my drawing...



I hope someone can give me advice. I'm really not sure how and where to start...

If it's helpful, I can post some pictures later on!?!

Greetings

Hum-Free

[manthe]

If you use Auralex's free consulting, you'll also need to add the ceiling height and a layout of furniture ans instruments. ANYTHING that can reflect sound is going to be a factor in your treatment design. Even something as seemingly innocuous as a guitar stand w/guitar can and does have an effect on the sound in the room.

Also, give measurements on your listening area. Try to be as specific as possible. Items such as distance from walls, distance between speakers, distance your head is from speakers, etc, etc.

This info will also help us help you a lot better.

[gainstages]

boy, thats a bit difficult. so many issues. not knowing what all you want to do in the room is a challenge also,.

regardless of what your intentions for the room are, why don't you have your mix position centered from left to right. I'd start by doing that.

You might have to do this in phases depending on your budget. If it were me, I think i'd start by putting two big bass traps in the corners in front of and behind your mix area, put up a cloud over your head (probably (2) 2'x4' panels) and put up panels at the first reflection points. I would be willing to bet that this will make a HUGE difference instantly in your listening environment.

from there, I'd figure out what my goals are for the room as a whole - whether that be building new walls and ceiling inside on top of the stone and subdividing the room, or not, and nail down what you want to do - tracking, mixing, mastering, etc so that you can treat the room or each section properly.

the good thing is, if you invest in some panels, you'll have an immediate improvement that can hold you over while you work on your bigger plan. then, when/if you redo the whole room, your panels can be put right back up, so it's not a wasted investment.

so, without knowing more about your budget, goals, plans, etc, that's my generic answer for now...

[johndykstra]

This is advice from a novice, not an acoustitician...so keep that in mind; I kinda want to see if my thinking is correct, so I'd like to see what people think of my ideas. I think your ideal mix position should be in the upper right of your diagram, not the outside corner, but the fully carpeted one, 45 degree angle in the corner. Mix position where it lies gives you early reflections on the right...too unbalanced. When treating my room, I started with bass traps. As many as I could fit in the corners without blocking doors/windows. After the traps were in place, I listened for balance with my high/low response. After determining how much high freq absorbtion I wanted, I just started hanging up panels I built myself. (you can see them in my avatar). Basically framed rigid glass covered in carpet. I found as I hung my diy panels i was pleased to find how much my high freq. absorbers further tightened my bass reponse as well. As a result, I found myself with a few extra panels, that I built stands for and use as portible gobos. My point in expressing this is that I think you should just start building stuff. There are many threads dedicated to panel construction, and in my opinion you can't have too many, unless you use all of your money. If this doesn't help then at least I can get some constructive critisism on my thinking.

[hum-free]

You can't imagine how happy I am having found a forum like this! Really fantastic, thank you!

Here is a little upgrade to my first drawing:



The room height is approximately 8.5 ft.

Moving away from the upper wall to the center of the room is the first thing I will do. (That's the most easy thing to do, I guess )

My goal is primarily having a best-as-can-get mixing place, so I can really hear what's going on in my mix. At first I only wanted to upgrade my hardware, but then I was told quite often, that this makes only sense when my room's treated well.

I'd be even happier if I could get decent vocal recordings within my room.

I'm focusing on Pop/Rock songs, with drums only coming from BFD2, so there is absolutely no need for recording drums.

One more question: What do you think about the carpeting on the walls? Does it help acoustically or does it make the sound even worse?

Greetings

Hum-Free

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by hum-free

Here is a little upgrade to my first drawing:

You need to place your speakers evenly left and right in the room, as was already mentioned. So slide the desk over the left some.

What do you think about the carpeting on the walls? Does it help acoustically or does it make the sound even worse?

