hi. i have been taking piano lessons for two months because i love playing piano and writing/making music. recently upgraded from a cheap midi keyboard to a nice piano . i was wondering how much knowledge of music theory is required to write pop music? i dont think from what ive learnt it would require as much knowledge as composing classical music. is there a lot of theory to learn in order to right catchy/good pop? i always hear people say how often the same pop chord progressions are used.
the one thing i do know is that actual piano performance/playing technique isnt a big requirement in writing pop music. hence why i think it is more important i focus more on theory than playing technique.
You can become competent within 2-3 years. But there are a lot of little subtle things, little connections that your brain makes, that will still be happening 10-15 years after you've started. The best way to learn is to play other people's songs. You will start to catch on to the usual patterns. You will build up a vocabulary of what's done and not done. Of course the more time you spend fiddling with recording software, the less time you are spending on learning about songwriting. So that's another thing to consider. Identify your personal focus.
Take a look at the song portfolio of Ryan Tedder (One Republic).
Song he has written very often follow the same 4 chords through. All the way. To mention a few; Halo, Bleeding Love, Apologize.
It´s that simple in my mind.
It really does´t need to take you years and years. Go for it!
hi. i have been taking piano lessons for two months because i love playing piano and writing/making music. recently upgraded from a cheap midi keyboard to a nice piano . i was wondering how much knowledge of music theory is required to write pop music? i dont think from what ive learnt it would require as much knowledge as composing classical music. is there a lot of theory to learn in order to right catchy/good pop? i always hear people say how often the same pop chord progressions are used.
the one thing i do know is that actual piano performance/playing technique isnt a big requirement in writing pop music. hence why i think it is more important i focus more on theory than playing technique.
I wouldn't say you need theory per-say but it makes the whole process so much easier and quicker and usually produces a better result than just someone who happens to luck into something
A good place to start is understanding what basic chords belong in the key of your song. For instance, a song in the key of C will often have an F and a G chord.
Then understanding the concept of a relative minor. That the relative minor of C is A minor. Basically the C major scale (C D E F G A B C) and the A minor scale (A B C D E F G A) have the same notes and fit together musically.
That A minor key will also have a D minor and an E minor.
So if you put it all together, the basic chords in your song in C are
C F G Am Dm Em
This fits with Heyclown's Ryan Tedder/One Republic example above.
If you write a melody with notes in the C scale, any of those chords will produce different feelings when played with that melody, but they will all (pretty much) fit. Different combinations of those 6 basic chords against a simple melody go a long way towards writing songs. There's much more to learn obviously, but with just that knowledge you can write many songs.
As mentioned learning the songs of others will demonstrate basic music theory over and over.
I hope I don't come off as condescending, but music lessons often don't really cover much music theory. Good luck and have fun!
Theory is definitely handy to have kicking around, but learning theory often leads to theoryitis, whereupon the rules learned come to dictate your music rather than simply serving it.
hi. i have been taking piano lessons for two months because i love playing piano and writing/making music. recently upgraded from a cheap midi keyboard to a nice piano . i was wondering how much knowledge of music theory is required to write pop music? i dont think from what ive learnt it would require as much knowledge as composing classical music. is there a lot of theory to learn in order to right catchy/good pop? i always hear people say how often the same pop chord progressions are used.
the one thing i do know is that actual piano performance/playing technique isnt a big requirement in writing pop music. hence why i think it is more important i focus more on theory than playing technique.
You need to study to learn to do anything.
If you want to learn to write pop music, study every pop song you possibly can, from the Fifties on to now. Theory has little to do with learning to write pop songs. It can help you understand or analyze a song, but it can't TEACH you how to write one. Lennon/McCartney didn't know theory, but they knew the songs they'd grown up listening to through and through.
When you build up a large amount of songs that you've learned and studied, you'll start seeing patterns of chord progressions that happen over and over again. Sometimes you'll be surprised to find to totally different sounding songs are using the same chords!
