Guitar cab questions

[el cochino]

I'm in the market for a new guitar cab to use in my bedroom studio. It'll replace my old Marshall JCM 800 4x12".

I have a closet in my room that I use as a vocal/guitar booth, but when I crank the amp, it's still too loud in the "control room" to tell what is coming from the microphone and my neighbors will go nuts,too! Therefore I want to build an iso box inside the closet, but it will turn out pretty darn big if I have to fit the 4x12" inside, plus I'd rather have a nicer cab with V30s anyway.

Here's a picture of the booth - the dimensions are: 2,5 m x 1,7 m x 1,8 m (8,2' x 5,6' x 6')



Now here's my questions:

Will a 2x12" cab be capable to produce a huge metal sound when recorded - I have absolutely no experience with them?

Which brand would you recommend? (8 Ohms preferred)

What would be the dimensions for a suitable iso box?

Thanks for your advice,

Martin

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by el cochino
Will a 2x12" cab be capable to produce a huge metal sound when recorded

Absolutely... so will a Fender "Champ"... however, if you have a real hardon to continue with a JCM-800 in an apartment with neighbors... I'd recommend you check out a Palmer PGA-04 speaker cabinet simulation box. They provide a load so you don't pop the output transformer on your amp... have a couple of filter adjustments to define the speaker "tone"... and best of all... run direct into whatever the hell you're recording to... so all anyone can hear from your instrument is it's acoustic sound in the room... or what's coming from your monitors.

Best of luck with it.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by Fletcher
Absolutely... so will a Fender "Champ"... however, if you have a real hardon to continue with a JCM-800 in an apartment with neighbors... I'd recommend you check out a Palmer PGA-04 speaker cabinet simulation box. They provide a load so you don't pop the output transformer on your amp... have a couple of filter adjustments to define the speaker "tone"... and best of all... run direct into whatever the hell you're recording to... so all anyone can hear from your instrument is it's acoustic sound in the room... or what's coming from your monitors.

Best of luck with it.

Thanks Fletcher! I was thinking of getting me a Palmer box or even the Motherload, but I also want to have the option of a miced signal and mix both to taste later. Has anybody tried the Motherload, yet?

[jbuntz]

4x12s seems to have a bit more bottom, even when recorded, but it's not something you can't compensate with a different mic or different mic placement. Plus, fewer speakers is usually a bit more clear. The type of speaker will probably have a bigger affect than number. Vintage 30's are a safe bet, and they are actually rated misleadingly at 60w each so even with a 100w amp (which is pretty ridiculous for recording) it will work fine assuming there's no impedance mismatching.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by jbuntz
4x12s seems to have a bit more bottom, even when recorded, but it's not something you can't compensate with a different mic or different mic placement. Plus, fewer speakers is usually a bit more clear. The type of speaker will probably have a bigger affect than number. Vintage 30's are a safe bet, and they are actually rated misleadingly at 60w each so even with a 100w amp (which is pretty ridiculous for recording) it will work fine assuming there's no impedance mismatching.

Thanks for the input! I know that 100w are overkill for recording but the JCM 800 sounds great and I don't have to crank it until power tube distortion, I just want to drive the speakers hard enough. I have a Mesa 50. calibre too, and that beast is just as loud. I tried several class A amps, but they couldn't even touch the Marshall for metal sounds.

And since we are already speaking about mics, what would complement my Chandler TG-2 and my Siemens V72s? I have the classic SM57 and a 414, but would love to try something else. Royers and Baby Bottles seem to be very appreciated here.

Cheers,

Martin

[RinnyTin]

I've found my Bogner 1x12 gives me a more focused sound and better low end at a more reasonable volume than bigger cabs. I've got the Celestion Vintage 30 and the closed/ported Shiva cab and am just loving it. Worth a look/listen IMO.

