API A2D superclock questions

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by magibatalla

Thank you, Chris, much appreciated.
I haven't set up my Orpheus yet because I'm in the middle of a project and I prefer not to change anything in my computer until this work is done. I'm looking forward to take advantage of everything Orpheus has to offer.

Can someone from API confirm that A2D would handle an incoming superclock signal from the Orpheus? Thanx!

Chris just did,
The Orpheus can generate Super Clock,

[magibatalla]

So the ones in trouble are those unable to generate superclock signals?
Welcome back to my wish list, mr. A2D

[Lee Knight]

What I've done is try and use the A2D as the master for my 002. Fine there. But when I also use an ADAT/Lightpipe 8 converter, the new Aphex in this case, it pops, etc. The only solution is to then put the ADAT as the master. No pops, sounds great. But I'm then not using the super duper special API clock which seems a shame...

[Roc Mixwell]

Does the APHEX unit have AES inputs?

You can send the AES connection (which is unused when utilizing the SPDIF) into the said ADAT device, (i really don't know what I am posting this, because I highly doubt the APHEX device has AES)

Again,

An Apogee Big Ben would be crucial once you have introduced other digital gear into the equation. I don't think API should have to compromise their design because of Digi's inferior support of digital devices.

Have you guys ever noticed that NO ONE from Digi posts in threads like this. They know there shit sucks in this respect......I could be wrong about them posting, but they never provide answers to the public, from what I have seen anyway.

[Lee Knight]

Of course... you're correct about the Aphex lacking AES. It does have WC in. Wasn't API going to offer an optional WC out?

[Roc Mixwell]

I think so,

But obviously, because of threads like this, they have yet to implement that WC option.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Does the APHEX unit have AES inputs?

You can send the AES connection (which is unused when utilizing the SPDIF) into the said ADAT device, (i really don't know what I am posting this, because I highly doubt the APHEX device has AES)

Again,

An Apogee Big Ben would be crucial once you have introduced other digital gear into the equation. I don't think API should have to compromise their design because of Digi's inferior support of digital devices.

Have you guys ever noticed that NO ONE from Digi posts in threads like this. They know there shit sucks in this respect......I could be wrong about them posting, but they never provide answers to the public, from what I have seen anyway.

Digi's answer was the 003. The 002 is a relic.

The Aphex 142 requires word clock. From the manual:

The Model 142 has a word clock input on a standard BNC with an internal 75Ω terminating resistor.
If there is no word clock connected, the clock will be approximately 48kHz, but not exactly. It is highly
recommended that a 48kHz word clock be connected to the Model 142 even if the unit is not part of
an Anaconda system.

If you purchased a 142 but don't have a word clock source, then you will simply need a word clock source. But not any external clock will do: you need to have something take its sync from the ADAT output of the 002 and generate word clock from it, or take the AES output of the A2D and generate word clock from that. The A2D would remain master in that case.

A big Ben may be able to generate both superclock and word clock simulataneously...I don't know. But it will be overwhelmingly in your interest to take the 003 upgrade trade-in (with 1/2 price MPTK) for less money instead: you will not only get word clock for your 142, you'll get 8 far better converters in the 003 vs. the 002 and will be able to sync everything to the A2D as I do (but only when I'm using the A2D).

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by peeder

A big Ben may be able to generate both superclock and word clock simulataneously...I don't know.

It does generate super clock. WC outputs 5&6 can be set accordingly.
Check out the manual attached.

I was simply suggesting that one would use the BB to pass clock from the A2D's AES output to the BB AES input, as I often use the Big Ben as a clock distributor with our Radar system from the Radar AES output.

So, passing AES signal into the BB would then pass it the WC outputs,
So your other ADAT device would SYNC with the internal clock, not the super clock input on the A2D.

As far as the cost/benefit thing, its more than likely worth getting your shit to work properly.....002 now.........whatever later.

But I digress...

[peeder]

Well you know that the Big Ben is superfluous for 98% of studios and so selling one doesn't reduce demand for anything else.

[hanuman]

Though this topic is about clock issues on A2D I still like to ask: 'How is the A2D on acoustic and classical instruments and voices.' Is it what Adam Brass says 'suitable on anything' or is it clearly a rock\pop pre and less suitable for V\O, acoustic and classical.

