You have written a song but you can't make it groove the way it should

[lovenara]

Do you use sequencer when composing?
Try import groove you like into it then maybe you have to alter the melody a bit

[NaturalBlack]

I am usually the opposite of you but when Im building up a track the groove is my main focus maybe adding the groove at the end is your problem. I've been focusing on harmony and melody first lately and it has been helping get me back into that mindset.

[Naindurth]

Do you work alone?
I find that working with others often yields the best results. You'll have to let go a little and keep an open mind to others input.
I had my "I can do everything on my own" stage, and while it was rewarding, sharing my music with people is really enlightening.
Of course, share it with someone with skills and criteria. Criteria being the most important part.

[brockorama]

Jam it without a click and lay the drums in by hand. Sound better? Thought so.

[traumerei1838]

Groove templates. Find a loop with the groove in your head, slice it up with reccyle or groove inspector (whatever opt 8 is in PT), save it as a groove file, quantize everything with that

[danerius]

Originally Posted by cloudgazer

Someone familiar with this kind of problem?

This unfortunate situation has haunted most of my songs the last YEARS.

I've made music since the age of six, and harmonically/melodically I have never had any trouble. Also drum patterns and basslines has fitted perfectly in my earlier songs, but in the last years, my songs have started to demand more creativity in this area.

I've always heard the result in my inner ear when I compose, and I always have known how all the instruments should work together. But it seems that this 'imaginational power' has grown too strong, while my ability to bring it into the world hasn't followed. I can always 'feel' the groove in the song, but it is so much harder to define it..

There is no problem to make a groovy bassline/drumtrack from scratch, but it is another story to tailor a groove to song that is already made.

What the heck to do, to acquire that skill ???

Any thoughts are welcome.

Work with people that have tons of groove and little songwriting in them

Regards /Bo

[initialsBB]

I would say that a groove is by definition simple and repetitive. I find that often when I have written something that I really like melodically and harmonically but I'm having trouble getting it to groove, it's because rhythmically there is too much going on in the various parts. Your melody, chord progression, guitar riffs, bassline, etc. will all have a rhythm to them, and it's tempting to play in the holes and have all of these things kind of interacting and interlocking in a complex way. Which can then leave you in a situation where there isn't a unified groove as a skeleton beneath the whole song.

So the answer there is to strip it back down to the melody and any other important musical parts and try to find a groove within that. Then you may have to simplify and rewrite what the different instruments are doing in your arrangement so that they reinforce the groove rather than conflicting with it.

I may be way off base here, but I think if you're able to hear complex arrangements in your head this could very well be what's going on. You hear all of these different shifting rhythmic relationships and counterpoints and you probably make things increasingly complex in order to keep it interesting for yourself. As you're working on it you can hear all of the interesting grooves going on between the different parts, but then when you take a step back and hear it as a whole, there isn't one unified groove driving the whole piece.

[modularjack]

I'm not sure that this makes a whole lot of sense unless you are using some sort of step sequencer or trying to draw a beat into a MIDI piano roll or something? If you can hear the rhythm then tap it in on your MIDI keyboard and do not quantize. Quantizing sucks the groove out of your MIDI data. Do you have drum pads/triggers? I do find it a lot easier with rubbery drum buttons to play percussion as opposed to a MIDI keyboard but they both work just fine. Trying to draw in a drum beat into a grid with a mouse and have it come out groovey? Not so much.

[cloudgazer]

Originally Posted by initialsBB

I would say that a groove is by definition simple and repetitive. I find that often when I have written something that I really like melodically and harmonically but I'm having trouble getting it to groove, it's because rhythmically there is too much going on in the various parts. Your melody, chord progression, guitar riffs, bassline, etc. will all have a rhythm to them, and it's tempting to play in the holes and have all of these things kind of interacting and interlocking in a complex way. Which can then leave you in a situation where there isn't a unified groove as a skeleton beneath the whole song.

So the answer there is to strip it back down to the melody and any other important musical parts and try to find a groove within that. Then you may have to simplify and rewrite what the different instruments are doing in your arrangement so that they reinforce the groove rather than conflicting with it.

