Acoustics: Measurement vs. Trial & Error

[Mumblesound]

So, we need to look at our control room.
Part of me wants to measure the room's response (and do some math), but the other part of me wants to just start throwing shit around and come to a conclusion based upon the results (again and again...).

What have you guys had the best luck with?

[tomdarude]

This time you even MUST do it the gearslutz-way.....

use BOTH together !!





fool around, listen, make up an opinion about what you hear.....than measure, see if the numbers fit your opinion.....bring in the treatment...then listen & measure again!!

imho. the only way it can be done!
cheers tom

[Jules]

(tomdarude - I put you down on the poll with me for "Both".)

I think its worth discussing exactly how scientific people go with "measurement".

The guy "Fritz" (well known in London) that built traps for my control room (two floor to ceiling side traps and one very large overhead 'cockpit style' slanted trap), just did half an hours worth of "tone sweeping", listened to what went on and made a mental note of the situation. He measured with his ears (and eyes as he looked at the tone generator while sweeping to see the frequency it was set to at the moment it hit an extra loud or quiet frequency)

I am not sure if he applied any of this 'mentally collected maths' from his tone sweep session to the exact dimensions for the traps he constructed for me. Instead - it was all rather "Kung Foo" - a "he knows what he's doing" vibe but it worked out fine, one (multi platinum engineer visitor) to my control room described it as sounding "Like a mastering room" which I thought was kinda cool. Other visiting engineers / producers have enjoyed mixing in there.

[raal]

throwing shit around may take years of comparing what you hear in the room to what you hear when playing your stuff outside. you could get lucky, but a little measuring never hurt anyone. of course the measuring deal is also a matter of interpretation and expertise, so 'measuring + common sense' could be an option in your poll.

my experience is it's always trial and error... even when you measure. i don't think 'the perfect room' exists, but i could be wrong.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by tomdarude

This time you even MUST do it the gearslutz-way.....

use BOTH together !!





fool around, listen, make up an opinion about what you hear.....than measure, see if the numbers fit your opinion.....bring in the treatment...then listen & measure again!!

imho. the only way it can be done!
cheers tom

That is about as close to spot on as you can get!!! "Fooling around" as in proper speaker/mix placement.

Glenn

[Mumblesound]

Thanks, guys.

I was hoping that it would be more black and white, but that's what I figured.
Well, I guess I'll do some measurements with no treatment... instinctively put up stuff and/or move stuff around... measure again... so on and so forth.

Any recommendations for some simple measurement software... cheap measurement mic? The other thought was to hire a pro to come in and do the measurements... whatchooall think?

Thanks, again.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Mumblesound

Thanks, guys.



Any recommendations for some simple measurement software... cheap measurement mic? The other thought was to hire a pro to come in and do the measurements... whatchooall think?

Thanks, again.

Room EQ Wizard Home Page

Better then cheap, it is FREEEEEEE!

Glenn

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Jules

I think its worth discussing exactly how scientific people go with "measurement".

Start here, then follow up with questions:

RealTraps - Optimizing Acoustic Treatment using ETF

Originally Posted by Mumblesound

I was hoping that it would be more black and white, but that's what I figured.

It is indeed black and white. You always want the flattest response obtainable given the room size and shape and available acoustic treatment. You also want the least amount of modal ringing. You also want all peaks that remain to have as low a Q (broad bandwidth) as possible. You also want all early reflections suppressed as much as possible, with -15 dB being an acceptable maximum.

Now, I know there are some people who prefer to hear the sound of their room. Or would rather trade a larger peak at 100 Hz for less of a null at 80 Hz. And so forth. But if the question is how best to measure a room to assess what it needs for acoustic treatment, hard science beats subjective opinion every day of the week. Mostly because measuring is highly repeatable, where human hearing is frail. One day this sounds best and the next day something else sounds better. I'm not saying to never listen! But that's done after the fact as a verification step, once all the measurements have been done.

--Ethan

[Mumblesound]

I just stumbled upon my own thread.
I just thought I would let you guys know that we have been making forward progress in small steps.
Absorber panal here.. bass trap there...
The most drastic change was throwing our Event 20/20bas out the window and installing a pair of Quested S8 in their place.

That one change cleaned up a lot of mud and our mixes have been translating much better as a result.

Thanks for all of your input,
Seamus

[KFMG]

Trial and error with a bit of profession advice + hours of research to get headed in the right direction is the way to go.

Glenn and the people at GIK Acoustics are the best and there products are amazing.

Good Luck!

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by KFMG

Trial and error with a bit of profession advice + hours of research to get headed in the right direction is the way to go.

Glenn and the people at GIK Acoustics are the best and there products are amazing.