(Or is it other then DAV, MM, Forssell, suitable all-round since you can drive the saturation and 'aggressiveness'...)

I am really interested since the unit that has been shipped here (I need pre AND A-D) is slightly damaged so I still can reconsider the options.

[Lee Knight]

Originally Posted by peeder

Digi's answer was the 003. The 002 is a relic.

The Aphex 142 requires word clock. From the manual:



If you purchased a 142 but don't have a word clock source, then you will simply need a word clock source. But not any external clock will do: you need to have something take its sync from the ADAT output of the 002 and generate word clock from it, or take the AES output of the A2D and generate word clock from that. The A2D would remain master in that case.

A big Ben may be able to generate both superclock and word clock simulataneously...I don't know. But it will be overwhelmingly in your interest to take the 003 upgrade trade-in (with 1/2 price MPTK) for less money instead: you will not only get word clock for your 142, you'll get 8 far better converters in the 003 vs. the 002 and will be able to sync everything to the A2D as I do (but only when I'm using the A2D).

So I'm clear... making the APHEX the master solves this this though, right? I understand I won't be using the nice clock in the API, but buy letting the APHEX be the master, everything (002, A2D, and APHEX) will be running at that clock speed, correct? This is what I've done and it sounds very good. The WC is only required if the APHEX isn't the master?

Do I understand or am I missing something?

An 003 is going to happen but not before my next 2 projects. This is all very good info in this thread by the way... thanks to everyone.

[peeder]

Originally Posted by hanuman

Though this topic is about clock issues on A2D I still like to ask: 'How is the A2D on acoustic and classical instruments and voices.' Is it what Adam Brass says 'suitable on anything' or is it clearly a rock\pop pre and less suitable for V\O, acoustic and classical.

(Or is it other then DAV, MM, Forssell, suitable all-round since you can drive the saturation and 'aggressiveness'...)

I am really interested since the unit that has been shipped here (I need pre AND A-D) is slightly damaged so I still can reconsider the options.

Well it's a great preamp but it is very aggressive and it's designed to have things cut over a dense mix. V/o and most vocals, acoustic and classical I would not pick the A2D for. Nor would I pick the converters in it for those either. I would ask in the Remote Recording forum what you should pick...it might be one of those you listed, plus a warmer set of converters.

Originally Posted by Lee Knight

So I'm clear... making the APHEX the master solves this this though, right? I understand I won't be using the nice clock in the API, but buy letting the APHEX be the master, everything (002, A2D, and APHEX) will be running at that clock speed, correct? This is what I've done and it sounds very good. The WC is only required if the APHEX isn't the master?

Do I understand or am I missing something?

An 003 is going to happen but not before my next 2 projects. This is all very good info in this thread by the way... thanks to everyone.

They are clear that you don't want to have the Aphex as master. You are kinda stuck in your current situation, unless you get something that will send word clock to the Aphex from an AES or SPDIF source. You are buying cheap stuff with corners cut and that's what you have to deal with. But before I ever bought a Big Ben (I don't think I will ever buy an external clock) I would get the 003 upgrade.

[Roc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by peeder

Well you know that the Big Ben is superfluous for 98% of studios and so selling one doesn't reduce demand for anything else.

doubtful,

[peeder]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

doubtful,

very.

[hanuman]

Thanks Peeder, did post it, appreciate the input!

[mickrich]

I am about to buy an a2d but these clocking issues are very confusing.
I record at 44.1 and use a mutec smartclock to clock my rig (01v96, digiface and isa220 with digital board).
The mutec can output superclock (x256) which at 44.1k = 11.2896 MHz.
According to the a2d user manual, the clock needs to be 20-26MHz to work. This is 44.1 x 512!.
Even a big ben won't send clock at x512, so to my question.
Can the a2d sync to wordclock "superclock" at 11.2896MHz or 44.1 x 256?, or can it only sync to superclock (x256) when you are running 88.2 or 96 KHz?
Michael
Trackmix recording studio

[peeder]

Originally Posted by mickrich

I am about to buy an a2d but these clocking issues are very confusing.
I record at 44.1 and use a mutec smartclock to clock my rig (01v96, digiface and isa220 with digital board).
The mutec can output superclock (x256) which at 44.1k = 11.2896 MHz.
According to the a2d user manual, the clock needs to be 20-26MHz to work. This is 44.1 x 512!.
Even a big ben won't send clock at x512, so to my question.
Can the a2d sync to wordclock "superclock" at 11.2896MHz or 44.1 x 256?, or can it only sync to superclock (x256) when you are running 88.2 or 96 KHz?
Michael
Trackmix recording studio

Well you know that superclock is the most error-prone approach because of the incredibly high bandwidth required and the fact there is no normal PLL buffering errors. The A2D will work best on internal sync.

