Do I need to put in a cloud?

[Thrashin Vamp]

I have a modest project/home studio and am trying to tweak out my mix position. The pics are 2 years old, but besides having a stuffed chair against the wall behind me not much has changed. I have some of the foam (I know people here hate it but I've never found out why...) left over and would like to try a cloud to see what it does. I've always wanted to put in diffusers on the ceiling and back wall but want to try the cloud first.

So my question is, how thick should it be and how far from the ceiling should it hang?

And, is it necessary??

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Thrashin Vamp

I have a modest project/home studio and am trying to tweak out my mix position. The pics are 2 years old, but besides having a stuffed chair against the wall behind me not much has changed. I have some of the foam (I know people here hate it but I've never found out why...) left over and would like to try a cloud to see what it does. I've always wanted to put in diffusers on the ceiling and back wall but want to try the cloud first.

So my question is, how thick should it be and how far from the ceiling should it hang?

And, is it necessary??

Yea a cloud will work fine for you. The best part is you have a drop ceiling so you can just put 2" panels right in those.

As far as diffusion, you really do not want to use it in the early reflection area (where the cloud would go and let and right walls), but putting in the back of the room would work great.

One thing I did see in your pictures is you seem to be way to close to that front wall. You want to sit around 38% of the room length.

Glenn

[norton]

clouds can be tricky..... but are really good at forcing the "feel" of a higher ceiling, acoustically speaking.

From my experience, shorter ceiling rooms can really benefit from the angled (low front sloping up towards the back) cloud.

Installing an angled cloud can actually make your room "feel" as if you've got some ceiling height. It forces the sense of sonic space by helping funnel some of the energy of your monitors up up and away... which might seem counter-intuitive... but it really helps open up the detail in your mix position.

If you just deaden up your ceiling above your mix position the only substantial benefit you get is getting rid of any flutter between celing/floor or a bit of the weird hash off your desk/console. That's good stuff to get rid of too... but adding the angle will really get you into some sonic goodness.

As far as the foam goes... The reason people hate it is because it costs about 5 times what it should AND it's only about 25% as effective as rigid insulation/rockwool etc.... Foam's real weakness is in controlling the problem frequencies that are sooo prevalent in smaller spaces (bass freq build-up etc..). Foam works well at keeping high frequencies in check... but at a very inflated cash price.

good luck with the room tweaking!

[Thrashin Vamp]

Thanks for the info guys! I'll try doing a slant and cloud asap.

Thanks for the reason on foam too, if I had found this place 2 years ago I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have it, but I do like the look

As far as 38% I do sit there now, have been for a few months. Done a bunch of tweaks since I started coming here and they've all made it easier to get a good mix on the first try. I want a great mix though...

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Thrashin Vamp

I have some of the foam (I know people here hate it but I've never found out why...)

Foam is okay, but it's expensive for what it does, and it's generally not as effective as better materials like rigid fiberglass. But foam installs without a lot of effort, and the typical foam you can buy at GC works okay for mid and high frequencies. But for bass trapping you could do a lot better than what I see in your photo.

how thick should it be and how far from the ceiling should it hang? And, is it necessary??

I agree with Glenn that your best option is to drop in better ceiling tiles using the grid you already have. Especially at the first reflection points. There's no benefit from angling a cloud. The ideal space depends on the thickness of the tile, and angling doesn't change that.

--Ethan

[norton]

Ethan

I've got to respectfully disagree with you on the installation of an angled cloud.

In a space with a shorter celing height.... forcing some acoustic space that is not parallel can provide a pretty sizable benefit. It certainly has sounded different, plotted out differently and has helped broaden the sweet spot when i've installed clouds in that manner.

Not that an angled cloud will solve every acoustic problem in a compromised space... i'm cetainly not claiming that... but speaker and video monitor placement have a huge impact on your mix position accuracy so can the ceiling and it's immediate shape.

[Ethan Winer]

Hi Norton (is that your first name?),

Originally Posted by norton

forcing some acoustic space that is not parallel can provide a pretty sizable benefit.

To my way of thinking, "not parallel" implies reflecting surfaces. For example, modestly angled rigid walls or a ceiling for the purpose of avoiding flutter echo, or severely angled to deflect early reflections away from the mix position. Unless I'm missing something, all that happens with an angled cloud is varying amounts of absorption versus frequency due to the different air gaps. So of course that would measure differently and perhaps sound different too.

Normally you'd want whatever air gap is optimum for a given absorber thickness, and you'd use that for the entire cloud. I could see using an angle if the front of the room is so low that the ideal gap would make it too low for physical comfort. But if you think I'm missing something, please let me know.

--Ethan

[djanogil]

I mean an acoustic cloud?

[straypacket]

Originally Posted by djanogil

I mean an acoustic cloud?

bump...

I want to know too.

[jwl]

How much space do you have above the ceiling grid? Looks like you could use some additional bass trapping in the room. One way to accomplish this is on the cheap would be to add thick insulation above the ceiling tiles. I like Ultratouch cotton for this (so it's easily and nontoxically removeable), but you can use R30 fluffy fiberglass too.

This would be in addition to the acoustic tiles in the drop ceiling grid.

And I'd still recommend bass traps in the corners.....

A ceiling like this could really help your room.... both in terms of improved imaging and flatter bass response.

[Thrashin Vamp]

I did the mirror test and took out two tiles above the mix position and put a 2x4 piece of foam in their place. The results are hard to pinpoint, it does something but it's subtle It definitely made my sweet spot bigger, and it seems to make the high end of the stereo field gel better (might be the same thing...)

I have R30 above the drop ceiling already, so now my cloud is 2 inch foam, small airgap, R30, airgap, floor above. I think my next step will be diffusion on the back wall. Thanks again for the help!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Thrashin Vamp

I did the mirror test and took out two tiles above the mix position and put a 2x4 piece of foam in their place. The results are hard to pinpoint, it does something but it's subtle It definitely made my sweet spot bigger, and it seems to make the high end of the stereo field gel better (might be the same thing...)

I have R30 above the drop ceiling already, so now my cloud is 2 inch foam, small airgap, R30, airgap, floor above. I think my next step will be diffusion on the back wall. Thanks again for the help!

Diffusion is cool, but you may want to think about one or 2 4" to 6" panel(s) in the center of the back wall with diffusion on the sides of it. There is low end that is coming off the back wall that diffusion just is not going to help. I am thinking your room is on the smaller size, right?

Glenn

[Thrashin Vamp]

I wouldn't say small, but I've only been in 2 or 3 real studios before. Here's a quick drawing of my setup. I have a 2 inch piece of foam behind me on the wall, as well as an overstuffed cloth-covered chair, but I assume that isn't enough to do much. I know I have a bad dip between 80 and 140 Hz, but after 4 years I've gotten used to mixing with it.

Would the 4-6 inches of absorption help that?

[Glenn Kuras]

Any way you can move the mix spot? I think that would help you out a ton.
Place yourself facing the 22 foot wall and sit about 13 feet from the wall. That will put you about 38% of the room length which will help a lot. Being shoved in that cover is HUGE part of the problems you are having. Check out (GIK Acoustics: Room Setup) to help you understand set up.
BTW with 35 feet diffusion will work darn well.

Glenn

[Thrashin Vamp]

Can't really move it, when I said modest studio I meant "corner of the basement I can have full control over" so I have what amounts to a ~15x11 foot room to work with. I'm basically trying to get the most out of that. I'm really not having too many problems, my mixes translate well and I've learned what the system/room combination sounds like. I just want to smooth it out more, but I'm begining to think my problem with depth of field and stereo image is more user error than room problem...