Good Luck!

Well yea the advice thing goes with saying. Thanks man for the kind words

Glenn

[avare]

I use all trial and error. Why follow what other people have studied and documented for over one hundred years? It only costs 1 to 25 thousand dollars for each trial. Don't you do that also?

BTW I have a small room. That is why the costs are so low.

Sarcastically:
Andre

[Chris Kress]

Originally Posted by avare

It only costs 1 to 25 thousand dollars for each trial. Don't you do that also?

You know this is a frustrating business of music in general. I understand how Andre feels. I work regularly in a -very- expensive studio, and also work in a home studio. I know that acoustics do make the difference because I hear difference all of the time. My work is different in each space. But budgets are falling. The fact that people are doing their own acoustics is a reality.

I started acoustics studies with a book called "how to build a small budget recording studio from scratch" by F. Alton Everest and Mike Shea. What I have found is that if I follow the guidlines in this book, and then do testing and other modifications by ear, that I have had a workable room. Would I prefer to pay 10k$ for the design and $35k to implement - per room? (yes). Will I? (when budgets allow).

Most of the rooms that have a real acoustic design are out of business. Just something to think about......

[avare]

Originally Posted by Chris Kress

I started acoustics studies with a book called "how to build a small budget recording studio from scratch" by F. Alton Everest and Mike Shea. What I have found is that if I follow the guidlines in this book, and then do testing and other modifications by ear, that I have had a workable room.

Everest was a genius at writing about acoustics so that regular people could understand it clearly. My first book on acoustics was bt him. My latest book on acoustics is by him also.

Most of the rooms that have a real acoustic design are out of business. Just something to think about......

I don't understand this. Obviously your rooms have acoustic design. Was it paid for? Probably not. Was there design for acoustics? Yes. If you are thinking about rooms built decades ago, then well yes, most are out of business. As are most businesses from decades ago. Or they have evolved into something else. As an example, Western Recorders does not exist any more. But Oceanway does, with the same rooms.

Merry Christmas


Andre

[Chris Kress]

Originally Posted by avare

Everest was a genius at writing about acoustics so that regular people could understand it clearly. My first book on acoustics was by him. My latest book on acoustics is by him also.

I'll check out the more current material as well..

Originally Posted by avare

If you are thinking about rooms built decades ago, then well yes, most are out of business.

I was eluding more to the problem of truly commercial studios justifying the cost of new room design and implementation. It is a tough time to try to do things right, and still have business cash-flow projections that make sense...

Otherwise, I just picked up an earthworks measurement mic. I also downloaded the measurement software from a previous post in this thread. I am looking forward to a proper analysis and hopefully -slight- tweaking..

I would also like to say that the major point missed by the topic of this thread is "Design". I think a proper acoustic design could be implemented in an existing room or the existing design could be considered.

Happy Holidays..

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Chris Kress

the problem of truly commercial studios justifying the cost of new room design and implementation.

That's why forums like this are flourishing, as people understand that acoustics is not a black art that needs a Ph.D. to understand. This is also a big plus for companies like mine and Glenn's. If someone has no money they'll do it themselves doing a lot of homework and using advice from forums like this. If they have some money they'll buy from a vendor that offers free personalize advice. Either approach is way cheaper than hiring a pro acoustician, where you'll still need to build or buy treatment. This is not to dismiss the value of pros! Especially when someone needs to deal with tougher issues like sound isolation and building permits etc.

--Ethan

[avare]

Originally Posted by Chris Kress

I was eluding more to the problem of truly commercial studios justifying the cost of new room design and implementation. It is a tough time to try to do things right, and still have business cash-flow projections that make sense...

Economics of business. Not the cost of doing it right. What modern studio would survive with poor acoustics?


Andre

[andrebrito]

That's why forums like this are flourishing, as people understand that acoustics is not a black art that needs a Ph.D. to understand.

Allow me to disagree with that a little. I have a MSc in Acoustics and there is a lot I still don't understand. Acoustics is a huge field, not only including small room acoustics. Go into large room acoustics and you will have a totally different way of thinking and acoustical background. Not to talk about environmental or industrial acoustics or bio acoustics etc etc etc...

Now the basics of acoustics are easy to understand even for a non-scientific person and there is a lot you can do with them in terms of practical application particularly in small room acoustics. But there is a lot we pros don't know and a lot to discover yet !

About products prediction while for some absorbers the theory and prediction behind it is quite simple and easy to implement for some diffusers and ressonators it is packed with complex models and computer prediction. I had a friend of mine who was doing his master in Bessel diffusers (from Vicoustic.com) and it was completely crazy !

