Songwriting: when it all falls apart.

[rogerbrain]

Originally Posted by Sotsirc

Ok, I'm sitting down playing the piano; suddenly these harmonies and melody jumps out from the keys and I've finished a sketch in a few minutes. Problem is, parts of it sound kind of cheesy, not really something I would use in any project I'm currently working on. So I change a little chord extension here, a root note there to "hip it up" a little (no I'm not really that old). But now the song has kind of lost its directness, its appeal. I find it hard to just leave it alone and walk on, because it did have something magic when I first stumbled upon it.

This has happened so many times in the past, so maybe I should just start writing cheesy tunes. Or maybe I should finish the songs and perhaps become a better songwriter in the process (no one has to hear them). Or is it a waste of time altogether, should I keep working until a song that fits my style comes along?

This sound familiar?

an idea is the beginning of the path.. keep following it til it takes you somewhere you want to be

[Oldone]

Imagine if Van Gogh had decided his favorite pictures were going to be of wine bottles because that's what people seemed to like and buy. He would continue to have inspiration for the vast array of other subjects like fields, flowers, people, etc. But everytime those inspirations came along he said to himself, nah, it's not a wine bottle so I'm not going to paint it.

I would encourage you to finish the song regardless of whether it's in your favorite vein of music and regardless of it sounding stupid. It might be a path to another song someday from which you can borrow your experience. Also don't hip it up, let it go where it takes you and get out of the way.

[Irefay Agondray]

I think it is best to just go with it. Don't judge the ideas that come, just use them. "Cheesy" does not really mean much, often people call things cheesy that they are uncomfortable with. "Hip" is usually what we think others think is good. I say embrace whatever comes out. Fancy chords extensions (I happen to love them) and tricky melodies are not what makes music good.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Gearslutz App

[Zachariah]

Just go with it!

If you are writing a song to fit lyrics or writing with any direction at all, then I would say go back to what you had and try to stick to the topic, but if you are just slapping chords together, let it lead you wherever it is going.

You can always go back and start from what you had in the beginning anyway.

[Dave.R]

if you wrote something then it's your style. who else's is it going to be?!

[Sotsirc]

Originally Posted by Dave.R

if you wrote something then it's your style. who else's is it going to be?!

Have you never tried on a piece of clothing in a store and thought to yourself "hey, if I wanted to look like Tom Cruise this might have been the way to go; but sadly I don't"?

[Dave.R]

Originally Posted by Sotsirc

Have you never tried on a piece of clothing in a store and thought to yourself "hey, if I wanted to look like Tom Cruise this might have been the way to go; but sadly I don't"?

do you make your own clothes?

[Sotsirc]

Originally Posted by Dave.R

do you make your own clothes?

No but I don't make my own chords or scales either, I just mix and match.

[Lenzo]

Songwriting is just like playing a instrument. It takes practice and patience. The more you do it, the better you get at it. By asking the very question you ask shows that you haven't written to the point where can solve your own problem. Keep writing and you will at some point never ask these questions again. You will know what you want and you will know that you will be able to get there. It can take determined effort sometimes. It's a puzzle that only you can solve. Inspiration is a great thing in the beginning. To make it a great song sometimes is where the work and experience come in. It sounds to me like you don't finish a lot of songs. If something sounds cheesy to you, then change it...and keep changing it until you like it. In fact, keep changing it until you love it.
L.

[Dave.R]

Originally Posted by Sotsirc

No but I don't make my own chords or scales either

...suddenly these harmonies and melody jumps out from the keys and I've finished a sketch

looks like you do

[rickd1]

I would say once you have that initial idea, your next goal is to 'finish' the track. Yeah, sounds simple - but your problem might be that you are trying out different ideas and the idea gets lost. Save 'idea-trying' for another session. Getting into the habit of finishing songs and moving on to the next one is probably the best song-writing habit you can acquire. If you get into that habit, then there will never be any such thing as writers block.

Sometimes, we would finish songs by taking out all the ideas that weren't working and then arrange it out and record it down - often it would have way too little in it, but at least psychologically, you know you have finished and can move on. Taking the lessons of how the song could have been better into your next song is way better than wasting hours noodling on an idea and then end up in a bad mood cos it didn't work out. I know that feeling and it sucks. Hope this helps.

