Breaking

[Heyclown]

Listened on Koss Portapro but I will guess I stated the same if I used my Senn HD800; the sound production and mixing sound pro. Maybe a hint of too heavy bass/guitars to my taste but it didn´t drown the vocals so it´s obviously cleverly done. And I should maybe listen on better monitoring before being bastant. Will do that tomorrow.
Now, to the songwriting.

Starts off as a good song in my ears but the chorus is a downer for me. Swedish songwriter Joergen Elofsson once said "most songs die when they get to the chorus" and I feel that is what happened a little to me here. I have tried to analyze it quickly and come to the conclusion that - for me - it is to little that differates the verse/pre from the chorus. That is both melody/catchy-wise and level/intensity-wise.

It´s a good song but if the goal is to make a real classic hit record/song in the genre, I feel a lot has to be done to make the chorus stand out and to keep it calmer in the verses to make that difference shine.
It also need something hookier in the chorus in my book.

But obviously a good production and effort overall.

Go for it!

[jrod9900]

Thanks Clown. I appreciate the criticisms. I appreciate that greatly. It's always a bad feeling when someone says, "it's good."

Yeah, I agree with making the chorus pop more. I'm not sure what I could've done. I had tons of parts over the verses that I ended up cutting to try and make the chorus stand out more. I guess I thought I did a better job than I did.

It's also tough in this case since it was my own track. I hate doing that cause you get set in your ways and the way you hear it. I used to have a rule that I don't produce/mix my own stuff. Maybe I should adhere to that. Sucks though because to get substantially better results, it would cost a pretty penny versus doing it myself. LOL

The bass is a bit heavy in the track. The guitars really came out a lot during mastering which I'm not sure how I feel. I had a lot of headroom during the mix, and after mastering it was a brickwall. I told the engineer to make it ready for radio (dream big or go home right??? lol) and that he did. It's loud and in your face. I think I will talk to him about a happy medium next time. He does really good work, he just did what I told him... My fault I spose.

Cool, thanks for the kudos for the mix/production. Been trying to step up my game lately. It just gets harder and harder... lol

Cheers!

JROD

[Heyclown]

I frankly feel we are in the same boat here. My job right now is to TAKE AWAY from my productions. I have way to much elements in there. So my goal at the moment is:

Keep the verses very sparse. The elements that are in the verse should be clear and well thought of but it shouldn't be much. Think of the Bon Jovi productions. Listen to them. I don´t even do bass in verses but I guess that is a no-no in guitar-rock based stuff. You could do a lil subtractive EQ on the verse bass and play it a lil different. Which I am sure you do.

Make the choruses catchy and ALLWAYS make them so that the aware listener can hear what is being sung on the first run. That normally includes a lot of repeating phrases and OHH-AHHs in the chorus. Or some similar tricks to make it easy to remember/hear

Verses simple; makes it easier to make the choruses stand out. Also; make sure the top notes in the verse never gets to the heights of the chorus melody notes. As a golden rule I never make a melody line more than 18 semi notes in span (1 oct 6 semis). But I guess that is different when writing for yourselves. Then you can adapt it straight to your range.

Just wanted to share this as from just listening to one of your songs I sense we have some common tasks to look at when it comes to arrangement and production.

[jrod9900]

Absolutely, I concur. I'd be curious to hear a work or yours that is similar to see the differences and similarities.

I'm working on a new project for a band, and that's exactly what we're doing: subtraction, subtraction, and more subtraction. The problem is the vocalist's range is rather limited, so it's tough to make the chorus higher than the verse, the usual things, ya know...

But yes, it's nice to hear other engineer's takes on these situations. Mucho appreciondo... or something like that. lol

CHEERS!

JROD

[Papanate]

That's certainly pushing the low frequencies - I kind of like that. The opening was pretty powerful.

The song is mixed a little odd to my ears - and you seemed to lose focus as noted in the chorus and the last 50 seconds of the song. The vocals are down even in the chorus - and as such I don't know what the song is about.

There are also a few hard cliche's thrown in that dumb down the tune to me.

[jrod9900]

Yeah, this was actually my first mix with new speaker that handled the low-end much different than my old Mackies. Turned out kind of cool, just super aggressive.

What is odd about the mix? Not defensive, just curious as to what you are referring. I guess I don't quite hear the vocal issue as bad. I'm sure it's easier for me with intelligibility since I know the words. That probably doesn't help.

Dumbing down, I would guess bass drop and what else?

JROD

[Ghosted]

The chorus reminds me of something done back in 1988. But it's not as catchy as the stuff in 1988.

And for every "rule" the Clown gave you, I can give you an example of a hit rock song that didn't use that formula.

It's not bad, it's just not memorable.

[jrod9900]

What was it? In '88?