I would just run the A2D as master when you are using its converters and go back to your earlier clock when you aren't.

I don't know if the A2D is requiring that clock speed for all external sync, or if they are just saying that for 88.2/96KHz. Ask API.

[mickrich]

Thanks Peeder.
I have mailed API about this, but also got the UK distro to check it for me, clocking to an external clock at 44.1K superclock, then SPDIF into a fireface so they check in the software control panel on the fireface if the sync was locked.
Everything clocked and held sync OK according to them. I am going to wait for a reply from API though before I finalize my order.
I plan to use this pre a lot, especially for tracking live drums so I need it to sync with the rest of my gear at all times, so reclocking to the API when I am using it, and clocking to the Mutec when I am not will not work for me.
I may have to go the route of getting a word clock distributor and use the API as a master>AES>WC distributor, then BNC to the rest of the gear. I really want this pre to work for me, but don't really want to mess with my stable clocking in the studio if I can help it.
I cannot understand why they could not have a standard word clock in on this unit. I wonder how many sales API are loosing because of the confusion surrounding this issue.

[peeder]

Implementing a high-quality PLL is one of the toughest challenges in making an ADC, and API punted on it. They do have a mod available I understand that adds one.

It would have been nice if they had at least included a word clock output to avoid the extra hassles but I have an RME ADI-4 DD which reclocks from the AES anyway so I don't have to worry.

[mickrich]

Originally Posted by peeder

Implementing a high-quality PLL is one of the toughest challenges in making an ADC, and API punted on it. They do have a mod available I understand that adds one.

It would have been nice if they had at least included a word clock output to avoid the extra hassles but I have an RME ADI-4 DD which reclocks from the AES anyway so I don't have to worry.

I just got an email from API telling me that I can not use 44.1KHz superclock to sync the unit unless I buy a $400 "upgrade" so the unit can accept standard word clock!!!
Thanks for your time Peeder, but I have a question for you re the RME reclock you mentioned. I am running an RME digiface clocked, along with the rest of my gear, to a Mutec smartclock. Do you know if the RME will reclock the A2D if I have no sync running to it (the A2D). I would not think so, but I may be wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Michael

[duvalle]

Originally Posted by peeder

Implementing a high-quality PLL is one of the toughest challenges in making an ADC, and API punted on it.

peeder, could you please tell me what "punted" means?
is that good or bad?

do you think the a2d is a good master clock or just ok?

[peeder]

Originally Posted by mickrich

I just got an email from API telling me that I can not use 44.1KHz superclock to sync the unit unless I buy a $400 "upgrade" so the unit can accept standard word clock!!!
Thanks for your time Peeder, but I have a question for you re the RME reclock you mentioned. I am running an RME digiface clocked, along with the rest of my gear, to a Mutec smartclock. Do you know if the RME will reclock the A2D if I have no sync running to it (the A2D). I would not think so, but I may be wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Michael

Nope I don't know you'll have to ask RME. Pity about the API sync issue...I'm not spending another $400.

Originally Posted by duvalle

peeder, could you please tell me what "punted" means?
is that good or bad?

do you think the a2d is a good master clock or just ok?

"Punted" is a term from american football, it means rather than trying something risky or high-effort, you give up and do something easier.

I don't think external clocks can be ranked so well. The transmission and the PLL of the slave clocks is far more important to the sound (according to Mr. Lavry). I've been running the A2D as master when I need it for a while and it's just as good as any other clock as far as I can tell. I have my DACs run on internal sync when possible to do so (Lavry's "Crystal" mode sounds best) and as I said I now have the SteadyClock of RME to reclock everything anyway so even a poor clock will give identical results, provided it stays within reasonable bounds.

