Revamping my live room: live and roomy, or tight and dry

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by planet red

I worked in a studio once that had a bunch of gobos made with 4'x8' sheets of plywood on one side and 703 on the other. They were all in pairs connected with door hinges and placed up against the walls. For a live sound you could keep them plywood side out and kept them open at an angle to break up the parallel walls. The 703 on the other side took care of some of the mud in the room and the angled plywood made it super live.

I'm doing a terrible job describing it, but it was really effective and affordable.

That sounds cool. Any pictures of this studio floating around the web anywhere?

Brad

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

I haven't got an effing CLUE where you got THAT idea, Glenn . . . especially since Ethan's post was a direct reply to the following question from Brad:

Sounds like both were talking about bass traps to me.

My pleasure, Glenn.

Sometimes if someone hasn't had experience with the best, they don't have any way of knowing how good it really CAN be.

Anyhoo . . . just thought it were time for me to join y'all post wh*res. ;-) (j/k)

Now, now, boys. Let's play nice. And for what it's worth I actually do own a pair of Mondo Traps. I like them because they are thin and tall. But it's no secret that I own a lot more of the GIK traps. The GIK 244's seem to absorb less in the high end than the RealTraps and thus maintain the high frequency energy in the room better. At least that's what the numbers show.

Scott--I appreciate the detailed reply. Let me see if I can address some of your questions and comments.

I agree--I should try to make the room sound the best it can be and try to make it sound like something it's not. I merely posted the link to the Electrical Audio room to show that I prefer the sound of that kind of "live" over the highly absorbed kind of rooms that some guys (Glenn and Ethan) seem to like. I don't realistically expect my room to ever sound like Studio B at Electrical. The studio is wood and drywall construction. Here's some pics from a session done back in December where you can see how the room is currently set up. The red room is the live room:

11.03.06 - tracking the big one at LRWS - a photoset on Flickr

You'll notice I have a bunch of plywood panel traps (built from original RealTraps designs!) in the corners. I also have 6 GIK 244 traps straddling the corners as well as a number of other 4" thick rockwool absorbers I made spread about the room. The floor is painted concrete. The ceiling has crappy acoustic ceiling tile as I've already noted. Above the drums is a cloud with two RPG Skylines and two Auralex T-Fusors.

The green/blue room you see in the pics is in the process of being transformed into my new control room (the old one was way too small!). I'll probably post pictures of that in a new thread once I'm done. I'm almost done installing treatment in there. That room will end up being tight and dry and will serve a dual purpose as a control room and recording room where I want more control over sounds. Anyway...that's a different topic.

You know what's another room I think sounds cool? Presto! Recording Studios run by Mike Mogis. I love the live vibe captured on all the Cursive and Rilo Kiley and Bright Eyes records Mike did. Listen to clips from the Curvsive releases, Happy Hollow and the Ugly Organ to get an idea of what I'm talking about. Click on the link "downloads"

Cursive

Somehow I don't think that room had any Real Traps in it.

Brad

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

But it's no secret that I own a lot more of the GIK traps.

I rest my case, then. (just kidding)

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Now, now, boys. Let's play nice.

It's all in good fun, actually. I have a hard time resisting taking a poke once in a while . . . but Glenn's a good guy (and I know he can give as good as he gets), and we get along very well.

The GIK 244's seem to absorb less in the high end than the RealTraps and thus maintain the high frequency energy in the room better. At least that's what the numbers show.

To be perfectly honest, I can't really confirm or deny that in actual practice (and neither can Glenn, assuming he sticks to the high standard of ethics I typically associate with Glenn ). It's a little questionable to rely too much on "the numbers" when comparing data from tests taken in two different labs, as there can be quite a difference in the results at various frequencies even in two different ASTM certified acoustics labs. This is borne out by ASTM's own round-robin tests of a number of ASTM certified labs. Unfortunately, neither we nor Glenn have taken one another's products into the same lab to test them side by side, which is really the only reliable way to get a critically accurate comparison of absorption curves of different products. Not that the lab tests aren't of any value -- they certainly are, but one must take them in context.

But that is actually a little beside the point in this case -- not the primary issue, I don't think.

It's a little hard to tell exactly what's going on with the walls in your room, but it looks like, other than the diffusors, etc., the walls in that room are largely covered in some kind of fabric or something?