Rick
31 Entertainment's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[Lamster]

Years ago I had to abandon many a tune because I could not make it work.
I found revisiting later on I was able to do more with them.
This was due to changes in musical taste/ influence and maybe a greater level of musicianship?
Others have said it is a journey and it is.
Your asking for help and hopfully thats what your getting not that it sounds as though you need that much.
There may also be help your not asking for from other writters that have made their songs work listen to them the answer may be there?

[pinkheadedbug]

Always record you first, simple idea as soon as you get it.

Then start f*cking with it, and record each new version.

Then when you feel like you've lost your way, go back to the first version and figure out what you lost.

[Tashez]

Was Listening to a podcast with some one who worked with Burt Bacharach. Burt told him that he never spent more than 2 minutes at a time when writing other wise you put too much of " You " in it . You begin to change it to your formula . If you keep the time on it short it stays fresh as when it was contrived . So true .

[johnny nowhere]

Good advice.

When you began, was it a 'stream of consciousness' type progression? The reason I ask is because I feel that it's important to allow the song to 'write itself'. Usually, I hear it and go where it tells me to go. If I start to think it screws everything up.

The main thing is not to limit yourself. I write all sorts of crazy shit because I have to get it out of me in order for the next tune to present itself. In the past, I'd blown a lot of tunes off because I didn't think that they sounded like 'me'. Then it finally dawned on me, "What am I thinking?? Anything that I do is going to sound like me." You are on an ever changing path. Write anything and everything that comes to you.

[Rockinrob]

I think your last thought is spot on, finish the song and then move on. Let the song take you wherever it wants to go. Don't fight the flow because what happened to you will happen again. Try not to over think your process because that will kill any creative flow that you have. The best songs just happen out of thin air. It's like the song writes itself. Go with it!!!

[Dave.R]

nothing writes itself. songs don't have a path of their own as if they were pre-written in some magical place

it may feel that way at the best of times cuz we don't completely understand the creative process, but songs come out as they do based entirely on our musical "history." if you don't listen to and aren't familiar with modal music you are not suddenly out of nowhere going to write a modal song

whatever it is that "leads" us in a certain direction creatively does so from the inside out and not the other way around

it begins and ends within us. how could it be otherwise and not be mere mythical thinking?

please don't confuse any of this with inspiration

[foldback]

Sometimes writing a song is like a stroll down a beautiful path in the woods, it may not necessarily lead somewhere but it's a thought provoking place to spend some time. I think it's a real step forward in song writing maturity when you can realize that not every piece you create is brilliant and needs to be finished or fleshed out to a complete conclusion. I have learned this from writing hundreds of pieces over the last 50 years and this is not a lesson I came to grips with easily because I am so easily seduced by my own muse.

I have also come to realize that for me sometimes trying to force a song causes me to use components from my songwriting toolkit in unfortunate ways. For example, I may have a great little riff that I try to force into a song, which later, I may ultimately decide is not a great composition. At this point I usually feel like the riff is tainted because it's associated with that less than stellar work so the riff gets lost along with the weak song it was used in. I have observed this behavior in myself many times and really can only think of one clever riff that got recovered 20+ years later and incorporated into a new song.

Keeping your creations organized so you can access them easily is a critical procedure that so many song writers fail to follow through with (me included although I've gotten better). I tend to save "everything" and that makes it more difficult to find the outstanding pieces. Developing a binary system of "ACTIVE" and "archive" is how I deal with it now. The tunes I can't finish go into the archive and every now and then I go mill around in there for ideas if I'm feeling empty.

If you are gifted with the ability to create try to remember not to become frustrated with it, realize that you have a rare talent among humans so nurse it with knowledge. Try to step back from ideas that are not logically flowing together and give them a little time. More often than not I've come back to a song idea that I thought was great a week ago but now listening with fresh ears I'm wondering what I saw or heard back then. On the other hand, sometimes you stumble across something you created six months ago and have a "OMG" moment that brings that song roaring back to life and possibly with the new inspiration and parts you really needed to make it a great work.

I started writing this to be of assistance to the OP but I realize it's also a succinct procedural reminder to myself.

Wishing you the best and good music to all!

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by Lenzo

.and keep changing it until you like it. In fact, keep changing it until you love it.
L.