[mplancke]

Originally posted by el cochino
Thanks for the input! I know that 100w are overkill for recording but the JCM 800 sounds great and I don't have to crank it until power tube distortion, I just want to drive the speakers hard enough. I have a Mesa 50. calibre too, and that beast is just as loud. I tried several class A amps, but they couldn't even touch the Marshall for metal sounds.
Martin

A 100 watt amp isn't overkill, they are designed to drive two speaker cabs instead of one with the 50 watt. A 100 watter is overkill with a single cab but starts to act a lot more like a 50 watter when you hook up that second cab.

Mark

[el cochino]

Originally posted by RinnyTin
I've found my Bogner 1x12 gives me a more focused sound and better low end at a more reasonable volume than bigger cabs. I've got the Celestion Vintage 30 and the closed/ported Shiva cab and am just loving it. Worth a look/listen IMO.

I've read good reviews about Bogner cabs, but I have never seen or heard one in Austria. I'll ask my local music store if they can order one for me to try, because these little suckers sell for over $ 900,- new!

Thanks for your input!

[bassmac]

My 50w JCM800 & 4x12 fills up a room like nothing else, but for recording I use a Mesa Boogie 3/4 tuned back cab. (V30) and a single '57. It's a little more open sounding than a closed back - but it still has pretty good focus too. I have the cab in another room, and also use a THD Hot Plate to knock off a few more db as well.

BTW: The 1x12 Bogner sounds great - but the price is crazy. The Boogie 1x12 Recto cab. seems like the same thing for less $$$.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by bassmac
My 50w JCM800 & 4x12 fills up a room like nothing else, but for recording I use a Mesa Boogie 3/4 tuned back cab. (V30) and a single '57. It's a little more open sounding than a closed back - but it still has pretty good focus too. I have the cab in another room, and also use a THD Hot Plate to knock off a few more db as well.

BTW: The 1x12 Bogner sounds great - but the price is crazy. The Boogie 1x12 Recto cab. seems like the same thing for less $$$.

The Mesa would be easier to get in Austria as well. I have two 4x12" Rectifier cabs that I like alot, so I guess I will give their 1x12" a try.

Cheers!

[maz[music]]

Give the Z Best by Dr. Z Amps a try... it's a most excellent 2x12- closed back, ported, tons of low- I recently sold mine because it had too much lows for the head I was using it with (AC15-ish).

www.drzamps.com

[drundall]

Originally posted by Fletcher
Absolutely... so will a Fender "Champ"...

Never heard that happen...

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by mplancke
A 100 watt amp isn't overkill, they are designed to drive two speaker cabs instead of one with the 50 watt. A 100 watter is overkill with a single cab but starts to act a lot more like a 50 watter when you hook up that second cab.

But you're still pushing twice as much air as compared to one cab. A 100 watt head is still louder then a 50 no matter how you slice it.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by maz[music]
Give the Z Best by Dr. Z Amps a try... it's a most excellent 2x12- closed back, ported, tons of low- I recently sold mine because it had too much lows for the head I was using it with (AC15-ish).

www.drzamps.com

Sounds like a nice cab and lows are very important for my type of sound, but the price (€ 950,-) isn't exactly a bargain either. Mesa has a Thiele ported 1x12" loaded with EV speakers for half the price. Has anybody heard this cab?

I will have to build an iso box for the cab, so I prefer a smaller size design, but don't want to give up on the sound. Has anybody tried the demeter silent cabinet?

Cheers,

Martin

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by el cochino
I tried several class A amps, but they couldn't even touch the Marshall for metal sounds.

And since we are already speaking about mics, what would complement my Chandler TG-2 and my Siemens V72s? I have the classic SM57 and a 414, but would love to try something else. Royers and Baby Bottles seem to be very appreciated here.

Martin,

You should be fine with the TG2... there are many other great preamps that excel at heavy guitar sounds (just about anything in the Neve/API lineage), but unless you need more channels, the TG2 should sound great with most mics for that purpose. V72s are wonderful as well, but wouldn't be my first choice for tight, heavy guitar sounds, although i'm sure YMMV.

