Wood floor or carpet?

[jnorman]

hi guys - my studio space is about 17x23' with 8 ft ceiling. all sheetrock walls and ceiling, and a carpet floor, with plenty of diffusion due to book cases, furniture, etc. the space is currently quite dead, and i have to create some good digital reverb to make the space sound somewhat realistic. i do chamber music (no vocals, no pop, no drums), usually a solo instrument with piano or pedal harp accompaniment.

most instruments track very nicely in there - violin, cello, piano, harp all sound nice. however, i do a lot of flutes since my wife runs a flute studio, and records with a local group here. the dead space seems to truly not flatter a flute at all, and the same reverb settings that make a violin sound wonderful sound pretty unrealistic on the flute - perhaps because i am just not getting any realistic early reflections or harmonics from my room on that particlular instrment.

so, i am considering replacing my carpet floor with a wood floor. i am wondering, though, if i might not be creating more problems than i will solve by doing this. any thoughts or recommendations regarding this would be most appreciated. thanks.

[Flymax]

Wood floor is great. You can put down area rugs and have options..

[kats]

A reflective floor sounds sounds more natural if you have good ceiling absorbtion.

[Glenn Kuras]

Goto home depot and get some sheets of plywood and place it on the floor. If it sounds good that way then you can go through the whole replacing floor thing. You might just find that the plywood you layed down looks and works just fine.


Glenn

[bleeding ears]

Go for the wood floor. It gives you more high frequency early reflections and therefore a brighter sound. The carpet is currently absorbing everything above about 8k

Like FLYMAX said, you can always put down rugs, but as long as the room is reasonably well treated the wood floor can only be an improvement.

[Oddionut]

Originally Posted by myfipie

Goto home depot and get some sheets of plywood and place it on the floor. If it sounds good that way then you can go through the whole replacing floor thing. You might just find that the plywood you layed down looks and works just fine.


Glenn

This is exactly what I did and it was a big improvement. My room was very dead and recordings were dark. I get better high end now and it sounds much better. This way you can you can have it both live and dead just by taking the plywood out of the room. You may need to deaden your ceiling though.

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by myfipie

Goto home depot and get some sheets of plywood and place it on the floor. If it sounds good that way then you can go through the whole replacing floor thing. You might just find that the plywood you layed down looks and works just fine.


Glenn

+1 This is definitely a good way to see if a wood floor is right for your space. I just did this in one of my rooms that had carpet. Man, it made a huge difference. So now it looks like wood flooring is on my gear want list.

Brad

[Acoustic Cloud]

There is a huge difference in whether you are on a slab, or a suspended hardwood floor structure. Nobody is addressing this......c'mon guys!

Am I the only one here with a contractors license?!!

A suspended floor (Which means you can crawl under your house) is like having a stage-like chamber underneath you to some degree. If you are on a slab, the differences in having wood, or even concrete are minimal. On a suspended foundation, take the carpet out, and if you dont like the way it sounds, put some throw rugs back in.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by jnorman

any thoughts or recommendations regarding this would be most appreciated.

The quote below is from my Acoustics FAQ.

--Ethan

The following is from an exchange that took place in the rec.audio.pro newsgroup in May, 2003:

Bill Ruys asked: Why it is recommended to have bare (un-carpeted) floors in the studio? One web site I visited mentioned that a bare floor was a prerequisite for the room design with diffusors and absorbers on the ceiling, but didn't say why. I'm trying to understand the principal, rather than following blindly.

Paul Stamler: Carpet typically absorbs high frequencies and some midrange, but does nothing for bass and lower midrange. Using carpet as an acoustic treatment, in most rooms, results in a room that is dull and boomy. Most of the time you need a thicker absorber such as 4-inch or, better, 6-inch fiberglass, or acoustic tile, and you can't walk around on either of those. Hence the general recommendation that you avoid carpet on the floor and use broadband absorbers elsewhere.

Lee Liebner: the human ear is accustomed to determining spatial references from reflections off of side walls and floor, and a low ceiling would only confuse the brain with more early reflections it doesn't need. Everywhere you go, the floor is always the same distance away from you, so it's a reference that your brain can always relate to.

John Noll: Reasons for having wood floors: they look good, equipment can be rolled easily, spills can be cleaned up easily, provide a bright sound if needed, sound can be deadened with area rugs.

Ethan Winer: In a studio room, versus a control room, a reflective floor is a great way to get a nice sense of ambience when recording acoustic instruments. Notice I said reflective, not wood, since linoleum and other materials are less expensive than wood yet sound the same. When you record an acoustic guitar or clarinet or whatever, slight reflections off the floor give the illusion of "being right there in the room" on the recording. It's more difficult to use a ceiling for ambience - especially in a typical home studio with low ceilings - because the mikes are too close to the ceiling when miking from above. And that proximity creates comb filtering which can yield a hollow sound. So with a hard floor surface you can get ambience, and with full absorption on the ceiling you can put the mike above the instrument, very close to the ceiling, without getting comb filtering.