I also can't see much of what's going on in the corners from those pictures, or to get a good [i]overall sense of the room . . . but . . . hmmm . . . where to start . . . ?

It looks to me like you've got a LOT of high and mid frequency absorption material in that room, and you've tried to remedy the problems by sticking diffusors all over the place ON TOP of various absorption devices, and it all starts to get a bit overkill. Seems like maybe you are going to great lengths to try to address the symptoms when you should be addressing the root of the problem instead.

Oh . . . and by the way . . . I don't think the acoustic tile on the ceilings is causing the problems you think it is.

You'll notice I have a bunch of plywood panel traps (built from original RealTraps designs!) in the corners.

This may very well be one of the causes of your problem with the low/midrange honk. The plywood panel traps are really more of a tuned membrane trap, whereas the MondoTraps and the GIK traps are broadband traps.

You really would do much better if you pulled those plywood panel traps out of the corners and put those flat on the walls, and then fill the room corners with broadband bass trapping.

You need to understand that ALL room modes are present in the corners of the room. The corners are the best place to address ALL of the room modes instead of just addressing a narrow band of room modes in the corners, which is what your plywood panel traps are doing.

Putting plywood panel traps in the room corners is tantamount to simply angling off the corners for frequencies other than the narrow band of frequencies that the panel traps are capable of absorbing. Angling off the corners of a room doesn't eliminate the room modes, it just changes the geometry of the sound travel (and makes it more complex). This makes it very difficult to deal with the room modes in the lower frequency ranges (e.g., around 200 Hz and below). Unfortunately, when you angle off the corners, you end up having to put EVEN MORE bass traps in the room to deal with some of the most difficult frequencies to address.

When you put broadband bass traps in a corner, the absorption curve tends to peak around the 100 Hz range. But when you put these types of traps on a flat wall surface, they tend to peak around the 200 to 500 Hz range, and the absorption curve tends to roll off quite sharply below 200 Hz. So you will have to put that many more (and in some cases exponentially more) traps in to address any modal problems at frequencies below 200 Hz or so. I've run into that problem a number of times in rooms that had their corners angled off.

How thick are the plywood sheets on the front of those panel traps?

I can only guess, given the limited information I have at this point, but I really do suspect (from what you've described so far) that your panel traps may be acting as much to simply angle off the corners as they might be possibly helping to absorb. That could be one of (possibly a number of) the issues causing the honk you are speaking of.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

I haven't got an effing CLUE where you got THAT idea, Glenn . . . especially since Ethan's post was a direct reply to the following question from Brad:



(j/k)

Oh crap, I over looked that part of it. Sorry there big guy.

Still though, I agree with Ethan 99.99% of the time but, Brad wants a much more open sound in his room.
Not to say that 20 panels would not sound good either.


Glenn

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

I can't really confirm or deny that. It's a little questionable to rely too much on "the numbers" when comparing data from tests taken in two different labs, as there can be quite a difference in the results at various frequencies even in two different ASTM certified acoustics labs. This is borne out by ASTM's own round-robin tests of a number of ASTM certified labs. Unfortunately, neither we nor Glenn have taken one another's products into the same lab to test them side by side, which is really the only reliable way to get a critically accurate comparison of absorption curves of different products.

Well I have compared the two products side by side (MondoTraps and GIK 244) and speaking directly into both traps I do hear more high end coming back at me off the 244's. Each traps has its strengths and weaknesses and should be exploited properly when planning out a room.

Brad

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by myfipie

Sorry there big guy.

Hey!!!! Are you calling me fat?!?! ;-D

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

IIt's a little hard to tell exactly what's going on with the walls in your room, but it looks like, other than the diffusors, etc., the walls in that room are largely covered in some kind of fabric or something?

Not the whole room. Red is the color of the wall paint. Like I mentioned there are a number of broadband bass traps, which are indeed fabric covered.

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

It looks to me like you've got a LOT of high and mid frequency absorption material in that room, and you've tried to remedy the problems by sticking diffusors all over the place ON TOP of various absorption devices, and it all starts to get a bit overkill. Seems like maybe you are going to great lengths to try to address the symptoms when you should be addressing the root of the problem instead.

