SMALL CR, Need to redesign for bass problems. help!

[The Studio RI]

I'm wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction as far as room design. I have a very small CR with a lot of bass problems below 1k. I've installed a ton of treatments, tried different speaker placement, but that didnt eliminate any major problems, just moved the problems up and down the frequency chart. I'm using Mackie HR824's as my nearfields, but they tend to like to act as mid-fields more often than not. They seem to like some distance from the listening position. I'm getting ready to sell a ton of equipment to restructure my studio toward production and film scoring, so redesigning the entire room (even getting more "room forgiving" monitors) is an option.

any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Room stats:

13'x9' with 7' drop ceilings

wood floor.

you can see some pics at thestudiori.com or myspace.com/TheStudioRI

Thanks!
-Ben

[Glenn Kuras]

Hey Ben,

Pretty small room, but with some thought it can be done.
Where is the mix in the room? How, location and what kind of bass traps do you have in the room now?

Couple tips

1)Mix spot (where you sit) should be 38% of the room length. You should be facing the short wall.
2) Proper bass trapping made from rigid fiberglass or mineral wool covering as many corners as possible.

See the following diagram for ideas to make sure you are set up right and placement of treat is correct.



Glenn

[The Studio RI]

my setup is very similar to what you have there exept it is mainly foam based products from auralex and sonex. there is a large bass trap in front of the mix position made of non-rigid insulation covered with 2" sound foam. the speakers are in the corners because anywhere else sounds like crap! This poses an imaging problem, but it's better than not being able to hear the mix. the only major frequency problem I have there now (after much adjustment) is a major dip around 170hz.

thanks,
-Ben

[bpape]

I suspect that you're only getting decent sound from the corner placement is because the room is masking everything and causing a lot of cancellations. If you get some capable (not foam - sorry) bass absorbtion in the room, you'll likely be able to have the monitors where they should be.

How are your mixes translating to the outside?

Bryan

[jwl]

Could you give us more detail in terms of your bass trap design and placement? A room that size should be able to sound good with the right bass trap strategy.

[The Studio RI]

bryan and jwl,

I bought a new pair of nearfields yesterday, and I must say, 80% of the problem on TRANSLATION was the monitors. I replaced my Mackie HR824's with Event ASP8's. Huge difference to my ears. However, I can still hear the deficiencies in my room.

Here's the setup:

All 4 corners have Auralex Lnrd Bass traps from ceiling to almost the floor.

4x4' section of 2" sonex with two lnrd's put together in the middle of the 4x4 to the left and right of the mix position.

4 t-fusors above the mix position

drop ceiling with textured acoustical tile

2 auralex genesis bass trap systems in the back of the room, with styrofoam diffusors over the trap.

a custom DIY bass trap about 6'x4'x10" deep made from a wooden box with non-rigid insulation and 2" foam covering the front, up against the wall behind the monitors.

there are two doors, one on the back wall, and one on the right wall, covered in 2" sonex.

Wood floor

that's about it. the bass is much louder and more articulate in the back of the room, about 2-3' from the wall, but the new monitors are a little bit more forgiving of the room than the mackies.

thanks!
-Ben

[Ethan Winer]

I'd say your biggest need at this point is better bass traps - traps that provide substantial absorption below 200 Hz.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

that's about it. the bass is much louder and more articulate in the back of the room, about 2-3' from the wall, but the new monitors are a little bit more forgiving of the room than the mackies.

That is going to happpen in really any room, so you want to focus on the mix spot. You can put some 4" to 6" panels (made from mineral wool or rigid figerglass) on the back wall which will help this the deep nulls coming from there.
Make sure you space the panels off the wall the thickness of the panel.

Glenn

[The Studio RI]

thanks for the help everyone. those foam bass traps are doing nothing for me really. I'm going to take them down and start all over again. After all, I built this room about 8 years ago, when my knowledge of room design was still a little wet.

thanks!
-Ben

[Glenn Kuras]

Let us know if you have any questions along the way.

Glenn

[jwl]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this, but Glenn and Ethan have you well covered. They're quite right, you need better bass traps.