Class A amps have a very different feel and response, i agree with you... it's hard to top an 800 for metal-type sounds. I have a 2203 50-watt single channel head, must be about 20 years old by now, excellent shape, and i swear i'll never part with it. Got it dirt cheap at a time when everyone wanted Mesas fuuck

As for extra mics, the Royer 121 and Baby Bottle have both been tried and tested on guitars with great success, and either presents you with a solid alternative or addition to what you're hearing with a 57 or 414. I'd also suggest a Sennheiser e609 Silver for a cheaper alternative, or a Senn. 421 also.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by jpaudio
Martin,

You should be fine with the TG2... there are many other great preamps that excel at heavy guitar sounds (just about anything in the Neve/API lineage), but unless you need more channels, the TG2 should sound great with most mics for that purpose. V72s are wonderful as well, but wouldn't be my first choice for tight, heavy guitar sounds, although i'm sure YMMV.

Class A amps have a very different feel and response, i agree with you... it's hard to top an 800 for metal-type sounds. I have a 2203 50-watt single channel head, must be about 20 years old by now, excellent shape, and i swear i'll never part with it. Got it dirt cheap at a time when everyone wanted Mesas fuuck

As for extra mics, the Royer 121 and Baby Bottle have both been tried and tested on guitars with great success, and either presents you with a solid alternative or addition to what you're hearing with a 57 or 414. I'd also suggest a Sennheiser e609 Silver for a cheaper alternative, or a Senn. 421 also.

Thanks for your advice! I'll give all these microphones a try, because I don't think the SM57 (on it's own) is the best choice for big chunky guitars even though it's a standard, and the 414 doesn't do it for me at all.

I'm very satisfied with the Chandler, but didn't have the oportunity to try the Siemens pres yet. I ordered a Tab Funkenwerk rack from their German distributer, but I'm still waiting for it, impatiently.

I totally agree with you on the Marshall vs Mesa issue - the JCM 800 is a tone monster compared to Rectumfryers. I hate the flabby bass response of this amp and it's over compressed sound. Even though I play low tunings, I'm a big fan of classic rock guitar sounds rather than modern nu metal "tone". When I started to play death metal in the mid 80s, I used the typical Boss pedal/no mids/ultra high gain setup and it took me many years to get a real big guitar sound. Nowadays I'm using tons of mids and very little distortion (for this type of music, of course ) and my live sound is huge and it cuts through well, but I still haven't figured out how to capture it on my recordings.

Cheers,

Martin

[mplancke]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
But you're still pushing twice as much air as compared to one cab. A 100 watt head is still louder then a 50 no matter how you slice it.

Right, but not by much.

My point was more that a 100 watt amp behaves more like a 50 watt when hooked up to the proper load which is 2 cabs instead of one. You are able to get the power amp stage to saturate where you don't get that effect when you run a 100 watt into a single 4x12 cab.

Mark

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by mplancke
Right, but not by much.

My point was more that a 100 watt amp behaves more like a 50 watt when hooked up to the proper load which is 2 cabs instead of one. You are able to get the power amp stage to saturate where you don't get that effect when you run a 100 watt into a single 4x12 cab.

Mark

You're absolutely right... a 100-watter wants to see a pair of cabs, and will saturate and break up more like a 50-watter through a single cab of the same impedance. You'll be moving more air with a pair of cabs, but in a different way than if a 100w head was going into a single cab. The configuration won't seem as loud because the speakers won't be working as hard, yet there will be twice as many speakers so it will naturally sound fuller.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by el cochino


Will a 2x12" cab be capable to produce a huge metal sound when recorded - I have absolutely no experience with them?

