Pedal Steel/Lap Steel question

[RyanPitch]

First, let me say that while I know a ton about electric and acoustic guitars, I know close to nothing about pedal/lap steel guitars.

Due to space, size, cost, sound, not being able to fit our gear into our cars on our way to shows, lack of the use of pedals, and sundry other reasons, I have a player (who also doesn't know anything about pedal steels) who is going to switch from pedal steel to a lap steel.

1.) What brands/types would you recommend?
2.) Are there any lap steels that necessarily sound more like a pedal steel than others?
3.) We're using it as a non-lead instrument in a rock band, as exhibited in the song here.
4.) Are all lap steels 6-strings?
5.) Any other thoughts/recommendations?

Thanks, you guys rock.

[xist]

I'm curious about this instrument.
May I ask which is the difference between pedal and lap steel (pictures are welcome)? And can the lap steel (I guess plugging it to a volume pedal) produce that typical smooth exotic/ambient swell sound?

Sorry if these are dummy questions

[Agli]

In PedalSteel guitars the most well known brands are probably Sho-Bud and Emmons. Emmons are really nice. I have a Zane Beck Custom PedalSteel which sounds really good. Of the modern ones, the GFI seems to be reliable and popular.
I dont have much experience with lap steels, so I cant comment on the sound of different types. Avoid the really cheap lapsteels, as the pickups sound like shit. I had one but I cant remember what type it was (it cost under 200$). The GoldTone and the Gretsch look pretty cool but I have'nt heard them.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Originally Posted by RyanPitch

1.) What brands/types would you recommend?
2.) Are there any lap steels that necessarily sound more like a pedal steel than others?
3.) We're using it as a non-lead instrument in a rock band, as exhibited in the song here.
4.) Are all lap steels 6-strings?
5.) Any other thoughts/recommendations?

Thanks, you guys rock.

1. Look around for a vintage lap. You can usually find them for around $200 or so. All the big guitar makers had them...Gibson, Fender, Gretsch, etc....but I think the better ones are from the smaller makers like Supro, Alamo, Dickerson, Oahu, etc. Dickerson and Valco basically made tons of these for other comanies by rebranding them to whatever. I just picked up a new one that has a music store brand from Toledo, OH. It's more than likely a Dickerson made as it has the classic MOTS (mother of toilet seat) finish on it.

2. Pedal steels are by definition different. Sure, they're both played in a similar manner, but pedal steels have the various pedals and levers that change the pitch of the notes. On a lap, you've got to use the bar to do that. You can sort of fake a few things, but the more complicated bends can only be had on a real pedal steel. As far as actual tone though....they're all probably going to sound similar.

4. There are different varieties of pedal and lap steels that have double necks and more than 6 strings per neck, but for the most part, the laps are generally going to be 6 strings. Typically tuned to an Open G or E is the most popular.

5. Use a small, off brand, dirtly little amp and they're amazing. I've got a little Valco made Airline amp that just kills with my laps.

m

[Will Box]

Check out Brads Page of Steel (http://www.well.com/~wellvis/steel.html)

[theblue1]

Of course, it's impossible to simulate all the tricky chord combinations you can get with pedals (the pedals "bend" notes) but a good lap player with a nice touch and a couple tricks up his sleeve can fill the hole left by a pedal steel player, even if he can't do all the fancy stuff. I've heard some really haunting lap steel stuff.

PS... a bit off topic -- okay, a lot -- but if you want to see some really smokin' pedal work, check out Robert Randolph who comes from the "Sacred Steel" black gospel pedal steel tradition but also plays some quite rockin' secular music, too. My version of Windows Media Center came with a great vid of Randolph doing a crazy-hot, hip-hop influenced number out on what looks like the streets of the Bronx...

This is a different vid, though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSldvVbVM3Y

[Haolemon]

I have modern lap steel made by Chandler. It is very nice and sounds great. They go for around $300, IIRC.

Many of the older lap steels are cool looking but don't sound too great. I agree that a very small old amp is great for this application.

[xist]

Thomann has this super cheap lap steel:
http://www.thomann.de/de/harley_benton_slider_ii.htm

Anyone tried it?

[pdlstl]

I played pedal steel for almost 30 years and spent 8 of those years in N'ville as a session player. Good ol' Local 257...

To answer your questions:

1. It's not really going to matter as it's just a slab of wood. Pickups/picks/amps/strings/effects/correct intonation/technique are a different story.

2. If you want it to sound like a pedal steel, use a pedal steel.

4. There is the occasional 8 string.

5. See number 2.

My very humble 2¢...

[Bluzzi]

After listening to the tune I'd say you would be OK with the lapsteel most of the times. The Pedal Steel is a much more complicated and expensive instrument that IMHO would be overkill for that type of music. If you go with a Pedal Steel get a good solid one! Get a brand name and not a starter model. You'll most probably get most of your money back if you resell and they are easier to play and sound better.
Also its not an easy instrument to get to first base with. It takes a while before you can play entire tunes on it, but I think you want more of a "background pad" sound so maybe its OK for you.