After awhile it will help you appreciate songs that come on the radio that deviate from the hundreds of songs you already have learned....and while everyone else in the room is saying "What's the big deal about that song?" You'll know what the deal is....you'll know that the song in question is not doing what a typical pop progression would normally do at that point the song, etc. And that's what is making it stand out as a bit different, or at least part of the reason. That in itself is theory, it's you analyzing a piece of music and understanding what is going on it.
It's all out there. You just have to go learn as many as you can, and let the patterns start pointing themselves out to you.
He said playing technique wasn't important in writing pop music at the piano, and he's right. That's why it's common to hear exchanges like..."Oh you play piano?" followed by "Oh I play writer's piano" and then a chuckle.
You don't need to be a piano virtuoso but you do need to know how to use your instrument.
As someone with a heavy academic background I know that I'm supposed to agree with you, but seeing as a fair amount of my favorite songs in the universe were written by musically illiterate punk musicians, I simply don't.
Really, people need to start putting much more emphasis on taste.
Taste trumps all.
EDIT: Of course, it's nice to have chops and smarts in service of your taste, but not requisite whatsoever.
Theory has little to do with learning to write pop songs. It can help you understand or analyze a song, but it can't TEACH you how to write one. Lennon/McCartney didn't know theory, but they knew the songs they'd grown up listening to through and through.
TH
little bit confused by this.
you're just saying don't rely on theory to be able to write songs? i need to be able to see how they are written through understanding other songs?
It's important to understand that even though Lennon/McCartney didn't know roman numeral theory, they knew what a key was, what a scale was, what all of the chord shapes were, and were familiar with how others had done melodies and progressions in the past. So while they didn't know academic theory analysis, they knew music theory.
You can be a great author but not necessarily be able to explain what a dangling participle is. You don't know the terminology, but you've internalized the rules and vocabulary anyway.
you're just saying don't rely on theory to be able to write songs?
It's "confusing" because the usage of the phrase "music theory" includes a huge umbrella of concepts ranging from the basic identification of notes, C, C#, D, ..., B to advanced ideas of harmony, counterpoint, etc.
So the following 2 statements that look contradictory can both be true:
"You don't need theory to write music." "You do need theory to write music."
When people say "You don't need theory to write music.", they are stating "music theory" to refer to more advanced concepts. They are already assuming you have the very basics of the major scale and the 7 chords that fit that scale. This rudimentary "music theory" can be learned in 1 day. This very elementary vocabulary of "music theory" is adequate to write songs and thousands of musicians have done so. This knowledge is so basic that musicians can "know it" but at the same time say they "don't know any music theory." This could also be called "informal music theory."
When people say "You do need theory to write music.", they are sometimes referring to "music theory" as the most basic building blocks of identifying notes with names "C D E F G A B" and "do re me fa so la ti do". If you don't have even these basic concepts, you will pound out random dissonant noise on the piano or very bland music such as Chopsticks.
We'd have to understand what you currently know about "music theory" and what others giving advice define as "music theory" to clear up the vague meanings around that term.
Quote:
i need to be able to see how they are written through understanding other songs?
Yes. That's it.
You start with just the very basic "music theory" (see example above) and with that you can start to analyze Western pop music.
1 day to get "basic music theory"
100 to 1000 days listening, learning, note-taking on pop songs you like.
The analogy is "English Language Theory"
You learn to speak English around age 2. Sometimes gibberish, and sometimes coherent. You are speaking complete understandable sentences by age 4 or 5 ... as in "Mommy, I want that candy!!!"
At no time during that early progression of learning the language do you memorize "language theory" concepts such as "grammar parts-of-speech, nouns, verbs, subject, predicate, etc." You don't start learning those fancy grammar classifications until age 9 or 10 (4th or 5th grade school in United States.).
So the question is, exactly how did that 5-year old child learn to speak intelligible sentences without formal instruction in grammar theory? What's more amazing is that the child will sometimes string together combinations of words resulting in new sentences that have never been uttered before by anyone else. How is this possible? Easy! He imitates his parents, his friends, the cartoons on TV, etc. Imitates, internalizes, then transforms.
Music is also a form of "language" and you can do the same process. Imitate, internalize, then transform to something new and original.