I have the 4x12 Marshall with Vintage 30 celestions...but I always use the stereo setting (8 ohm) so it only utilizes 2 12's. And, I only mic one speaker (lately I've just been doing two mics coincindent on the single speaker about 8" from the cone). I couldn't ask for anything heavier or great sounding, from there it's the actual player, amp, and guitar (in that order)

[toledo3]

When you start getting into using two 4-12 cabs, it is harder to get a focused sound, IMO. 2-12's are just about right, but even then, one can definitely get into blaring "ear shut down" territory. Actually, I think that part of my distaste is with the closed back design. To each their own.

I have always preferred 10 inch speakers, but my tastes are more "classic rock". Actually, there have been many killer classic rock tracks cut with 10 inch, or even 8-inch speakers... even those little pignose amps (6 inch speakers?). One does not have to use a big cab to get a big sound- it's the exact opposite sometimes.

I have an old marshall 50 watt that I use with my super reverb speakers (4-10's) or a musicman 2-12 w/ bass reflex cab. I almost never use the 4-12 cab.

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
A 100 watt head is still louder then a 50 no matter how you slice it.

Yeah... 3db... whoop de doo...

Te thing is how the speakers are overdriven, which personally, I haven't found to be all that wonderfully musical in a whole lot of instances... however, I have found that by pulling the two outside tubes on a 100w Marshall I can get a better tone out of one cabinet... especially a 2x 12" cabinet... I've also found that by rewiring the inside of any speaker cabinet with heavier wire [I usually use 10awg. on my cabinets... but I'm half an animal] I get far better performance from the speakers as well.

One of my absolute favorite "metal guitar" recording tricks is to use a 100w amp with 2 cabinets in a very small closet.

The idea here is to turn up the amp so loud that you are physically compressing the air in the room... it's not a real love fest for some of the more fragile ribbon mics... but it will very often net the sound I'm looking for on a recording.

It's also not something to try unless you're planning on moving out of your apartment later in the day because your neighbors will be circling the building with torches and pitchforks ready to kill you.

Best of luck.

[Jules]

Yeah, why IS it that the best metal sounds come fron a concrete closet in some stairs?



"I have the 4x12 Marshall with Vintage 30 celestions...but I always use the stereo setting (8 ohm) so it only utilizes 2 12's. And, I only mic one speaker"


Hmmm I do this, I have an Engl cab with Vintage Clestion 30's speakers on one side and a pair of ???? (other Engl type) on the other..

Turns out we just use the Vintage side, and I WAS worried that only using ONE half of the cab I wasnt getting the full 'whoomph" possible...

So I have my doubts on this onesided usage thang,

You thoughts Nathan? Have you figured out a sound difference between all speakers on and one side only?

[el cochino]

Originally posted by NathanEldred
I have the 4x12 Marshall with Vintage 30 celestions...but I always use the stereo setting (8 ohm) so it only utilizes 2 12's. And, I only mic one speaker (lately I've just been doing two mics coincindent on the single speaker about 8" from the cone). I couldn't ask for anything heavier or great sounding, from there it's the actual player, amp, and guitar (in that order)

Nathan, when using only 2 speakers in a 4x12" cab, it's still different than a regular 2x12" because of the enclosure size, right? Removing/disconnecting two speakers in my cab (mine doesn't have the stereo/mono option) wouldn't really solve my problem, even though it might be slightly quieter. I still have to build some kind of iso box to fit it in, otherwise I won't be able to monitor what comes from the microphones. I'd rather build one for a smaller size cab than a 4x12", but I'm wondering if I still could get the "whoomph" from a 2x12" or even better 1x12" design.

Thiele ported cabs seem to reproduce good lows, but I've never heard one and would be curious to hear some opinions of experinced AEs who worked with them. I really don't care if the cab sounds good in a band context, because I'll only use it in my studio.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by Fletcher
Yeah... 3db... whoop de doo...

Te thing is how the speakers are overdriven, which personally, I haven't found to be all that wonderfully musical in a whole lot of instances... however, I have found that by pulling the two outside tubes on a 100w Marshall I can get a better tone out of one cabinet... especially a 2x 12" cabinet... I've also found that by rewiring the inside of any speaker cabinet with heavier wire [I usually use 10awg. on my cabinets... but I'm half an animal] I get far better performance from the speakers as well.