If you like the sound of a given clock with a given PLL, you have to keep everything identical. Changing the transmission configuration, even adding another unit to the chain may change the sound, etc. Although I'm skeptical that the external clocks themselves ultimately differ much in their effect on a given PLL.

[soundrick]

I just bought the a2d, and when I took it out of the box, I had a little surprise......I think.

can anyone positively identify this as the "word clock" option?? If it is, then I just got really lucky on an already smoking deal!!



I haven't tested these BNC ins/outs yet, but I will.
My question though, is this: is it possible to have the original "superclock" and the word clock? Or does the mod defeat the superclock? I'm assuming the latter because there is no switch/option on the unit to select either-or. Unless it's automatic with whatever the incoming signal is to those inputs?

For now I'm going to be clocking a 002 through SPDIF with the superior (whether its word or super) clock, but I'm going to test these other two BNCs with my friends HD rig.

[gregohb]

Originally Posted by Kiwiburger

Yup - that's the basic problem with the A2D. Bad design call. You'll just have to sync everything else to it.

I'm thinking about buying one anyway. I've got a Lynx AES16 with SRC. I got the SRC option hoping (cross fingers) that it might be able to resolve problems like this. I figure if it can do on-they=fly sample rate conversion between totally different devices running off their own internal clocks, it might be able to deal with rogue boxes like this.

But who the hell knows? I'm not sure I want to be the guinea pig.

Its not necessarily a bad design - maybe it was an efficient design decision, and thats why its such a great value!

You can sync other API A2D's to the master one though.

[gollumsluvslave]

can anyone positively identify this as the "word clock" option?? If it is, then I just got really lucky on an already smoking deal!!

I can positively state that the 2 BNC connectors above the slave and Sync In (existing superclock in) are most definitely NOT in my A2D.

Where did you buy the A2D from? Was it 2nd hand?

Whilst it looks like you seem to have bagged a Word Clock In/Out option, I'd be a bit wary:-

1. As far as I know (and this may have changed recently), A2D did not even have any options available for Word Clock In/Out.
2. Supposing an option has become available, I'd want to see how this option affects my warranty.

Cheers

[soundrick]

Originally Posted by gollumsluvslave

I can positively state that the 2 BNC connectors above the slave and Sync In (existing superclock in) are most definitely NOT in my A2D.

Where did you buy the A2D from? Was it 2nd hand?

Whilst it looks like you seem to have bagged a Word Clock In/Out option, I'd be a bit wary:-

1. As far as I know (and this may have changed recently), A2D did not even have any options available for Word Clock In/Out.
2. Supposing an option has become available, I'd want to see how this option affects my warranty.

Cheers

I bought the unit as a "demo" from a very reputable API dealer. I asked about the warranty, but haven't received a reply yet.

According to a few posts in this thread, there is rumor of a word clock option that API could install for an extra fee ($400??). I just want to make sure this was installed by API, and not someone's experiment.

Surely someone else has had this mod done??

[peeder]

Originally Posted by soundrick

I bought the unit as a "demo" from a very reputable API dealer. I asked about the warranty, but haven't received a reply yet.

According to a few posts in this thread, there is rumor of a word clock option that API could install for an extra fee ($400??). I just want to make sure this was installed by API, and not someone's experiment.

Surely someone else has had this mod done??

You'd need a good shot of the internals hooked to those BNC's to know for sure. But I'd wager if it's from an authorized dealer it's an API-modded A2D. However, it may have been a prototype.

[soundrick]

Well, I just got a reply back, and it turns out this wasn't a demo. It came from the factory this way, full 5 year warranty.

I'm pretty happy, I never get lucky on this stuff, it's usually the other way around.

You might be right about the prototype thing. I just realized out of the box it had a little inspection tag from API, I just looked at it again, and it had all the "checkpoints" from sitting on someone's bench.

I'm going to test the wordclock ext and int with a DIGI 192, and Aurora 16. We'll run it through the paces and maybe I'll post some results if anyone's interested.

[gollumsluvslave]

Well, I just got a reply back, and it turns out this wasn't a demo. It came from the factory this way, full 5 year warranty.

Sweetness!

I'd deffo be interested in knowing how this performs.
Cheers