For lapsteel go with the above suggestions. Really any decent model will do. Get a volume pedal as well to get some of the atmospheric swells I presume you want in your sound.

Both great instruments in any case!

jim

[SteveE9C6]

Long time pedal steeler here. Check out the new MSA "Superslide".

MSA Superslide

Your pedal steel player doesn't know which lap steels to look at? That is bizarre.
I have been playing pedal steel since the 70's and have tons of friends in that community. Virtually every pedal steeler I know has opinions on every brand of everything! ... especially anything to do with steels.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by SteveE9C6

Long time pedal steeler here. Check out the new MSA "Superslide".

MSA Superslide

Your pedal steel player doesn't know which lap steels to look at? That is bizarre.
I have been playing pedal steel since the 70's and have tons of friends in that community. Virtually every pedal steeler I know has opinions on every brand of everything! ... especially anything to do with steels.

That looks really cool.

I almost sent a link to a lap player pal -- but I was afraid he'd fall in love and bust his no doubt measly bank (kinda like when he got that very pretty and VERY expensive Rickenbacker 12 Roger McGuinn model). He plays a very old Rick lap steel he picked up in some pawn shop a couple decades ago.

BTW... I know it goes without saying but I'm not sure anyone has, anyhow: some of the keys to a cool sound is good volume pedal technique and good done -- and, really, good reverb.

[Bluzzi]

That MSA looks and probably sounds fantastic but is overly expensive. Unless LapSteel is your main instrument I'd get a used one on eBay and go from there.

Most of the MSA players also play Pedal Steel and probably are into a very clean and precise sound. I have an old Supro which sounds great for 90% of things depeding on what amp settings you put it on.

But...Pedal Steel...better get a good one from the start and invest in learning time from a local experienced player.

I'd love to play the Pedal Steel but I have neither the time nor availability to a local instructor. I believe if you start with the proper fundamentals you can keep going after that with video instruction etc. Its that crucial start on that instrument.

Of course I am assuming your player does not play much Pedal Steel or he would know these answers.

I wish someone made a LapSteel that has a B bender or something similar. Not quite a Pedal Steel but something where we could just bend 1 or 2 strings. I think for Americana and Folk Rock styles that would be enough.

jim

[RyanPitch]

Originally Posted by Bluzzi

Of course I am assuming your player does not play much Pedal Steel or he would know these answers.

Ah, yes, very true. We're kind of a band that's hopefully more than the sum of its parts. We're a bunch of sloths who grew up with rock, punk, hardcore, alternative, etc. but with no Hawaiian, bluegrass, country, or any traditional pedal steel music. We have a trained violin player who didn't have parts on all of our songs, so we bought her a pedal steel and said, "Learn to play it!" She came up with some simple but solid lines. Nothing fancy, and she probably will never get "fancy" with it.

So I thank you all immensely for your answers. This thread has helped us a lot.

Bluzzi, you're right, we're into something that just fills the background.

SteveE9C6, great link there, but woah! Way expensive. I'd love to try one out and hear it in person. Beautiful instruments.

I also found a good website on this, and might try to build a simple lap steel. My roommate built his own electric fretless bass and it looks/sounds wonderful. He's got all the clamps, files, glue, epoxy, etc. that I could use. Thanks for all the insight everyone.

[Bluzzi]

I looked into building my own Pedal Steel and got quite deep into it before I decided it WAS NOT THE WAY TO GO!

DON'T DO IT !!!!!

Please don't as you will regret it. there is a huge difference between a Bass and a Pedal Steel (PS). The PS is a real sophiisticated instrument. Even decent PS intruments need constant attention.

Besides, I don't get it. You say you bought a PS guitar already so why do you need another one? (or did I miss something?).

She or He has to learn the basics of what the pedals and levers do. Then learn a standard E9th or C6th (I think) tuning to learn where the chords are (millions of places!).

Its an amazing instrument. I've never seen it used in your style! It would give you an original sound for sure. But I really believe one has to commit some time and real motivation to learning it.

Good luck with all this. In the end its about the musiic (play more build less intsruments).

jim

[RyanPitch]

Originally Posted by RyanPitch

and might try to build a simple lap steel.

Thanks, Bluzzi, but I was saying that I was going to build a LAP steel, not a pedal steel. Yeah, building a PS would be way difficult!

Lap steel is more like a block of wood, a nut, a saddle, 1 pickup, tuners. Heck you don't even really need a fretboard, although some decal fret markers or something would be nice. But thanks for all the advice. We will work on playing the pedal steel we already have better. It's a great instrument.

[R11]

Might want to check out this site. www.steelguitarforum.com Great place. Nice bunch of people. Good luck.

Roger