Carpet on walls is bad because it absorbs only higher frequencies. That skews the response in the room. You need broadband absorption, and plenty of bass traps. Here's the basics - All rooms need:

* Broadband (not tuned) bass traps straddling as many corners as you can manage, including the wall-ceiling corners. More bass traps on the rear wall behind helps even further. You simply cannot have too much bass trapping. Real bass trapping, that is - thin foam and thin fiberglass don't work to a low enough frequency.

* Mid/high frequency absorption at the first reflection points on the side walls and ceiling.

* Some additional amount of mid/high absorption and/or diffusion on any large areas of bare parallel surfaces, such as opposing walls or the ceiling if the floor is reflective. Diffusion on the rear wall behind you is also useful in larger rooms.

For the complete story see my Acoustics FAQ.

There's a lot of additional non-sales technical information on my company's site - articles, videos, test tones and other downloads - linked under my name below.

--Ethan

[hum-free]

Okay, after moving the desk I'm gonna start with the bass traps, I think. Regarding my drawing - do I need bass traps even in my "sofa area"? Or only in those areas of my room, that I can see when turning around on my mixing chair?

And then one question regarding mid-/high frequency absorbers:

Is it okay to have these absorbers in front of the wall-carpet? Or does that have bad influence on the absorbers?

And something I forgot to mention: The room's for rent, so I don't want to make permanent changes to it.

Greetings

Hum-Free

[Ethan Winer]

Forget the wall carpet. If your place catches fire your insurance company will weasel out of settling because your place wasn't up to code. Spend the time to read my FAQ and other materials, and before long you'll be an expert.

--Ethan

[johndykstra]

Yeah, how's that carpet mounted? What's under it? Will the landlord mind if it "disappears"? You'd be better off with out it for sure.

[hum-free]

I was afraid you'd be saying something like that.

It was me who covered the walls with carpets.

When I got into the room, it looked like it has been some death metal band rehearsal room before. Imagine a room that has been modified by dozens of (amateur) bands in dozens of years, and every band thought to have the perfect idea how the room has to look. And in every single band seemed to be at least one amateur handcraftsman wanting to leave his "fingerprint". Every wall looked way different, on some walls you could still see the insulation material.

As my goal was having a room for teaching electric guitar and bass, I didn't care much about sound design. I needed a room that looks and feels familiar for the guys coming to me to learn playing guitar. And it had to be as cheap as possible.

Now, as im getting into the room treatment thing, I still need to have the room look familiar, as I still need to teach in this room. So I would be very happy if I could leave the carpets where they are, cos otherwise I'd have to invest in building real walls first, before I could start treating the room.

I'll be posting some pics soon, that may help a little...

Greetings

Hum-Free

[hduncan]

Ethan, I too was thinking of draping some dense fabric on my rear wall to keep it from reflecting HF back at me and smearing my stereo image. Why would this not be a good idea (other than that it skews the frequency response of the room?)

I am going to continue buying your MiniTraps for the wall to wall corners and wall to ceiling corners, and another HF MiniTrap for the ceiling first reflection point. I already have the side wall reflection points treated. Doesn't the rear wall play a big role in the stereo image?


EDIT: By the way- Hum-Free, I bought two of Ethan's HF MiniTraps a week ago and just set them in my room on top of two trashbins to get them roughly into the right position. AMAZING what simply tossing them in here has done to my room.. Acoustics has to be the single most underrated modification for a project studio. I am putting off ALL gear transactions until my room is properly treated. It makes total sense when you think about how messed up the bias is in our rooms. The best gear in the WORLD will mean nothing if you don't have them in the proper environment!

[Glenn Kuras]

Ethan, I too was thinking of draping some dense fabric on my rear wall to keep it from reflecting HF back at me and smearing my stereo image. Why would this not be a good idea (other than that it skews the frequency response of the room?)

Heavy draping on the back wall will only help with the HF. For the back wall it is always a good idea (depending on room size) to put 4" panels to help with nulls and peaks, in the low end, coming from that area.

