Tonewood use in studio construction

[gainstages]

any of you using tonewoods other than cedar in your studio? if so, curious as to what and how happy you were with the results

[Ethan Winer]

What do you mean by "tonewoods?" A recording room or control room should never have resonances in the sense that a violin or cello has. All woods sound more or less the same, and none are much different than a plain sheet rock wall. The main appeal of wood in a studio is looks, not sound. But if I'm missing your point, please clarify.

--Ethan

[gainstages]

exactly as different woods make acoustic instruments have differences in tonal qualities, i was wondering if the use of these woods in my studio construction would add any additional warmth, tightness, etc in a favorable way. (specifically for getting great room sounds when tracking)

[Audionaut]

If you're going to use fine "tonewoods" in your construction, then I'd be glad to sell you some of our left over "tonesulation" and "tonesheetrock"- it's very expensive, but for some people only the best will do.
Conversely, if you know anyone with an excess of marimbas, The wood can be harvested and assembled into a full spectrum, multiple octave tonewood slat resonators. Figure approximately 3 disassembled marimbas per square meter.

[gainstages]

nice....

[Audionaut]

Sorry, couldn't help it.

Seriously though, all hardwoods pretty similarly reflective. Aside from the wood thickness & actual room geometry, I think whatever OTHER materials you employ (fabrics, stone, glass) will bear the burden of providing "warmth."
I'm not sure that you could hear the difference between a maple, oak or MDF walled room (provided the panels share the same finish).
I'll bet you can hear the difference between raw, painted and polyurethane finishes though. Anyone experience a change after finishing their wood?

I've got a friend in NYC that used "mushroom board" or "barn board" to finish his studio. After staining & clear coat, the planks are very rigid, thick and have a very exaggerated and knotty grain - probably provide a bunch of natural diffusion.

big booth with mushroomboard diffuser.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by gainstages

exactly as different woods make acoustic instruments have differences in tonal qualities, i was wondering if the use of these woods in my studio construction would add any additional warmth, tightness, etc in a favorable way. (specifically for getting great room sounds when tracking)

No, because these are completely different principles. For a violin you want the wood to vibrate and resonate to favor some frequencies over others. The number of resonances, and their frequencies and Q (bandwidth) is what give each instrument its unique sound. But in a studio or control room the goal is always to avoid resonances and frequency-selective peaks. So wood in this case is applied to a rigid floor that hopefully doesn't flex at audible frequencies, or attached to a rigid wall. And then all that varies from one surface to another is how reflective it is at different frequencies. Most differences will be above a few KHz.

--Ethan

[godcity]

i was at sing sing in melbourne australia recently, and they have a room that uses a bunch of rough lumber with the bark still on it as a diffusers. it looked really cool, and it must have been somewhat effective.

[gainstages]

thanks for the feedback gents.

[Rick Sutton]

I use rough redwood. Doubt that redwood is much different in sound properties than other woods but I enjoy the rustic, warm vibe it gives the room.

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

But in a studio or control room the goal is always to avoid resonances and frequency-selective peaks.
--Ethan

i don't know. i would think that people would want, nice, colorful sounding rooms at least some of the time. hell, i would. i'd want a neutral control room of course, but at least one tracking room with a rich sound is what my goal is. or am i taking you out of context?
as far as tonewoods having different sounds, it sounds pretty reasonable to me, to say that different woods with different densities reflect sound in different ways. is this not true?
take abbey road, a place renowned for its great sounding rooms(i apologize for such a cliche example)... do the construction materials not play a role in the sound of those rooms?
reason i'm asking, is because, when i finally pull the trigger and convert my garage into a studio, i want the room to sound cool and unique.
-jose

[B.Santillan]

Originally Posted by malaclypse

i don't know. i would think that people would want, nice, colorful sounding rooms at least some of the time. hell, i would. i'd want a neutral control room of course, but at least one tracking room with a rich sound is what my goal is. or am i taking you out of context?
as far as tonewoods having different sounds, it sounds pretty reasonable to me, to say that different woods with different densities reflect sound in different ways. is this not true?
take abbey road, a place renowned for its great sounding rooms(i apologize for such a cliche example)... do the construction materials not play a role in the sound of those rooms?
reason i'm asking, is because, when i finally pull the trigger and convert my garage into a studio, i want the room to sound cool and unique.
-jose

I think Ethan is talking about avoiding the resonances and modes that help make up an instruments timbre in your room; whereas you're talking about a well designed room with absorption and reflection consisting of diffusion and maybe diffraction designed to avoid resonances and modes.

[rowdy finn]

the best drum room i have ever heard was just wood. i happen to think wood sounds great, it looks great, feels warm, and also has a natural diffusion if left knotty and unfinished. this may not be scientific, but making music shouldn't be. just my opinion.

[joeq]

I am picturing in my mind a room built like a giant guitar, made out of fine wood, suspended and free to vibrate.

Now I am imagining setting up a drum kit, electric bass and electric guitar in that room.