One of my absolute favorite "metal guitar" recording tricks is to use a 100w amp with 2 cabinets in a very small closet.

The idea here is to turn up the amp so loud that you are physically compressing the air in the room... it's not a real love fest for some of the more fragile ribbon mics... but it will very often net the sound I'm looking for on a recording.

It's also not something to try unless you're planning on moving out of your apartment later in the day because your neighbors will be circling the building with torches and pitchforks ready to kill you.

Best of luck.

Isn't there a risk to fry the output transformer of the amp when pulling 2 tubes? Somebody recommended me to change the transformer too when running the amp on 2 tubes only and as far as I remember you have to change the impedance setting on your amp as well. I just don't know if it was half the tubes is double the impedance or the other way around.

Cheers,

Martin

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by el cochino
Isn't there a risk to fry the output transformer of the amp when pulling 2 tubes? Somebody recommended me to change the transformer too when running the amp on 2 tubes only and as far as I remember you have to change the impedance setting on your amp as well. I just don't know if it was half the tubes is double the impedance or the other way around.

Cheers,

Martin

depends on the design of the amp... i've removed pairs of output tubes from Dual and Triple Rectifiers without any problems whatsoever... just be sure to remove either the outermost pair of innermost pair, since they work in tandem.

Never tried it on a Marshall since my JCM 800 is a 50-watter.

I've heard you can cause serious damage to a Vox AC30 or other similar Class A amp by removing any of the output tubes.

[jpaudio]

Originally posted by el cochino
Nathan, when using only 2 speakers in a 4x12" cab, it's still different than a regular 2x12" because of the enclosure size, right? Removing/disconnecting two speakers in my cab (mine doesn't have the stereo/mono option) wouldn't really solve my problem, even though it might be slightly quieter. I still have to build some kind of iso box to fit it in, otherwise I won't be able to monitor what comes from the microphones. I'd rather build one for a smaller size cab than a 4x12", but I'm wondering if I still could get the "whoomph" from a 2x12" or even better 1x12" design.

Thiele ported cabs seem to reproduce good lows, but I've never heard one and would be curious to hear some opinions of experinced AEs who worked with them. I really don't care if the cab sounds good in a band context, because I'll only use it in my studio.

IMHO, there's nothing you can't get from a good 2x12 with choice speakers that you get from any 4x12. There are always gonna be tonal differences from one cab to the next, one speaker to the next etc., but in terms of "whoomph", power, tight bottom, all the good stuff you want in a heavy guitar sound, a 2x12 should be more than adequate. Sometimes I think my Marshall 2x12 sounds tighter than some of the 4x12s I've recorded.

Here's a useful tip that not many people realize... the guitars don't really do all that much for the low end/low mids in a good modern heavy mix. In fact, they're often quite small if you had the chance to hear them solo'd. The trick is finding that special pocket where the drums, bass, and guitar all work together to create a ****in bulldozer, as opposed to any individual track doing it by itself. I still find myself overcompensating in the low end when I track guitars before bass... when bass is added i start violently filtering the bottom of the guitars, sometimes as far up as 150hz, and sucking out anywhere between 200hz and 400hz...the track seems to become tighter and way more powerful overall. With bass tracked first it's way easier to gain perspective of the guitar's tonal range when you're dialing in the sound initially.

[el cochino]

Originally posted by jpaudio
IMHO, there's nothing you can't get from a good 2x12 with choice speakers that you get from any 4x12. There are always gonna be tonal differences from one cab to the next, one speaker to the next etc., but in terms of "whoomph", power, tight bottom, all the good stuff you want in a heavy guitar sound, a 2x12 should be more than adequate. Sometimes I think my Marshall 2x12 sounds tighter than some of the 4x12s I've recorded.