Dave Wallingford: I've always preferred wood floors for a few reasons: 1) It's easier to move stuff around, 2) You can always get area rugs if you need them, And the main reason: 3) Pianos sound like crap on carpet.

[jnorman]

thanks for the informative responses. i note that no one mentioned the room size, however. i have read that you generally need to have a room of something like 6000 cu ft before you start getting any kind of decent natural ambient reverb. my space is only about 3000 cu ft. will i still be able to effectively create some natural ambient reverb in that size space?

[centurymantra]

Originally Posted by Acoustic Cloud

There is a huge difference in whether you are on a slab, or a suspended hardwood floor structure. Nobody is addressing this......c'mon guys!

Am I the only one here with a contractors license?!!

A suspended floor (Which means you can crawl under your house) is like having a stage-like chamber underneath you to some degree. If you are on a slab, the differences in having wood, or even concrete are minimal. On a suspended foundation, take the carpet out, and if you dont like the way it sounds, put some throw rugs back in.

This is an interesting point to bring up. I haven't run into anyone discussing this before. My studio space is on a concrete slab with rubber pad and commercial carpet over it. I've been very seriously considering pulling the carpet and staining the concrete floor. Realizing this is a bit of a gamble has caused me to put off this decision. It would be a positive improvement on the house as well, which has been swaying me towards just going for it, but if the sonic improvement would be minimal...this has me wondering. Anyone care to elaborate on this?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by jnorman

my space is only about 3000 cu ft. will i still be able to effectively create some natural ambient reverb in that size space?

Good question jn. Total room volume is important, but the real issue is how close the instruments and microphones are to the surrounding boundaries. Obviously volume and distance are directly related! But what matters is that the "critical distance" be at least ten feet. Closer than that and the reflections are considered "early," so comb filtering dominates making it difficult to get a good room tone.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by centurymantra

Realizing this is a bit of a gamble has caused me to put off this decision.

Not a gamble - do a test first. Get some thin plywood (or even cardboard) and lay it around on the floor. If you like what you hear, then go ahead and change the floor permanently. Or just buy a bunch of plywood panels and keep them handy to lay over the carpet as needed. This lets you have one or the other whenever you want.

--Ethan

[NuSkoolTone]

I've pondered this basic question as well.

Let me throw this "myth" at you: I've read that concrete floors (Like a basement) suck the "life" out of drums and HAVE to get off the floor and be put on a riser. Any truth to this?

I'm looking at converting a garage half to a project studio, and space is precious. I was considering putting down a wood floating floor (About 1" off the concrete, or whatever is the least amount and feasable) to help improve the sound. Now I'm hearing that concrete and wood will do similar things in this thread. It makes me wonder... is it worth it? Should one just leave it concrete and drums can go right on there and still sound good?

After treating the small room, I was considering a mix of wood paneling to liven it up.

[soupking]

My upright piano is on carpet and it doesn't sound like crap. But I did build a platform for my drums. :)

Just a reminder that nothing is an absolute 100%.

...But I am curious.

[Brad McGowan]

The surfaces of concrete and wood reflect/absorb sound in a way that gives similar tones. However, as someone else in this thread has pointed out, if you have a concrete slab floor versus a supported wood floor (like in a house with a basement), that's a whole different story because one is a huge rigid mass and the other is a big vibrating membane in a sense. The way the drums couple to each of these and resonate is going to be vastly different. The drums and the supported wood floor resonate together as a system, whereas there there is more of a disparity between resonant frequencies of a drum shell and a concrete slab, so thus you won't get as much coupling. The effect is that on a big concrete slab drums will have much more sustain. This can be a good or bad thing.

I have a concrete slab floor in my studio. I use a drum riser that is about 4" tall and has a laminate wood finish on top. The way that the drums mechanically couple to the riser sounds very cool to me. The sustain of the toms is just right and the kick sounds huge. It's a trial and error thing. You have to experiment until you find something you like.

All I know is that recording drums on carpet sucks ass in a major way. Here's how I solve the problem of drums sliding around on the wood floor: I've put down patches of industrial strength velcro where the kick drum and hi-hat pedal go. Then I have wood blocks with the other part of the velcro on them. Once the drummer sets up I then stick the wood blocks in front of the kick and the hi-hat stand so that they don't move around. It works very well and maintains a nice hard reflective surface under 99% of the drums. Try it!