If music theory (beyond the basics) interests you, you can learn more of it to supplement or possibly kick start songwriting. It's unpredictable whether you'd actively integrate music theory into writing music. It depends on your personality.
the big thing about theory its the musical glue between ideas. say if you got a nice breakdown section and you have a few ideas of a chorus and verse. but you dont know how to link them up melodically or rhythmically. you need a good understanding of music theory to link them together. for everything else use your ear.
__________________
Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.
It's true it can be confusing, so let me more clear.
Learning 500 pop songs written over a span of decades and gleaning a recognition of the common progressions and techniques IS a form of "music theory," and it is what will teach you the most about popular songwriting.
"Music Theory" as a commonly used term, however, is not quite that simple.
Someone who knows proper "music theory" is going to understand terms such as first and second inversion and why a chord is called an E#9, neither of which is necessary to write well. To write well, you might use a first inversion chord because it SOUNDS good to you (and has been heard by you in many previous songs) while not requiring that you know the proper name for it, or even why it is called what it is.
It's "confusing" because the usage of the phrase "music theory" includes a huge umbrella of concepts ranging from the basic identification of notes, C, C#, D, ..., B to advanced ideas of harmony, counterpoint, etc.
Thanks, you definitely cleared things up for me with your reply. I understand now.
"Music Theory" as a commonly used term, however, is not quite that simple.
Someone who knows proper "music theory" is going to understand terms such as first and second inversion and why a chord is called an E#9, neither of which is necessary to write well. To write well, you might use a first inversion chord because it SOUNDS good to you (and has been heard by you in many previous songs) while not requiring that you know the proper name for it, or even why it is called what it is.
TH
I see. May i add, that is basic music theory. Because after two months of piano, even i know that. I love learning music theory but and all the terms and definitions.
as guthrie govan told me always use your ear to spark your creativity and curiosity towards learning music theory. meaning to me that the sound is more important than the fact. always keep that in mind. if theoretically on paper it shouldnt work but if you like the sound then do it anyway.
I see. May i add, that is basic music theory. Because after two months of piano, even i know that. I love learning music theory but and all the terms and definitions.
Learn by doing.
Music theory will also teach you lots of rules that are completely at odds with popular music and how it is constructed. They will teach you that certain things are "wrong" (parallel 5ths, for instance) when in fact they are talking about the voice leading as practiced by Bach, as opposed to Led Zeppelin
As someone with a heavy academic background I know that I'm supposed to agree with you, but seeing as a fair amount of my favorite songs in the universe were written by musically illiterate punk musicians, I simply don't.
Really, people need to start putting much more emphasis on taste.
Taste trumps all.
EDIT: Of course, it's nice to have chops and smarts in service of your taste, but not requisite whatsoever.
Sure, lots of pop songs are written by punk musicians who only know 3 chords. They also didn't haven't a clue what those three chords were called let alone any in depth knowledge of music theory.
What's the point of learning a shed load of theory if you're just pecking away at a keyboard with two fingers?
I'd contend that for the vast majority of pop songwriters that the writers skills at playing an instrument exceeds their skills at music theory.
It's "confusing" because the usage of the phrase "music theory" includes a huge umbrella of concepts ranging from the basic identification of notes, C, C#, D, ..., B to advanced ideas of harmony, counterpoint, etc.
So the following 2 statements that look contradictory can both be true:
"You don't need theory to write music." "You do need theory to write music."
When people say "You don't need theory to write music.", they are stating "music theory" to refer to more advanced concepts. They are already assuming you have the very basics of the major scale and the 7 chords that fit that scale. This rudimentary "music theory" can be learned in 1 day. This very elementary vocabulary of "music theory" is adequate to write songs and thousands of musicians have done so. This knowledge is so basic that musicians can "know it" but at the same time say they "don't know any music theory." This could also be called "informal music theory."
When people say "You do need theory to write music.", they are sometimes referring to "music theory" as the most basic building blocks of identifying notes with names "C D E F G A B" and "do re me fa so la ti do". If you don't have even these basic concepts, you will pound out random dissonant noise on the piano or very bland music such as Chopsticks.