About this post, if the space already exists I prefer trial and error or trial and error with a model prediction as well.

[DSD_Mastering]

Bob Hodas only charges about $3000 for a visit. That would go a long way instead of buying a bunch of bass traps/diffusors and putting them up in a haphazzard way!

Remember, time is money. Don't waste your time when you can get a head-start scientifically!


Regards,
Bruce

[andrebrito]

You know this is a frustrating business of music in general. I understand how Andre feels. I work regularly in a -very- expensive studio, and also work in a home studio. I know that acoustics do make the difference because I hear difference all of the time. My work is different in each space. But budgets are falling. The fact that people are doing their own acoustics is a reality.

And people doing their own acoustics is a two face coin. The positive thing in that know most people can discuss and actually do something about it. The negative side is a lot don't have the expertise and may do wrong choices in the design and then end up spending more money correcting them in the end.

I started acoustics studies with a book called "how to build a small budget recording studio from scratch" by F. Alton Everest and Mike Shea. What I have found is that if I follow the guidlines in this book, and then do testing and other modifications by ear, that I have had a workable room. Would I prefer to pay 10k$ for the design and $35k to implement - per room? (yes). Will I? (when budgets allow).

Those books are great to get some knowledge on acoustics but I don't think they replace the acoustical design made by a pro. Like you said those are guidelines and in a project they should be used as such and not as rules to follow. Each project should be as rigorous as possible, based on a scientific background. Yet in acoustics there are different options to follow (that's the artistic part of acoustics!).

I personally use different software tools to predict sound in a room combined with my own experience. And people like me and others non top-pro are probably charging less than 10k. So it really depends on your budget.

[Chris Kress]

Originally Posted by Mumblesound

So, we need to look at our control room.
Part of me wants to measure the room's response (and do some math), but the other part of me wants to just start throwing shit around and come to a conclusion based upon the results (again and again...).

I am in the same position. My room is workable now, but I would like to nail it (or carefully try to improve without hanging myself). After listening to these people, I am going to measure.. I already have the mic, and someone recommended software (linked above). I expect it will take months for me to verify my measurement process and then try to interpret my results.. But, I am academically curious about the process, have a general scientific background, and am interested in learning.. I would rather to do this than watch TV....

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

Allow me to disagree with that a little. I have a MSc in Acoustics and there is a lot I still don't understand. Acoustics is a huge field, not only including small room acoustics. Go into large room acoustics and you will have a totally different way of thinking and acoustical background. Not to talk about environmental or industrial acoustics or bio acoustics etc etc etc...

Now the basics of acoustics are easy to understand even for a non-scientific person and there is a lot you can do with them in terms of practical application particularly in small room acoustics. But there is a lot we pros don't know and a lot to discover yet !

About products prediction while for some absorbers the theory and prediction behind it is quite simple and easy to implement for some diffusers and ressonators it is packed with complex models and computer prediction. I had a friend of mine who was doing his master in Bessel diffusers (from Vicoustic.com) and it was completely crazy !

About this post, if the space already exists I prefer trial and error or trial and error with a model prediction as well.

I think you kind of missed his point and I hope this does not turn into a manufacturing company vs consulting thread.
The point of hiring someone to come out to your place is based on, IMO if someone needs design of new construction and to keep things up to code. Also the "pro" can work out things like isolation, wiring and so on. I think if someone already has a working room (I am speaking in more general terms) and does not have the need for new construction nor the HIGH budget, I think they can get just as good service (if not better sometimes) from the manufacture. Heck I have Bryan Papa on staff and he designs rooms for a living and when someone contacts us it is part of the service. Now if the client wants isolation, wiring and so on now that is when guys like YOU come in.

Glenn

[andrebrito]

My idea was not turning this into a manufacturing company vs consulting thread, my idea was contesting that acoustics is an "easy" subject to understand while sometimes it is quite complex indeed... but now that you talked about manufacturing company vs consulting thread I think we can discuss it haha !

So I will address the advantages for hiring an consultant and you can address the advantages of using a manufacturing company

- The cheapest and most effective solution I know is consultancy + DIY products. But I undertstand most people don't want to go to that route. Now this might change from country depending on the prices. I can say that where I live an acoustical treatment done using Auralex or similar kits usually costs around 1500-2500 €. A client paying for my services plus material costs usually is located around 1000-1500 €. I'm aware in the US things might be different since consultancy should have much higher prices.

- hiring a consultant lets the possibility for the client to use different kind of materials and brands since the consultant does not get any money from selling material to the client. Also if the client only needs 1 panel in the room to fix his problem (this is very rare!) the cosultant should not have any problem saying that to him. At least I won't !