I may be way off base here, but I think if you're able to hear complex arrangements in your head this could very well be what's going on. You hear all of these different shifting rhythmic relationships and counterpoints and you probably make things increasingly complex in order to keep it interesting for yourself. As you're working on it you can hear all of the interesting grooves going on between the different parts, but then when you take a step back and hear it as a whole, there isn't one unified groove driving the whole piece.

Hi thanks for answering.
When it comes to stripping it down to the core, simplify and rewrite what the different instruments do on my songs, I've tried so many different combinations. Looks like Im always getting a bit closer, but never to the point where it actually works. I'm actually thinking of just leave them and write new songs when I hopefully get back to the right path where I was before..

'you probably make things increasingly complex in order to keep it interesting for yourself' - this is exactly what happened really. At some point I wandered off into bad habits. I have to find a way to get back on track again, some kind of therapy

I havent really played other's music for a long time, and I think I just have to leave songwriting for some month and only be a musician. Just to get groove and the right kind of 'simplicity' back into the system.

[cloudgazer]

Originally Posted by modularjack

I'm not sure that this makes a whole lot of sense unless you are using some sort of step sequencer or trying to draw a beat into a MIDI piano roll or something? If you can hear the rhythm then tap it in on your MIDI keyboard and do not quantize. Quantizing sucks the groove out of your MIDI data. Do you have drum pads/triggers? I do find it a lot easier with rubbery drum buttons to play percussion as opposed to a MIDI keyboard but they both work just fine. Trying to draw in a drum beat into a grid with a mouse and have it come out groovey? Not so much.

Thats a good advice. I dont know if it solves the core of the problem about finding the right pattern though. Ive always used the mouse but in cases where I actually have the right pattern it has worked quite well. But maybe there are cases where the pattern actually has been about right, but the quantizing has made it lifeless.

[cloudgazer]

Originally Posted by Naindurth

Do you work alone?
I find that working with others often yields the best results. You'll have to let go a little and keep an open mind to others input.
I had my "I can do everything on my own" stage, and while it was rewarding, sharing my music with people is really enlightening.
Of course, share it with someone with skills and criteria. Criteria being the most important part.

Yeah, many times I wish I had someone to work with on those songs. But - it may sound strange - I find it hard to communicate my own songs before they are arranged like they should be. Some of the songs that I've actually managed to finish, sounds only like a shadow of itself when played with simple chords and melody, the feel is completely different. So it is hard to get input from others because of that.

I have a co-writer in another project, we meet for three hours and it always ends in a new song. It is a completely different approach. It is kind of 'let it randomly become what it wants to become' - instead of 'let it become what I already hear in my inner ear'. There are strength and weaknesses with both approaches though.

[sventvkg]

Play to your strengths man..If you aren't good at producing them up, get someone else to do it. Just WRITE GREAT Melodies and great songs...Let someone else who is stronger in the orchestrating and producing/arrangement areas, handle that.

[MarkSmith]

If you're really not feeling the groove of the song as-is... practice, practice, practice. Once you know the song inside and out, approach it like a cover song and re-write the groove/arrangement.

[Tinderwet]

Originally Posted by cloudgazer

I've always heard the result in my inner ear when I compose...

That's all you need! Now try creating grooves only, using the same "inner ear" method. Them you can mix and match your best grooves and your best melodies/progressions.

[brockorama]

Originally Posted by cloudgazer

Thats a good advice. I dont know if it solves the core of the problem about finding the right pattern though.

Yes, but it gives you the solution of creating the pattern yourself from scratch. That is the preferred method IMO. Create your own grooves. Its fun, and always better.

[Irefay Agondray]

Amen to that

[Irefay Agondray]

Originally Posted by brockorama

Jam it without a click and lay the drums in by hand. Sound better? Thought so.

Amen to that

[Heyclown]

Post one of your productions please. Or just a snippet of the groove.
On the subject; co-work with people that master the groove better than you.
Max Martin once said:
"With the mixing of Ops I did it again; after a week Rami and I realized the mix sounded like shit. It didn\t groove. So we scrapped it and went back to bar one. 18 days later the mix was finished."

We have all stopped some times; finding out that our arrangement and mix doesn\t have the groove you hear in nowadays hits. Having the skills to stop and say that tells me you have come far. Now your job is to find out what makes a great groove in other songs, and to learn to put it into your mixes/arrangements. That takes practice - over and over again.
Go for it!