[jrod9900]

And I know this song isn't a hit. Hell, I didn't even expect to turn out as it did, but there are tons of hit songs on modern rock radio that to me are pretty lame. Just trying to compete with those guys. If I can be close to the lame hits on radio, I would be satisfied. And probably better off financially.

JROD

[Ghosted]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

What was it? In '88?

One of those hair bands, I can't quite put my finger on which one...

And I know this song isn't a hit. Hell, I didn't even expect to turn out as it did, but there are tons of hit songs on modern rock radio that to me are pretty lame. Just trying to compete with those guys. If I can be close to the lame hits on radio, I would be satisfied. And probably better off financially.

Aww, don't take that attitude, that's why most music on the radio sucks. What are your influences? What music makes you want to leap out of your chair and jump around the room every time you hear it?

[jrod9900]

Hair band. I thought when you said '88, surely it can't be a hair band. Wtf... Lol. Now I'm really itching to know.

Regarding stuff that moves me, its really hard to say. I really dug the last 10 Years record by Benson and 3 tracks mixed by CLA, the rest by Mike Plotnikoff. I would have done things a bit differently, but they are much more qualified than I.

To be honest, not a lot moves me these days. I like the last 3 Days Grace record, but the new single was very dull. Just wish new music would go a different way. I'm totally burnt out on sample replacement fake drums, excessive overcompression, and lifeless songs.

There was an independent band I heard on Octane I really dug, but it slips my mind now.

JROD

[Ghosted]

I tried to find some rock that still moves me...

And it was all older stuff, no new rock really gets me going right now.

It was Aerosmith, Nine inch Nails, STP, White Zombie, Nirvana, Marilyn Manson, Bush, Smashing Pumpkins... You know, the good stuff.

[jrod9900]

I would say STP Core is probably my favorite record of the last 20 years. If not of all time. Love it. All the way through. Real drums recorded greatly. Dead and Bloated is probably my favorite drum sound.

JROD

[Ghosted]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

I would say STP Core is probably my favorite record of the last 20 years. If not of all time. Love it. All the way through. Real drums recorded greatly. Dead and Bloated is probably my favorite drum sound.

JROD

"Dead and Bloated" used triggers, sounds like an Alesis DP-4 mixed with the Mic'd kit. Brendan was really good at this. Just mix the triggered sounds in and out to give maximum punch where needed using automation.

[jrod9900]

I still dig the sound. Sounds like a great kit.

I'm not against samples, I just hate the modern way of re-replacing everything and making the kit sound like sh*t. O'Brien did a great way of making a great recorded kit sound better.

JROD

[LTJazz]

The pre-chorus is excellent. Before you mess with rhythms in the chorus, I feel like it could use a stronger hook. My ears want to hear a strong hook in the chorus...a more memorable melody might work there or maybe an extra instrument to make it pop.

[Ghosted]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

I still dig the sound. Sounds like a great kit.

I'm not against samples, I just hate the modern way of re-replacing everything and making the kit sound like sh*t. O'Brien did a great way of making a great recorded kit sound better.

JROD

Because he blended it, and only used it for emphasis.
I'm way off on a drum replacement tangent... But you'll need to work harder on your chorus next time. What kicks your ass and breaks you? Write about that.

[jrod9900]

Thanks for the input Jazz. Now I just gotta figure out what the hook should have been...

JROD

[Jason West]

As far as song arrangement, this is what I hear and would change...

The current 8-bars "chorus" @ 0m37s is good but it's not catchy enough as a showcase centerpiece chorus... however... it sounds good enough as a "bridge" to use at 1m40s.

The current 8-bars (or 9-bars) "bridge" you have at 1m40s is not that musically interesting but you've got 8-bars of quality music (what you're currently using as a "chorus) that could fit really nice there.

My opinion on what to edit...

1) delete your current "bridge" @ 1m40s
2) use your "chorus" at 0m37s as the new "bridge"
3) compose a new "chorus" to replace the old "chorus"

To clarify about the moving the song sections around, I'm referring to the underlying music and not necessarily the lyrics. When I suggest re-purposing the "chorus" as a "bridge", I'm talking about the musical chords & melody. The lyrics of "breaking..." would still stay @ 0m37s over a new chorus chords if you feel that those particular words must be there at that point in the song.

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by LTJazz

The pre-chorus is excellent. Before you mess with rhythms in the chorus, I feel like it could use a stronger hook. My ears want to hear a strong hook in the chorus...a more memorable melody might work there or maybe an extra instrument to make it pop.

Thanks for the input Jazz.

JROD

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by Jason West

As far as song arrangement, this is what I hear and would change...

The current 8-bars "chorus" @ 0m37s is good but it's not catchy enough as a showcase centerpiece chorus... however... it sounds good enough as a "bridge" to use at 1m40s.

