Semi-soundproofing basement ceiling?

[simplecarnival]

I'm planning to finish my unfinished basement studio, and was looking for some suggestions on what to do regarding semi-soundproofing the ceiling. I am not looking to soundproof things to the same extent as a commercial facility; I only want to make sure my remodeling helps somewhat alleviate the annoying aspects of recording in that room.

Here's the scenario:

1) There is currently no real ceiling to speak of. Just the wood floor from the level above, and pipes/air vents/etc.

2) It is impossible to record anything with a microphone when someone is walking upstairs, running the sink, or flushing the toilet -- unless, of course, your intent is to record the sound of someone walking upstairs, running the sink, or flushing the toilet.

3) I have banished my loved ones from the house when I record during daylight hours. After spending a year and a half working very intensely on an album, it is understandable that they would like to inhabit their own house for at least the next year and a half. Me, I'd just like to get started on the next album.

4) I can record any instrument except drums when everyone is asleep.

5) I would like to record drums when everyone is asleep.

The main culprit for sound leakage is not the side walls of the room; it's the ceiling, as that's where the pipes are -- and the constant shuffle of feet. I understand the room-in-a-room concept, and did something similar in my previous house, but because there are active water pipes above this studio, it sure would be nice to have a way to get to those pipes when they inevitably leak.

So I'm considering putting up removable ceiling panels. With lots of fiberglass insulation. But I'm thinking it's not going to be enough. A friend suggested putting some mass up there, like moving blankets -- non-flammable ones, as there's also electricity running up there -- but I don't know. Somehow the idea doesn't strike me as a very safe one.

Any suggestions? Again, I'm not looking for the perfect commercial studio solution -- only something which could conceivably improve my tracking prospects during daylight hours.

Thanks!

[bpape]

You're in a catch 22. Removable tiles and insulation will help a little - but not enough to eliminate the things you're hearing (and recording) from upstairs. You need mass and it all needs to be sealed up air tight.

The room in a room is the best bet. Short of that, you can try RSIC-1 clips and double drywall with Green Glue. Yes - you'll have to cut into it when something leaks 5-10 years from now but until then, it lets you work and everyone live somewhat normally.

Wish there was a better answer.

Bryan

[jwl]

I was going to reply, but bpape said pretty much everything I would have said.

As an alternative to RSIC-1 clips, you can use resilient channel (NOT hat channel if you aren't using clips) but it won't perform quite as well.

But definitely, packing the joists with insulation and installing a ceiling should help a lot, though room-within-room construction is still overall the best performer.

[simplecarnival]

Thanks for the helpful info!

[DSD_Mastering]

Here's what I have in my ceiling. I caulked all the joists and put blocking in every 24 inches or so. These are Kinetics noise control hangers. I stuffed the cavities with R-22 rock wool and hung 2 layers of drywall with green glue on hatchannel.

Regards,
Bruce

[gainstages]

very nicely done!

[bpape]

If you're going to use RC, just be very very careful. They're extremely easy to mess up and short out the whole thing. They're also very unpredictable in terms of what and where they'll actually absorb inside the room.

Hat channel by itself is, as JWL said, not as good as it is with RSIC-1 clips - but it's still better than flat on the joists and not nearly as easy to mess up.

Bryan

[BudgetMC]

Just tell everybody that the joists are "Diffusors."

On a more serious note, have you thought about Mass Loaded Vinyl?

[bibleboy3]

Originally Posted by simplecarnival

I'm planning to finish my unfinished basement studio, and was looking for some suggestions on what to do regarding semi-soundproofing the ceiling. I am not looking to soundproof things to the same extent as a commercial facility; I only want to make sure my remodeling helps somewhat alleviate the annoying aspects of recording in that room.

Here's the scenario:

1) There is currently no real ceiling to speak of. Just the wood floor from the level above, and pipes/air vents/etc.

2) It is impossible to record anything with a microphone when someone is walking upstairs, running the sink, or flushing the toilet -- unless, of course, your intent is to record the sound of someone walking upstairs, running the sink, or flushing the toilet.

3) I have banished my loved ones from the house when I record during daylight hours. After spending a year and a half working very intensely on an album, it is understandable that they would like to inhabit their own house for at least the next year and a half. Me, I'd just like to get started on the next album.

4) I can record any instrument except drums when everyone is asleep.

5) I would like to record drums when everyone is asleep.

The main culprit for sound leakage is not the side walls of the room; it's the ceiling, as that's where the pipes are -- and the constant shuffle of feet. I understand the room-in-a-room concept, and did something similar in my previous house, but because there are active water pipes above this studio, it sure would be nice to have a way to get to those pipes when they inevitably leak.

So I'm considering putting up removable ceiling panels. With lots of fiberglass insulation. But I'm thinking it's not going to be enough. A friend suggested putting some mass up there, like moving blankets -- non-flammable ones, as there's also electricity running up there -- but I don't know. Somehow the idea doesn't strike me as a very safe one.

Any suggestions? Again, I'm not looking for the perfect commercial studio solution -- only something which could conceivably improve my tracking prospects during daylight hours.

Thanks!

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this is EXACTLY the problems I am facing!!!! when I read this post I had to look twice to see if I wrote it!!! LMAO!!!!!!

another problem for me is I can't get to the joist because sheet rock was put up and NO insulation of ANY kind!! with no insulation the sheet rock and upstairs floor acts like a big speaker.... you can hear EVERYTHING!!!!!! now lets toss another hurdle into the mix...... I am renting soooooo it needs to be portable.... I have heard a lot about the "foam by mail" stuff will this help to sound proof my room?? also for the record i know about isolation ( room in a room) but I do not own my house and I am poor.... so here is what I am searching for

#1. 100% sound proofing ( as close as possible) with out breaking the bank...