This is a very good point here. In my experience, the best songs I've written where penned in 10 or 15 minutes. Then I'd spend days or weeks rolling ideas around about how to turn a phrase here or there until finally, I smile.

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by Dave.R

nothing writes itself. songs don't have a path of their own as if they were pre-written in some magical place

This so wrong I don't know where to begin. I've written songs that were precisely like they came from a "magical" place. It's the most bizarre and amazing experience. I can't explain but I know I'm not alone so the ones who have experienced this will know what I'm saying. It's not always like that but there are those special times when I just set back after finishing a song and think "wow". It's the best therapy in the world.

[Dave.R]

the experience is one thing, how you interpret or understand that experience is another. and it either happens all the time or not at all. otherwise there's a contradiction

mythical thinking is appealing where there's little understanding

[NoVi]

Sometimes it takes me months or years to finish a song (and very often ideas never see the day of light). But I am a rather organized person so I can easily go back in time and revisit older ideas and demos. The longest time I took me to finish a song was 21 years (started 1989, finished 2010). So don't be afraid to put things away and revisit them later. My experience is that things fall often in place instead of rushing things.

I'm also not convinced by the opinion that writing and finishing lots of songs makes you a better composer. I'm more convinced that it's better to take time and perfect a few good ideas than finishing lots of mediocre ideas.

[NoVi]

Originally Posted by cowboycoalminer

This is a very good point here. In my experience, the best songs I've written where penned in 10 or 15 minutes. Then I'd spend days or weeks rolling ideas around about how to turn a phrase here or there until finally, I smile.

Yes, exactly. Somehow you have a knowledge inside that tells you when something is perfect and you can finish working on it.

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by Dave.R

mythical thinking is appealing where there's little understanding

You couldn't have proven my point better than with this statement. Truly, to understand, one must experience it for their self.

[Dave.R]

you are making one very BIG assumption about my experience(s) as a composer

[Dave.R]

Originally Posted by NoVi

Sometimes it takes me months or years to finish a song ...

there is a recording floating around (youtube IIRC) of Lennon working on Strawberry Fields over a period of time. you hear him going thru all these permutations until he gets to what we now know

it's interesting cuz we all know that process...it can't be forced and it won't necessarily happen in 15 min, but little by little it comes together over a period of time

great songs written in one sitting are the exception rather than the rule

a song written while sleeping is extremely rare...a la "yesterday" (i think it is)

[cowboycoalminer]

Originally Posted by Dave.R

you are making one very BIG assumption about my experience(s) as a composer

No, sir. In no way am I making assumptions. But let's back up to your initial post. You approached the subject in a way that says basically "this how it is". Well, maybe so for you, but I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty that for me, I have experienced what I can't explain concerning writing. Is that "mystical"? I don't know. What I do now is there have been times while writing when I tap in to something. Something similar to highway hypnosis. Suddenly you wake up and your there kind of thing. It's not in the least bit mechanical. Again, this doesn't always happen, but when it does it makes me wish I could stay in that place of inspiration forever. All my songs are not great. Some are even bad, but there are few I've written that are great. And those I feel more like i was merely a medium with a pen. Silly? Probably. True? Absolutely.

Peace

[Dave.R]

when you said "Truly, to understand, one must experience it for their self," you were assuming i have never been "in the zone" while composing and thus not able to understand the experience. (that feeling of timelessness is familiar to non-musicians too, like athletes)

i am not denying the reality of that experience. again, what i am saying is that seeing or understanding that experience--being in the zone--as "a song writing itself" is a false conclusion

[creegstor]

Originally Posted by Dave.R

again, what i am saying is that seeing or understanding that experience--being in the zone--as "a song writing itself" is a false conclusion

How do you know? Where you there?

It's funny you accuse Cowboy thus: "you are making one very BIG assumption about my experience(s) as a composer", and then in the next breath proceed to tell him he's misunderstanding his own experience, of which you know precisely nothing.

I've had songs write themselves. I certainly wouldn't refer to it as me "being in the zone" or any zone. When it's happened I've had very little to do with it besides writing it down. Not much different than being a stenographer. I have also "been in the zone" when it comes to writing and it's a completely different experience to "the song writing itself".