The current 8-bars (or 9-bars) "bridge" you have at 1m40s is not that musically interesting but you've got 8-bars of quality music (what you're currently using as a "chorus) that could fit really nice there.

My opinion on what to edit...

1) delete your current "bridge" @ 1m40s
2) use your "chorus" at 0m37s as the new "bridge"
3) compose a new "chorus" to replace the old "chorus"

To clarify about the moving the song sections around, I'm referring to the underlying music and not necessarily the lyrics. When I suggest re-purposing the "chorus" as a "bridge", I'm talking about the musical chords & melody. The lyrics of "breaking..." would still stay @ 0m37s over a new chorus chords if you feel that those particular words must be there at that point in the song.

Jason,

I appreciate your input. I feel like if the chorus music was moved to the bridge, it would be extremely difficult to come up with something even more aggressive than that part for the new chorus. I tried to chill out the bridge a little to make the chorus drive a little harder.

I guess the bottom line would be that there would need to be a new chorus. Hmm, well, I guess criticism is a good thing. I think...

Thanks,

JROD

[LTJazz]

Jason's opinion is pretty much in step with my own. I think the current chorus would actually fit very well as the bridge (nice catch Jason) and I do believe there needs to be an entirely new chorus.

That doesn't mean it needs to be more agressive, but there should be a hook of some sort (vocal melody, instrument, etc) that's very memorable, maybe even a slight change in the vocal rhythm (I noticed the vocal rhythm is fairly similar throughout the whole song. Add some texture!)

Why not try a couple of variations and post them on here?

Originally Posted by jrod9900

Jason,

I appreciate your input. I feel like if the chorus music was moved to the bridge, it would be extremely difficult to come up with something even more aggressive than that part for the new chorus. I tried to chill out the bridge a little to make the chorus drive a little harder.

I guess the bottom line would be that there would need to be a new chorus. Hmm, well, I guess criticism is a good thing. I think...

Thanks,

JROD

[wakestyle]

WOW!! DUDE, this track is hot! This should be on the rock radio station.

The mix IMO isn't perfect though.

Intro is great
Prechorus/verse needs a bit less guitars IMO, it could use a extra part (eg string or synth character part), to follow/act with the vocal
THEN bring the wall-o-guitar riffs back.

I think it could just use a bit more dynamic with the overal 'wall of guitars' sound, it's simply guitar on 10 the whole time, IMHO. Besides it could use a extra 30 seconds or so, perhaps with bit more of a 'breakdown' in the middle somewhere.

I think the best thing you could have done was have a less aggressive part somewhere in the middle section somewhere, like bring it down to just bass/drums and some picking guitar parts with a some vocal humming/emo a melody then build it back up again to the heavy riffing. Ya, I would just loop a section with good rhythm, lengthen it out then do some improve vocal melody (I'm not thinking lyrcis but it could be)...

gj

[jrod9900]

Thanks dude. I went a bit heavy on bass and guitars, and mastering certainly magnified that. Learned my lesson. Thanks for the input. Glad you liked it!

JROD

[Heyclown]

Originally Posted by jrod9900

Absolutely, I concur. I'd be curious to hear a work or yours that is similar to see the differences and similarities.

My early work is nothing of interest.
My late work all goes to publishing and hence cannot be posted anywhere on the net nor sent to anyone. We have a song coming out very soon on one of the 4 big major´s. Will post you a link when/if (it´s´the music business after all) the cut hits the iTunes/youtube but I seriously doubt they are using our production.
To this date none of my productions have been accepted as good enough for me to capture the production part of the job. I´m gonna make that change; I am new to the professional side of this.

Work hard and best of luck.

[jrod9900]

Yeah, keep me posted. Always good to make friends rather than enemies. We can band together and change the business if everyone else would.

Good luck to you as well.

Cheers!

JROD

[wakestyle]

JROD, I'm just curious if anyone has interest in a record deal? Most of your stuff is decent...

[jrod9900]

Originally Posted by wakestyle

JROD, I'm just curious if anyone has interest in a record deal? Most of your stuff is decent...

Thanks Wake. The other songs on there are not mine. I have done a lot of playing/engineering/arranging/mixing on some of those other tracks. I am kinda all over the place with what I do. If I was just an engineer I would probably starve.

Breaking is mine. I do have a bunch of other stuff I'm working on but is not finished yet. I have 3 other tracks I'm doing with a great singer/songwriter. I am just in the middle of 3 other paying projects as well, so my stuff gets pushed back.

I've never had a deal. Nowadays I am more songwriter/producer than player. I do all my own engineering and mixing as well. I would like to do more with trying to do some publishing and stuff like that. It would be great to write with bands then go record those tracks.

Thanks for the kind words.

JROD