[jwl]

Acoustic instruments are made to resonate, mostly in the midrange which is where our ears are most sensitive. This is why different acoustic guitars or violins have such different tone. Materials, and construction technique.

The only place I can think of in a studio where resonance might be beneficial is if you have a well-designed slot resonator. But that's not really the same as resonance, it's more like a negative-resonance.

I can easily imagine different woods used in a slot resonator would have a different tone, but there are a couple problems with that idea that I see. I could be wrong, I'm just sort of thinking out loud here.

First, a slot resonator isn't creating tone, it's absorbing tone. So it doesn't have a tone of its own, it just has an affect on the tone of everything around it. Sort of a negative-tone. I still think it possible that different woods might have different effects on the tone around it, especially in the midrange. Think of the differences between, say, a cedar top and a spruce top acoustic guitar. The spruce top is generally brighter.

However, think about how thick a violin is. It's basically very thin wood. Not a lot of mass, so the resonances will be in that crucial midrange area, where our ears are most sensitive. Slats on a resonator are generally 3/4" thick or more. Much different mass, where tonal differences in the midrange are less likely to be so distinctive.

I think rough cut wood will have a different effect on the sound vs. sanded, finished wood. The highs will reflect less, or at the very least differently. I also think rough cut lumber might absorb a bit, too, depending on the density of the wood. I imagine softwoods might be great for slat resonators for this reason. Personally, I'm leaning toward rough-cut hemlock, once I get my build going, but I still have more research to do in this area.

Having said all this, I think differences between wood in rooms is probably going to be subtle. Wood is going to primarily reflect sound.

But I'd love to see an actual test of this: a room done up exactly the same way with different kinds of woods and acoustic testing each iteration....

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by B.Santillan

I think Ethan is talking about avoiding the resonances and modes that help make up an instruments timbre in your room; whereas you're talking about a well designed room with absorption and reflection consisting of diffusion and maybe diffraction designed to avoid resonances and modes.

dig it

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by B.Santillan

I think Ethan is talking about avoiding the resonances and modes that help make up an instruments timbre in your room

Exactly. If the room you record in has its own resonances, those will mask the desirable resonances of the instruments you record. I see the goal of a recording space as being mostly neutral. Of course a recording room can have reverb (large room) and/or ambience (small room), and that's useful. But the reverb and ambience should be neutral, and not favorable to some frequencies at the expense of others. Or at least not in narrow bands, which is what "resonance" implies to me.

--Ethan

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Exactly. If the room you record in has its own resonances, those will mask the desirable resonances of the instruments you record. I see the goal of a recording space as being mostly neutral. Of course a recording room can have reverb (large room) and/or ambience (small room), and that's useful. But the reverb and ambience should be neutral, and not favorable to some frequencies at the expense of others. Or at least not in narrow bands, which is what "resonance" implies to me.

--Ethan

i agree that you usually need a neutral sounding recording room, if only for the sake of having more control of the sound during mixdown.
but what about the room sounds that we hear in the cool-sounding old recordings, like chicago, and the beatles etc. those are not neutral sounding to me. how does one achieve a rich, euphonic room sound? -is what i'm asking.
-jose

[avare]

Originally Posted by malaclypse

how does one achieve a rich, euphonic room sound? -is what i'm asking.
-jose

By using standard acoustic principles that are well known. That includes knowing wood/plaster/gyproc can be all used effectively.

[lukejs]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Exactly. If the room you record in has its own resonances, those will mask the desirable resonances of the instruments you record. I see the goal of a recording space as being mostly neutral. Of course a recording room can have reverb (large room) and/or ambience (small room), and that's useful. But the reverb and ambience should be neutral, and not favorable to some frequencies at the expense of others. Or at least not in narrow bands, which is what "resonance" implies to me.

--Ethan

Could you design a live room, using a bunch of wooden structures that have resonant frequencies that corresponde various note pitches ? I'd bet that if enough thought were put into it, (and work...)you get get the resonances of these wooden structures to work with you , instead of against you, giving you a beautiful sounding live room..... I always thought that wood was used in live rooms for this purpose, since the shorter angled wood peices would resonate at different frequencies than the longer ones....

[avare]

Originally Posted by lukejs

Could you design a live room, using a bunch of wooden structures that have resonant frequencies that corresponde various note pitches ?

This is done in studios. They are called membrane absorbers and panel absorbers.

Andre

[lukejs]

Originally Posted by avare

This is done in studios. They are called membrane absorbers and panel absorbers.

Andre

What I'm asking about is resonators... I'm sure they will absorb certain frequencies in that the acoustical energy is disipated through the movement of the wood, but , also... the wooden structure can resonate like a guitar box.... imagine having about 50 guitars of various sizes, hangin from the ceiling !! If they all had different resonant frequencies, I bet that room would sound good !!

[andrebrito]

I don't agree that a recording room should be completely neutral. If that was the case we would record and mix in anechoic rooms.