- I also find that manufacturers usually use pre-established solutions (due to time and money reasons!) while consultancy has a more flexible and in-depth approach. If a manufacturer would spend the ammount of time a consultant does for each of their possible clients they would run out of business. This is of course part of the package and the way business is done. Each type has its pros and cons. Ironically a friend of mine says that acoustical kits is the McDonalds of acoustics (and he really sells pretty good products). In an ideal world each client would have an acoustical consultant and another persons selling reliable products.


Well these are my opinions, feel free to discuss them, that's what we are here for !

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

now that you talked about manufacturing company vs consulting thread I think we can discuss it haha !

I also find that manufacturers usually use pre-established solutions (due to time and money reasons!) while consultancy has a more flexible and in-depth approach.

I often talk people out of buying our various Room Kits, instead preferring to figure out exactly what they need and sell them just those pieces. As it turns out, a room kit is just about right for almost any standard rectangular room. Most of the people I deal with are limited by how much they're willing to spend. So a room kit is a good starting point because they can pick the price point, then we can fine tune the exact pieces.

In an ideal world each client would have an acoustical consultant and another persons selling reliable products.

I like to think I can do both equally well, but I understand I may be biased.

Before RealTraps offered a diffusor I'd send people to RPG if they wanted diffusion. I even became familiar with their line of diffusors and pricing just to be better able to give good advice. Of course now I recommend RealTraps diffusors. But it's not like ours are crappy and I recommend them anyway. Most companies sell decent stuff. Not all of course! I also like to think the advice I offer is a lot better than they'll get from any GC salesperson who tells them to buy foam!

--Ethan

[Anderson]

Originally Posted by andrebrito

My idea was not turning this into a manufacturing company vs consulting thread, my idea was contesting that acoustics is an "easy" subject to understand while sometimes it is quite complex indeed... but now that you talked about manufacturing company vs consulting thread I think we can discuss it haha !

So I will address the advantages for hiring an consultant and you can address the advantages of using a manufacturing company

- The cheapest and most effective solution I know is consultancy + DIY products. But I undertstand most people don't want to go to that route. Now this might change from country depending on the prices. I can say that where I live an acoustical treatment done using Auralex or similar kits usually costs around 1500-2500 €. A client paying for my services plus material costs usually is located around 1000-1500 €. I'm aware in the US things might be different since consultancy should have much higher prices.

- hiring a consultant lets the possibility for the client to use different kind of materials and brands since the consultant does not get any money from selling material to the client. Also if the client only needs 1 panel in the room to fix his problem (this is very rare!) the cosultant should not have any problem saying that to him. At least I won't !


- I also find that manufacturers usually use pre-established solutions (due to time and money reasons!) while consultancy has a more flexible and in-depth approach. If a manufacturer would spend the ammount of time a consultant does for each of their possible clients they would run out of business. This is of course part of the package and the way business is done. Each type has its pros and cons. Ironically a friend of mine says that acoustical kits is the McDonalds of acoustics (and he really sells pretty good products). In an ideal world each client would have an acoustical consultant and another persons selling reliable products.


Well these are my opinions, feel free to discuss them, that's what we are here for !

I agree with most of what you said in this thread Andrebrito.

I'd add that Manufacturers and Consultants/Designers in Acoustics don't evolve on the same market, mostly don't have the same type of clients, and don't usually have the same background.

It's two different approaches - that fit different needs and realities. I can't see a new professionnal studio facility being built without:

- an architect: supervision of broad building layout and some of the technical aspects, various safety regulations & permits, and also legal responsability over the project...

- a civil engineer: calculation of load bearing structures, flex of stabs, type of concrete to be used (ex: for collaborant steel frames) and much more...

- an acoustician: calculations & design of iso structures with civil engineer (floated systems etc), global and inner geometries, CAD of the room with estimations, design of all panels, cabling, Airco silencers, schedule of conditions, and much more...

In those spaces all systems are basically custom designed and custom built.

All those three work hand in hand and need each other. They also all have a legal responsibilty (10 years min) and most of all have an obligation of result - at least here. Here, those are also all protected professions and therefore not easely accessible professions.

On more reasonnable projects like project studios or home studios, I can see the need for both manufaturers and acousticians. It's for the client to decide which one he'll work with. What matters is that he or she is well informed of what to expect from both. Both can yield very good or not so good results....

As far as trial / error vs measurement... Trial and error is not my thing. It's all calculated and properly planned. I can't have the luxury of telling the client we need to change this or that... He'd sue me straight. It has to be good form day 1. A good way to compensate for deviations in the model is to stop all works @ 80% or so and make measurements and eventually modify a bit the next 20%.