We'd have to understand what you currently know about "music theory" and what others giving advice define as "music theory" to clear up the vague meanings around that term.
Yes. That's it.
You start with just the very basic "music theory" (see example above) and with that you can start to analyze Western pop music.
1 day to get "basic music theory"
100 to 1000 days listening, learning, note-taking on pop songs you like.
The analogy is "English Language Theory"
You learn to speak English around age 2. Sometimes gibberish, and sometimes coherent. You are speaking complete understandable sentences by age 4 or 5 ... as in "Mommy, I want that candy!!!"
At no time during that early progression of learning the language do you memorize "language theory" concepts such as "grammar parts-of-speech, nouns, verbs, subject, predicate, etc." You don't start learning those fancy grammar classifications until age 9 or 10 (4th or 5th grade school in United States.).
So the question is, exactly how did that 5-year old child learn to speak intelligible sentences without formal instruction in grammar theory? What's more amazing is that the child will sometimes string together combinations of words resulting in new sentences that have never been uttered before by anyone else. How is this possible? Easy! He imitates his parents, his friends, the cartoons on TV, etc. Imitates, internalizes, then transforms.
Music is also a form of "language" and you can do the same process. Imitate, internalize, then transform to something new and original.
If music theory (beyond the basics) interests you, you can learn more of it to supplement or possibly kick start songwriting. It's unpredictable whether you'd actively integrate music theory into writing music. It depends on your personality.
Excellent post directly answering the OPs question. Good job!
When most people say it I think they mean dominants and sub-dominants and tonics and iv-min chords and ii-V-I's and cadences and voice leading and parallel vs diatonic and the sort of classic gobbledygook that you learn in, well, music theory classes.
Wikipedia defines music theory as "the study of how music works."
Lotta elbow room there.
I've realized lately (via my most recent drum teacher) that music theory incorporates every little vague thing in the universe, like texture and natural human variation (vis-a-vis tempo and dynamic regularity) and all of the weird little intangibles that generally aren't conjured by the phrase music theory.
i want to expand on this. so i have been learning lots of chords recently and how other songs are constructed eg chord progressions. But i have not been playing many pop songs or sight reading... is it helpful to learn how to read music? And to actually be able to play the songs i am analysing?
For some pop music today, there are zero chords, zero melody, and so on. There is stuff on the radio right now for which "Music Theory" is not really applicable (at least in a harmonic sense.) Just 4 notes (not even chords) over and over on some sort of synth through heavy effects. I'm assuming you mean something a bit more involved than that.
You can write a hit pop song in about a week if you're very focused on learning in that time. Of course, if you stop there, you'll basically be writing the SAME pop song over and over. The more you learn, the more you'll have the opportunity to differentiate your sound from others. Most rock bands and modern pop artists have a very limited theory knowledge. They also tend to mainly just sound like other artists, and all of their tunes tend to sound similar to each other.
As has been mentioned, for writing very basic pop songs with minimal harmonic structure, a general familiarity with the piano may prove to be the most useful part.
Depends on your goals, of course. People love to toss out just how ignorant many punk bands are... which is often true. I can't count the number of guitar solos I've heard where "their sound" was essentially the result of the guitar player not having a clue what key the song was in, and no idea what notes would fit that. If your entire image is discord, you can get away with some of that.
The flip-side, however, is that most producers who are successful for any length of time have an in-depth musical knowledge as well as familiarity with a number of instruments.
__________________ .
PRODUCTION GOAL: Blend ridiculously diverse musical influences into a viable pop signature sound that works for top 40 radio, clubs, earbuds, computer speakers, car stereos, submarine galleys, Australian walkabouts, Turkish prisons, skydiving simulators, volcanic craters, anechoic chambers, Martian discotheques, and all other known and unknown playback scenarios in perpetuity throughout the universe. - AINT NOBODY
... or sight reading... is it helpful to learn how to read music?
What is your primary goal?
If you want to join an orchestra...
or be a hired-gun for recording sessions where the producers expect you to read on the spot with minimal preparation...
...then yes, sight reading is important.
On the other hand, if your purpose is to write pop songs, sight reading will have a very low return-on-investment for the amount time you'd have to practice it.