Glenn

[hduncan]

What about the reflection point? I know I should put bass traps in the corners of the rear wall but what about the big open wall-face?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Ethan, I too was thinking of draping some dense fabric on my rear wall to keep it from reflecting HF back at me and smearing my stereo image. Why would this not be a good idea (other than that it skews the frequency response of the room?)

On the back wall especially you need absorption that extends to as low a frequency as possible. Thin absorption there will help imaging, but it won't reduce the bass peaks and nulls that also occur at the rear wall.

--Ethan

[hduncan]

What is more important at the rear wall, bass traps in the corners or bass traps mounted parallel to the walls surface?

If I wanted the best of both worlds, should I bass trap the corners as well as put panels flat against the wall (mounted 3" away of course) and THEN drape HF absorbing fabric over the bass traps?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

What is more important at the rear wall, bass traps in the corners or bass traps mounted parallel to the walls surface?

It's all important, and I have both in my studio and in my living room.

If I wanted the best of both worlds, should I bass trap the corners as well as put panels flat against the wall (mounted 3" away of course) and THEN drape HF absorbing fabric over the bass traps?

Sure.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

If I wanted the best of both worlds, should I bass trap the corners as well as put panels flat against the wall (mounted 3" away of course) and THEN drape HF absorbing fabric over the bass traps?

Sure you can do that, but if you use fabric to the front that is open celled (you can breath through it) then you don't really need anything for the HF.

Glenn

[hum-free]

Hey, it's me again

While continuing my research, some new questions came up:

I found so many different examples for building DIY basstraps, but to me, they all seemed to be a little too complicated to build - at least for my skills in craftmanship . And I didn't find some kind of "general construction guide" for basstraps. What is important for building basstraps? What material, what dimensions? Maybe someone can help me out with a link?

I don't care at all about the looks of the basstraps, I'd like them to be effective and - if possible - easy to build.

So, who knows that "golden link"?

Greetings

Hum-Free

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by hum-free

Hey, it's me again

While continuing my research, some new questions came up:

I found so many different examples for building DIY basstraps, but to me, they all seemed to be a little too complicated to build - at least for my skills in craftmanship . And I didn't find some kind of "general construction guide" for basstraps. What is important for building basstraps? What material, what dimensions? Maybe someone can help me out with a link?

I don't care at all about the looks of the basstraps, I'd like them to be effective and - if possible - easy to build.

So, who knows that "golden link"?

Greetings

Hum-Free

YouTube - How to make a Bass Trap Acoustic Panel (Tutorial)

awesome video...very simple. you can do this, but if you cut off your fingers don't sue me

[hduncan]

Ethan, I believe it was your bass traps that have HF reflective material on them so that a room doesn't become too dead?

Wouldnt you want the deadest room possible for mixing?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

Ethan, I believe it was your bass traps that have HF reflective material on them so that a room doesn't become too dead?

Wouldnt you want the deadest room possible for mixing?

No, you don't necessarily want a totally dead room. In the case of my company's bass traps, the semi-reflective front surface also increases absorption at bass frequencies.

--Ethan

[hduncan]

I don't understand why you wouldnt want a totally flat room to mix in... isnt the most optimal listening environment one where the audio hits your ears from the direct (air-only) path and from nowhere else? no reflections interfering with your perception?

I can understand having a little reflection in a recording room, because you dont want it to sound so sterile, but in the control room?

[tubeman]

i recently attended a seminar with a swiss acoustician as the speaker...he said that if absolutely nothing else and very little budget, build some sort of a diffuser for the back wall, a diffuser that is correctly built given the room characteristics. i suppose this doesn't resolve any mode/null issues, so not sure if this is sound advice (pun intended i guess!), but just wanted to put it out there to see what others thought regarding no budget/time/etc restrictions.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

I don't understand why you wouldnt want a totally flat room to mix in...

Yes, flat! But not necessarily dead which is something very different.

I can understand having a little reflection in a recording room, because you dont want it to sound so sterile, but in the control room?

You might not be wrong, but "dead" must apply over the whole range of frequencies, not just from 1 KHz and up which is what usually happens when people over-treat a room with materials that are too thin.