#2 it has to be portable I have to be able to disassemble and reassemble .

#3 it has to be CHEAP!! I do not have $75,000 to treat a room

#4 PLEASE read #3 again


thank you all in advance for all your help


Bill

[simplecarnival]

Originally Posted by bibleboy3

#2 it has to be portable I have to be able to disassemble and reassemble .

What about a portable drum booth? There's certainly a lot of portable vocal booths on the market, perhaps there's something similar for drums...?

I've got no experience with portable booths, but a Google search turned up a bunch of hits. Here's one:

PORTABLE SOUND isolation booth - DIY

(Don't ask me how you get out of this booth after you're inside it, though! Or where the lights are... )

[Ken Walker]

I forget who makes it, but I have seen a modular 7' high drum booth for around 2500-3000 dollars (US). The website had soundclips of drums inside and outside. It was somewhat impressive, I must say.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by kpaw

I forget who makes it, but I have seen a modular 7' high drum booth for around 2500-3000 dollars (US).

I think I've seen "Whisper Room" in that price range. A friend of mine had one up for sale. Don't know if he ever sold it or not.

Regards,
Bruce

[jwl]

Originally Posted by bibleboy3

I can't get to the joist because sheet rock was put up and NO insulation of ANY kind!! with no insulation the sheet rock and upstairs floor acts like a big speaker.... you can hear EVERYTHING!!!!!! now lets toss another hurdle into the mix...... I am renting soooooo it needs to be portable.... I have heard a lot about the "foam by mail" stuff will this help to sound proof my room?? also for the record i know about isolation ( room in a room) but I do not own my house and I am poor....

Hi Bill,

I think your best bet is to negotiate with your landlord. By FAR the best option will be to remove the drywall on the ceiling, install insulation, then replace the drywall preferably on a channel with clips. If you want it to be "portable" then I recommend using UltraTouch cotton batts, this way they will be fairly easy to remove. The hard part will be getting the drywall down and then back up. Perhaps the landlord would agree to having the ceiling re-done, if you cover the cost? It will, after all, benefit him as well in the long run.

Regardless, if you want isolation we're talking about some sort of construction, so you are pretty much going to have to get approval from your landlord.

I don't have any experience with those pre-fab isolation booths. I imagine they help some, but one factor for good isolation is mass. I can't imagine they have enough mass to truly block sound.

[fross]

Of course the real experts will chime in.

I'm about to encounter the same problem as yours, within the year, when we move into a house.

I've been reading extensively on the subject and this is what I've seen.

If you need isolation from the sounds above, decide whether you need the entire basement studio to be shielded or perhaps just a section of the basement.

1. If you only need a portion "soundproofed" go with a isolation booth (built or prefrab) You can use that for recording and drums.

2. If you need the entire space soundproofed you can do a room-within-a-room or if that's too much, you can add more isolation material to the basement ceiling, since the material seperating the basement from 1st floor is usually very minimal.

One book suggests multiple layers of drywall between the joists in the basement ceiling, followed by insulation, follewed by suspending a new acoustically isolated ceiling in the basement. (the new basement ceiling)

It looks like it'll require some elbow grease and time, but it appears that that would solve the problems from above. It would help with the drums, but without a total room-in-room or isolation booth there's no guarantee that you won't wake the others with your drumming.

Again, I'm no expert, but the problems you're encountering are exactly what I'm going to be dealing with as well.

MSD Mastering's construction looks very nice as well.

[RMJAZZ]

1. Good quality sound proofing is never cheap.

2. The best option for you IMHO is Quiet Rock drywall...installed over top of the existing drywall.

3. It is expensive, but not more expensive than the whisper room idea.

***I guess your decision maker, since you are renting, is if you can do an option that you can take with you.....ie..the whisper room thing.

I said #2 was the best idea because it allows for more space within your room(s) than a whisper room would.

Peace,
Rob

[simplecarnival]

I've posted a followup here:

Isolation booth for drums and vocals

[666666]

I'd say build a room within a room. It's the simplest solution (albeit a decent amount of work) and will yield perfect decoupling from the upstairs... period. This should give you the best performance. Anything actually hanging from the floor above will be flexing as people walk upstairs etc... your studio room ceiling should really be independantly suspended... as with a room within room set-up.

As for the pipes you speak of... why should they leak? What type of pipes are they? If they are newer copper water supply pipes or PVC waste pipes, all installed properly, they should never leak. If the pipes are old and have issues, then perhaps simply REPLACE the pipes so they will not leak. Then build your room within room under them.

If you have a pipe "trap" above where you want to build the room, frame around the trap and mark it somehow so that if and when you need to access it one day, you'll know exactly where to cut the sheetrock to get at it. You could add a trap door in your room ceiling, but that's probably more work than necessary.

I am in my house now for over 10 years, I have never had to open a trap yet once... and I've never had any pipes leak in the basement, ever. I wouldn't worry about it one bit unless your house is very old and you have very old piping in poor condition... and again, if that's the case, REPLACE the piping NOW, then build your room and you'll be totally set.

A self standing room sitting on a concrete basement floor, not touching any part of the house frame, is a beautiful thing.