Also be aware that a lot of written sheet music for pop songs is not accurate (haha). Unlike classical music where the composer notates the sheet music for copyists, the pop songwriter is very rarely the author of the transcriptions in fake books, piano books, etc.
I don't want to give the impression that sight reading is worthless. It does have its own rewards for learning it but it will have very little influence on your ability to write quality pop songs.
i want to expand on this. so i have been learning lots of chords recently and how other songs are constructed eg chord progressions. But i have not been playing many pop songs or sight reading... is it helpful to learn how to read music? And to actually be able to play the songs i am analysing?
If you're taking piano lessons, I'm surprised that your teacher isn't already teaching you to read music as part of that - at the very least at a basic level.
I'd say that being able to read music is almost certainly helpful. You don't need to be able to sight read (unless you're planning on becoming some kind of virtuoso on your chosen instrument) but being able to "follow the dots" a bit is a useful skill to have. Not only does it allow you to study transcriptions of songs and music that you know (and so get a better understanding of what is being played and how) but it will also be useful when the day comes that you're a songwriter and you need to get it all down on paper so that someone else can play your latest magnum opus (or help you to play it).
Similarly, being able to play songs, even if only a little or a bit roughly, is immensely helpful in analysing their structure and how they work. And the whole music reading thing feeds into that too. How far you want to take it in terms of formal music theory, reading ability, etc. is pretty much up to you. You don't need to go to great lengths and understand the more complex and abstruse bits of music theory to write most modern music. But knowing some of it, even if it's "only" the basic nuts and bolts stuff, and understanding a little about it will make you a better musician and a better songwriter in the end.
And if you've only been at it a few months, you need to remember that it will all take time and, if you're passionate about it and really want to go down this particular rabbit hole, you'll be learning for the rest of your life. There's always more to know and something new to find out - and there aren't really any shortcuts. But it's incredibly worthwhile and will enrich your life immeasurably - even if it just ends up being something that you do for the sheer joy of it rather than becoming your profession. For example, I was taught the basics of playing keyboards when I was around seven or eight years old. That process took a couple of years before my teacher was happy with my standard. At that point, he gave me a choice - either just keep playing for the fun of it or find a "proper" teacher and learn it all for real (i.e. go down the whole classical training/grades route). I chose the first option and, although there are times when I wish I'd gone down the classically trained path, there's hardly a day goes by when I'm not grateful for being able to play an instrument, understand how music works and hammer out the odd songs/tunes myself. I've not made much money from music 'cos I chose to do something else for a living, but the quality and richness of my life is much greater for having that bit of music (and music education) in there.
Oh, and Jason's summary of the whole music theory thing earlier in this thread was absolutely spot on. A great explanation. It also goes some way to explaining why the topic of "music theory" can sometimes lead to arguments on forums like this one - the phrase can mean different things to different people!
IMO you will write songs according to what you know,when i started i used to be like that ,playing and writing easy chords with no depths,once I had enough of it and still wanna go on I learned more,i learned gospel,softjazz piano style.Now i think my music is deeper,has more colors
__________________ myfacebook mymusic webpage
"Comes a time when we have to watch our friends do the dalliance treads on the primrose path."
IMO you will write songs according to what you know,when i started i used to be like that ,playing and writing easy chords with no depths,once I had enough of it and still wanna go on I learned more,i learned gospel,softjazz piano style.Now i think my music is deeper,has more colors
I tend to think the same thing about mine... but my girlfriend is pissed. She keeps telling me to stop writing all that "jazzy crap."
Key for pop music is not to lose sight of the overall aesthetic. Nile Rodgers was the master of that... keeping the groove front and center, and pushing the envelope of jazz phrasing in pop music, but doing so with minimal voicings, and other techniques to avoid hitting the listener over the head with it.
New Reply 
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
. i was wondering how much knowledge of music theory is required to write pop music? i dont think from what ive learnt it would require as much knowledge as composing classical music. is there a lot of theory to learn in order to right catchy/good pop? i always hear people say how often the same pop chord progressions are used. 