[gainstages]

thumbs up on getting better bass-trapping. overall, you probably need to reduce the amount of foam in your room and replacing that with broadband material like what ethan and glenn can provide you will be a big help.

also, i might suggest moving the tfusors back a little so that they aren't quite over the mix position but are just behind it. (or swap them for being L/R of the mix position with your sonex directly above you) i had a discussion with an auralex employee years ago about this very topic and they strongly agreed with me that thier diffusor was not appropriate when used directly above the mix position, but that it could have great results when placed a little behind the mix position. this should help open up the sweet spot a bit.

[The Studio RI]

I hope the pics show up. I don't have many pics yet, but this will give an idea as to the size and shape. the pic with the LCD monitors is more current. There is also a 6'x4'x10" DIY non-rigid,( but somewhat compacted) bass trap just behind the monitors. There is about 2 doors worth of space on the back wall that is covered with 2" solid foam, about 3" off the wall. I'm still getting a buildup of bass about 1-2 feet from the back wall. I need very effective, but compact treatment for bass in this room. What is out there at a low cost? I have about a $500 budget at this point.

thanks!
-Ben

[kedbear]

Try this for a simple and cheap way to make an effective bass trap.

YouTube - How to make a Bass Trap Acoustic Panel (Tutorial)

[The Studio RI]

That's a cool video. I could build that with no problem. I mean, if I can find them ready built for maybe 20-30 more than I could build them for, then I would just do that, but It seems that I could save a TON of money doing it myself, which is a great thing.

My lingering question, however, would be... let's say I cover ever square inch of the walls with these 4" 703 traps, 2" off the walls, would that be overkill? or is it "the more the merrier"? I want a room that's going to sound great, not be too dead.

I also found plans for tube style traps... are these any more or less effective than the 703 style?

thanks!
-Ben

[kedbear]

You can go to readyacoustics for their built versions, but they're $260 for three and you can definitely make them cheaper than that. I'm no expert, but If you cover your whole room it will of course sound pretty 'dead'. The question is balance. Sounds like you should get an audio test cd and an SPL meter to help you (maybe you've already done this?). The advice to build better bass traps is also good. Why not follow Glen Kuras' ideas for your room?

Here's another great video of a room well set up.

YouTube - How to Set Up and Treat a Listening Room

This guy posts here, and has already posted in your thread! (this place can be quite privaleged sometimes).

[The Studio RI]

oh I'm honored that these guys are posting! I've actually already seen that video from Ethan and I'm certainly considering the suggestions from Glenn. All the help has been excellent! I wish I could afford to buy all their great products as they are certainly superior to anything I could design, but I don't have the budget to do that right now. Also, I'm thinking of moving the studio in the next couple of years and that studio will be completely resdesigned. I'm going to strip all the current treatment off the walls soon and start from there. I'm thinking maybe about 8 of those traps will work and fit in the rooml.

-Ben

[jwl]

Nice cozy space you have there. :-)

Honestly, for that budget you are probably best off to DIY. I'd probably make some 6" thick panels, straddle them across the corners in front of where the LENRDs are, and install them on the rear wall, spaced out from the wall as much as you can (6" panels 6" off the wall is ideal). If you don't have enough budget for panels that thick, 4" panels spaced 4" off the wall will work almost as well.

This strategy will help reduce the bass response issues toward the back of the room.

Good luck!

[kedbear]

yeah it's worth remembering for your budget that having an air gap equal to the depth of your 703 effectively increases it's absorption in the bass frequencies in a similar way as filling the gap with more 703. So, a 4 inch piece with a 4 inch gap is similar to 8 inches of 703 flush against the wall, likewise 8 inches of 703 with 8 inch gap is similar to 16 inches against a wall. You save money by using air!

[The Studio RI]

I like cost effectiveness.. air is great! lol. I didn't know that actually! Should I keep the LENRDs in the corners too? also, I have some t-fusors above the mix position that I was considering replacing with hanging traps. is that a good idea? Any alternate place I should put the diffusors? do I really need diffusors?

-Ben

[The Studio RI]

oh also, If I had a 6" trap with 4" of space, is that like having a 10" trap or does the distace NEED to equal the trap size to work properly?