Oh . . . and by the way . . . I don't think the acoustic tile on the ceilings is causing the problems you think it is.

This may very well be one of the causes of your problem with the low/midrange honk. The plywood panel traps are really more of a tuned membrane trap, whereas the MondoTraps and the GIK traps are broadband traps.

You really would do much better if you pulled those plywood panel traps out of the corners and put those flat on the walls, and then fill the room corners with broadband bass trapping.

Well the room has been through many iterations. Nothing on the wall, lots of absorbers on the wall, lots of diffusors on the wall, some diffusors/some absorbers. What you see in those pics was my attempt at trying to dry up the room with absorbers, but not kill the high end. Hence my placement of the Metrofusors on the front of the broadband absorbers.

The plywood panel traps (wood color) are flat on the walls currently. Do you mean move them to the center of the walls instead? There are currently GIK 244's in all the corners (black color). So they are filled as you recommend.

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

How thick are the plywood sheets on the front of those panel traps?

I can only guess, given the limited information I have at this point, but I really do suspect (from what you've described so far) that your panel traps may be acting as much to simply angle off the corners as they might be possibly helping to absorb. That could be one of (possibly a number of) the issues causing the honk you are speaking of.

Some of them are 1/8" masonite. The other half are like 5/8". I can't remember off the top of my head. As I mentioned the panel traps do not angle off the corners of the room. They are flat against the wall.

Given my clarification, care to adjust your hypothesis?

thanks so much,
Brad

p.s. I would love to hear some sound clips of things recorded in a room that has 20-40 traps in it. If you have some please do post. What does 42 traps sound like????

[Brad McGowan]

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

Hey!!!! Are you calling me fat?!?! ;-D

How much bass trapping does your fat ass provide?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Brad

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Well I have compared the two products side by side (MondoTraps and GIK 244) and speaking directly into both traps I do hear more high end coming back at me off the 244's.

Well, there you go then. :-)

Each traps has its strengths and weaknesses and should be exploited properly when planning out a room.

I agree with that principle. And I SERIOUSLY didn't come here to compare our products with Glenn's -- that's not really what these forums are for. I was mainly just bustin' Glenn's chops in good fun.

But then when you said "That's what the numbers say", I was just making a point about relying too much on "the numbers" in isolation . . . you didn't say "That's what my ears are telling me"! ;-)

Anyhoo . . . I'm more interested in trying to get to the bottom of what the real problems are in your room, and discussing what my or may not realistic expectations as to what you might achieve with THAT ROOM.

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

How much bass trapping does your fat ass provide?

LOL. Touche!

[Brad McGowan]

Okay back to the topic!

Brad

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by Scott@RealTraps

Hey!!!! Are you calling me fat?!?! ;-D

[Scott@RealTraps]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Given my clarification, care to adjust your hypothesis?

thanks so much,

All sarcasm aside, though . . . ummm . . . yep! :D An adjustment of my hypothesis would indeed be most appropriate. I can only work with the limited amount of information I have. Sometimes it's hard to see (or notice) clearly from certain pictures what is actually there in the room and how it all fits together in context.

It's still a lot of guess work, though, at this point . . . not actually being in the room, etc.

I'd be interested to see a waterfall plot of your room. Maybe that would help. Do you have Room EQ Wizard? It's a free download, and works well (with a MUCH nicer interface and exponentially better documention than ETF!). It's also a very handy tool to have in the studio for other reasons as well.

Sometimes you can do a general broadband treatment of a room and get lots of improvement in many aspects, but then there will be a particular modal problem that was being masked by other issues before, and suddenly this one particular modal frequency (or band of frequencies) starts to stick out like a sort thumb. It isn't entirely unheard of to substantialy treat a room and find certain things actually sounding worse.

That can sometimes be a reason to look at putting in a tuned trap . . . or it could be just hitting that room mode hard by focusing on the areas that need to be treated for a given dimension that may be causing that particular problem.

[Brad McGowan]

I have access to ETF. I'll try to check out Room EQ Wizard.

Hopefully I'll get a chance over the next month to take some measurements. I'd be more than happy to post them.

thanks,
Brad

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

Okay back to the topic!

Sheesh, I go away for a few hours and look what happens!

Glad to see you boys worked it out.

--Ethan