--Ethan

[hduncan]

I see...

so the term "Too-Dead" refers to a room with too much HF absorption, and thus a rolling off of the HF response of the room leaving all other frequencies unattenuated = not flat.

but the absolute lack of reflections in a room isn't "Dead". Dead is the dampening of the high frequencies.

so it IS important to eliminate all reflections, but you must eliminate all reflections at all frequencies so as to maintain the Flatness of the response. Since reflections that we hear audibly tend to be the ones we focus on which tend to be the HF ones and thus can LEAD to a dead room.

Is this correct? In which case, we want zero reflections, but we dont want a dead room.

[hum-free]

Originally Posted by dykstraster@gmai

YouTube - How to make a Bass Trap Acoustic Panel (Tutorial)

awesome video...very simple. you can do this, but if you cut off your fingers don't sue me

Thank you, this is exactly what I've been looking for

I will start shopping later on today!

But I've got a question regarding the fabric mentioned in the video. Does the fabric material have influence on the overall performance of the bass traps? I mean, which kind of fabric should I get for it?

And as I still have the carpeting on the walls left and right to my mixing place, maybe it would be helpful to make the traps a little HF reflective. How can this be done?

Greetings from Germany!

Hum-Free

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

I see...

so the term "Too-Dead" refers to a room with too much HF absorption, and thus a rolling off of the HF response of the room leaving all other frequencies unattenuated = not flat.

but the absolute lack of reflections in a room isn't "Dead". Dead is the dampening of the high frequencies.

so it IS important to eliminate all reflections, but you must eliminate all reflections at all frequencies so as to maintain the Flatness of the response. Since reflections that we hear audibly tend to be the ones we focus on which tend to be the HF ones and thus can LEAD to a dead room.

Is this correct? In which case, we want zero reflections, but we dont want a dead room.

Not exactly. Dead refers to all frequencies. You couldn't make your room completely dead (i'm guessing). The amount of bass absorbtion needed for a dead room is staggeringly thick; often times an air space in the basement is coupled to the room to achieve what's known as an "anechoic" chamber. I think what the guys are trying to tell you is to treat as much bass in your room as you can, and us as much high and mid absorbtion as nessessary to achieve a flat response. Which installed in ratio with your bass traps will leave some reflection points in your room. A completely dead room will increase listener fatigue, and gives no perception to real world listening environments. It would be a neat room to have, but not one you would want to do all of your mixes in.

[johndykstra]

Originally Posted by hum-free

Thank you, this is exactly what I've been looking for

I will start shopping later on today!

But I've got a question regarding the fabric mentioned in the video. Does the fabric material have influence on the overall performance of the bass traps? I mean, which kind of fabric should I get for it?

And as I still have the carpeting on the walls left and right to my mixing place, maybe it would be helpful to make the traps a little HF reflective. How can this be done?

Greetings from Germany!

Hum-Free

Any breathable fabric will work for the traps as demonstrated. As far as making them reflective...? Don't know. I would simply hang mirrors and framed art over the carpet to achieve some reflective surfaces in your room.

[ddp]

Ethan

What do you think about the practice of hanging moving blankets on the walls and ceilings?

You can see how I did it here:
How to Dampen Reverb in a Room | Mike Whitla’s Blog

Are these materials thick enough to cut out Bass as well?
I have treated my room with these and it seems to have eliminated most of the reflection in the room.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by DarkEcho

so the term "Too-Dead" refers to a room with too much HF absorption, and thus a rolling off of the HF response of the room leaving all other frequencies unattenuated = not flat. but the absolute lack of reflections in a room isn't "Dead". Dead is the dampening of the high frequencies.

Almost - dead means dead, and a room with no reflections is dead. But you don't need absorption on every surface to kill the important reflections. What matters most are the specific reflection points. Even if the rest of the room is live, you'll still have good clarity and imaging if the reflection points are treated.

--Ethan