Regarding tracking rooms I think they should definitely have its own colour. but it should be a nice enjoyable one. Different kinds of wood certainly give a different sound altough I'm not aware of any study in that field. Different kinds of wood have different absorption coefficients yetI feel that this is something that has not been studied in-depth since in my opinion you can have two materials with similar absorption coefficients but sounding differently since we distinguish timbre from the first reflections we listen from the material. So while wood is reflective so it is a metal plate and gypsum board and they sound quite differently in a room.

For example in my country there are several small theaters that use gypsum instead of wood, they sound much worst in my opinion. Both materials are reflective..

About control rooms I prefer to have a balanced sound yet retaining some pleasant listening conditions. I know some people prefer a more dry, almost anechoic environment which is obtained with absorption, I'm more in favour of creating a absorption/diffusion environment.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by joeq

I am picturing in my mind a room built like a giant guitar, made out of fine wood, suspended and free to vibrate.

Now I am imagining setting up a drum kit, electric bass and electric guitar in that room.

I have seen a room like this. It was built as a drum room, to reinforce if not extend the range of the drums. The floor was a resonator. It looked like a piano. But, it didn't work the way that you think it would. What you end up with is a room that is very noisy. Foot noise in this case.

Use some logic folks. Inside the instrument is not where the magic is. It is outside where it gels. So why try to record inside a gigantic resonator?

[avare]

Originally Posted by lukejs

What I'm asking about is resonators.

As am I

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by lukejs

If they all had different resonant frequencies, I bet that room would sound good !!

The problem is the sound of all those resonances would be imposed on everything you record. Often when mixing, one of the goals is to get rid of obnoxious resonances that make only some notes, or only some partials, stick out. For acoustic instruments - the sound sources - resonances can often be a Good Thing. This is what distinguishes a POS $100 violin from a Strad. But I don't agree that a room should have its own strong narrow-band resonances.

Tell you what - you pony up the cash to build it, and let's see how it turns out. Maybe it'll be fabulous.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

Regarding tracking rooms I think they should definitely have its own colour. but it should be a nice enjoyable one.

There you go! To me enjoyable means smooth lush reverb. One huge factor not mentioned yet is that the size of the room has a direct bearing on what sort of color you can get. I still can't see how strong narrow-band resonances would ever be desirable in either a live room or a control room. Except maybe as a special effect, like recording a drum set in a stairwell to get that Led Zep sound.

in my country there are several small theaters that use gypsum instead of wood, they sound much worst in my opinion. Both materials are reflective..

But did you ever compare the same room with both types of materials? Maybe the theaters sound bad because of other factors like shape?

Andre, this is really easy to test and one of us should do it and report the results here. I measured the reflections off a sheet rock wall in this article for EQ Magazine:

RealTraps - Recording Spaces

The problem was it was informal (not well controlled, nearby obstacles), and I used a crappy Radio Shack SPL meter because I was too lazy to set up phantom power for my good microphone. But it would be very easy for either of us to do this type of test more formally, with 4 by 4 foot pieces of different materials and a proper microphone.

--Ethan

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

About control rooms I prefer to have a balanced sound yet retaining some pleasant listening conditions. I know some people prefer a more dry, almost anechoic environment which is obtained with absorption, I'm more in favour of creating a absorption/diffusion environment.

Ditto

[andrebrito]

Doing such tests of having the same room with different yet reflective materials is a lot of money involved unless the room is small one.

I don't know why I don't like large spaces with gypsum but compared to wood they don't sound the same and I don't think it has to to with the shape of the room, but maybe it is just my ears lol Maybe the absorption differences between gypsum and wood (and there are different kind of wood!) can justify the sonical difference we feel, maybe we must used another type of measurements (damping of the material, first reflections etc..) to justify those differences.

This goes behind my knowledge !

[malaclypse]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

There you go! To me enjoyable means smooth lush reverb. One huge factor not mentioned yet is that the size of the room has a direct bearing on what sort of color you can get. I still can't see how strong narrow-band resonances would ever be desirable in either a live room or a control room. Except maybe as a special effect, like recording a drum set in a stairwell to get that Led Zep sound.



But did you ever compare the same room with both types of materials? Maybe the theaters sound bad because of other factors like shape?

Andre, this is really easy to test and one of us should do it and report the results here. I measured the reflections off a sheet rock wall in this article for EQ Magazine:

RealTraps - Recording Spaces

The problem was it was informal (not well controlled, nearby obstacles), and I used a crappy Radio Shack SPL meter because I was too lazy to set up phantom power for my good microphone. But it would be very easy for either of us to do this type of test more formally, with 4 by 4 foot pieces of different materials and a proper microphone.

--Ethan

Good thread guys!

so are you saying that wood creates strong, narrow band resonances?
some of my bandmates and i used to rent a large apartment(actually a living space above a buisiness) in our home town that had wooden walls, and carpet on the floor, around a 20X10 jam-room. maybe it was a fluke, but everything in there sounded friggin fantastic. the drums sounded like god-thunder! there were a few problems near the corners where you would get this accentuated high end ringing, but acoustic treatment or careful mic placement would've solved that. i wanted to kinda create a similar environment when i build my room, and i'm pretty sure it was the 70's style wood paneling combined with the size of the room that achieved this sound.
jose