Here's a useful tip that not many people realize... the guitars don't really do all that much for the low end/low mids in a good modern heavy mix. In fact, they're often quite small if you had the chance to hear them solo'd. The trick is finding that special pocket where the drums, bass, and guitar all work together to create a ****in bulldozer, as opposed to any individual track doing it by itself. I still find myself overcompensating in the low end when I track guitars before bass... when bass is added i start violently filtering the bottom of the guitars, sometimes as far up as 150hz, and sucking out anywhere between 200hz and 400hz...the track seems to become tighter and way more powerful overall. With bass tracked first it's way easier to gain perspective of the guitar's tonal range when you're dialing in the sound initially.

Now that's some helpful information - thanks alot JP!
I'll try the bass first route as well as some 2X12"s.

Cheers,

Martin

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Fletcher
Yeah... 3db... whoop de doo...

Te thing is how the speakers are overdriven, which personally, I haven't found to be all that wonderfully musical in a whole lot of instances... however, I have found that by pulling the two outside tubes on a 100w Marshall I can get a better tone out of one cabinet... especially a 2x 12" cabinet... I've also found that by rewiring the inside of any speaker cabinet with heavier wire [I usually use 10awg. on my cabinets... but I'm half an animal] I get far better performance from the speakers as well.

Yup. One question. Why yank the two outside tubes? If you yank the inner pair the outside pair will run a bit cooler and will let the outside pair run cooler which should make everything more better right? Or am I wrong on that one...

I still have to say 8x12's pushing air is louder then 4x12's pushing the same room with the same power behind it. Sure as hell feels great to have that behind you though.

[Andy Sneap]

OK heres a few things, if you take the two outside power amp tubes out, drop the impedence one setting...thats what I was always told to do anyway.
I've got loads of different cabs here, and the one I keep coming back to is a Marshall with vintage 30's wired to 8 ohms. I have a Boogie with vintage 30's rated at 16ohms and it sounds completely different. I've got a couple of Marshalls with greenback 25's and they sound pretty good, but the 30's definately have a bit more depth without getting to phasey like the standard 75's. Though, I also find the 75's work better with standard tuning, and the lower the tuning, you need more mid range which is where the tighter speakers help.
I've tried a few iso box ideas over the years, none with much success, but if you're in a house you may have no option, you should check Randall out, they do a recording iso box, 1x12 with mic attachments etc, looks pretty cool, no idea what it sounds like tho.
http://www.randallamplifiers.com/pro.../isolation.asp

[el cochino]

Originally posted by Andy Sneap
OK heres a few things, if you take the two outside power amp tubes out, drop the impedence one setting...thats what I was always told to do anyway.
I've got loads of different cabs here, and the one I keep coming back to is a Marshall with vintage 30's wired to 8 ohms. I have a Boogie with vintage 30's rated at 16ohms and it sounds completely different. I've got a couple of Marshalls with greenback 25's and they sound pretty good, but the 30's definately have a bit more depth without getting to phasey like the standard 75's. Though, I also find the 75's work better with standard tuning, and the lower the tuning, you need more mid range which is where the tighter speakers help.
I've tried a few iso box ideas over the years, none with much success, but if you're in a house you may have no option, you should check Randall out, they do a recording iso box, 1x12 with mic attachments etc, looks pretty cool, no idea what it sounds like tho.
http://www.randallamplifiers.com/pro.../isolation.asp

Thanks Andy, your advice is always welcome here when it comes to metal guitars!

I've seen the Randall iso cab as well as some other designs, but never tried them so I can't comment on them. The idea is pretty cool, but I think the enclosures are to small. I was thinking of building something bigger so the cab can breath - something like a tiny-room-in-small-room construction.
Even though I live in an apartment building I can turn up the amp pretty loud. It's an old building with massive walls and my neighbours are very forgiving. I also have the opportunity to record during daytime when everybody is at work. My main concern is my monitoring situation.