Brad

[stevep]

Originally Posted by NuSkoolTone

I've pondered this basic question as well.

Let me throw this "myth" at you: I've read that concrete floors (Like a basement) suck the "life" out of drums and HAVE to get off the floor and be put on a riser. Any truth to this?

.

I have a wood floor on a concrete slab and have never had to raise the drums, it sounds awesome ! on the hard floor

every room is different though

[mikymike]

Ethan Winer: In a studio room, versus a control room, a reflective floor is a great way to get a nice sense of ambiance when recording acoustic instruments. Notice I said reflective, not wood, since linoleum and other materials are less expensive than wood yet sound the same

Wood sounds better!!! I build studios for a living and will always put hardwood in the live/drum room and for chairs behind boards and prod. desks. DO NOT use linoleum!!! I even use wood reveals between absorptive panels on walls. Use wood it makes a HUMONGOUS difference w/ acoustic instruments!!!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by mikymike

Use wood it makes a HUMONGOUS difference w/ acoustic instruments!!!

Sorry, I can't agree. Assuming a solid underfloor that doesn't vibrate on its own, the only thing that affects the recorded sound is the reflectivity versus frequency of the surface. I won't argue that wood and linoleum are identical down to 1/10th of a dB, but they are close enough to not matter. However, if you have any evidence in the form of hard reflectivity data (not anecdotal), I'd love to see it.

--Ethan

[Glenn Kuras]

I won't argue that wood and linoleum are identical down to 1/10th of a dB

I have to laugh only because of all the years of crap you have taken you are now putting a disclaimer on your "what you will argue" too. You should have done that on the whole "eq will fix ringing" thing.

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by myfipie

I have to laugh only because of all the years of crap you have taken you are now putting a disclaimer on your "what you will argue" too. You should have done that on the whole "eq will fix ringing" thing.

Glenn

LOL, okay - I won't say that EQ cannot reduce ringing at all, but it can't reduce ringing enough to be useful.

How's that?



--Ethan

[moseskane.com]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

The surfaces of concrete and wood reflect/absorb sound in a way that gives similar tones. However, as someone else in this thread has pointed out, if you have a concrete slab floor versus a supported wood floor (like in a house with a basement), that's a whole different story because one is a huge rigid mass and the other is a big vibrating membane in a sense. The way the drums couple to each of these and resonate is going to be vastly different. The drums and the supported wood floor resonate together as a system, whereas there there is more of a disparity between resonant frequencies of a drum shell and a concrete slab, so thus you won't get as much coupling. The effect is that on a big concrete slab drums will have much more sustain. This can be a good or bad thing.

I have a concrete slab floor in my studio. I use a drum riser that is about 4" tall and has a laminate wood finish on top. The way that the drums mechanically couple to the riser sounds very cool to me. The sustain of the toms is just right and the kick sounds huge. It's a trial and error thing. You have to experiment until you find something you like.

All I know is that recording drums on carpet sucks ass in a major way. Here's how I solve the problem of drums sliding around on the wood floor: I've put down patches of industrial strength velcro where the kick drum and hi-hat pedal go. Then I have wood blocks with the other part of the velcro on them. Once the drummer sets up I then stick the wood blocks in front of the kick and the hi-hat stand so that they don't move around. It works very well and maintains a nice hard reflective surface under 99% of the drums. Try it!

Brad

That is cool i will try that ,i used nails ha ha it is only plywood
,i record my drums in my warehouse ,the floor is wood ,sheetrock to the sides, and insulation on the roof that is thick on the roof ,works for me .
Dont try vocals the dam helicoptors fly over my shop till 8 at night,so i record late nights.

[Sultan of Swing]

I just had to chime in as well. My studio performance space is about 11x18.5 with an 8 ft ceiling, in a basement on a concrete slab. The walls are sheetrock, but the wall facing the control room is layered with plywood in a curved shape for a bit of non-parallelism. For several years the floor was covered by a couple of rugs (no carpet pad) which we would sometimes pull back for more reflections. The setup worked OK, but over time I wanted a bit brighter space and so decided to go with a wood floor. I settled on a product which is kind of like Pergo but has a top layer of real hardwood which can be refinished if neccessary. I bought it in a combination of maple and cherry finished planks and my wife suggested putting it down in a random pattern. The flooring is easy to install and looks terrific. Everyone who walks into the room is knocked out by it. How does it sound? Bright, but natural. I record a lot of drums and acoustic instruments, as well as vocals and it all works pretty well. I do use a couple of throw rugs when needed. I am planning to add some Real Traps in the corners and would also like something I could put up to deaden things for spoken word projects. I of course am open to suggestions, but I say go with the wood floor!