Neve output transformers from Altran sound incredible

[ROCK777]

I just recently purchased new Neve style output transformers from Steven Smith at Altran. I wired them up to some of my preamps and I am blown away. I also wired one up to one of consoles direct outs and these transformers have that N sound and they can take a 20 to 25hrz signal to + 26 db . They are really inexpensive and sound incredible. I have a set of Neve 33118's and with these transformers now my console preamps/eq's sound very close to my Neves. This is no B.S. Try them for yourself. I plan on purchasing more to finish wiring every direct out of my console. Steven Smith is a really cool person to deal with, A+. For me this is a breakthrough. It has taken my console to the next level. As always test with Your ears and you be the judge. But for me I am extremely pleased with them.

[MadGuitrst]

So um.......any more information about these magic audio wonders?

[squeegybug]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showp...2&postcount=11


Steve

[tigeba]

What is the part number for those? I just happen to be sitting here soldering together my Hamptone HVTP2 and it uses Altran input and output transformers. They could be custom, because I don't see the part number on the site.

[ROCK777]

What info are you looking for. I am sure they would be cool to test with any preamp if you like the color of N sound. My console's EQ's sound more colored with these transformers they also pass a cleaner low end now.They are easy on pocket also. Ask for Steven Smith 815.455.5650

[ROCK777]

On the Altran transformers I have a model # C-4000 200 ohms primary 600 ohm secondary.

[ROCK777]

Anybody try these Neve style output transformers yet ? What do you think.

[Barish]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

My console's EQ's sound Killer with these transformers.

I don't understand what a pair of trannies at the direct outs may have to do with how the channel EQs sound.

If an EQ is designed shite, it will sound shite no matter what you put after it.

I mean, I studied this fricking electronics engineering for some 10 years, right? Is there something that I'm missing?

Same goes for mic pres.

Also, what is "Neve" sound? Which "Neve" sound are we talking about here?

I have a pair of Neves here, and have heard and used a number of other Neve mic pre modules, including some converted 1072 line amps and this and that, and they all sounded different.

Was it that easy to have a Neve? So I've been obviously shafted by paying two grand on that bulky thing pretty bad, eh?

I mean, I've heard some bullshit until now, but nothing closer to that one.

It is a fact that the sound quality in most of Mr R Neve's designs relies on the transformer design, and the rest of the circuit is topographically pretty much textbook, but there is an important element of biasing to do in the circuitry in order to make it work with a transformer at the output to provide an intended result, according to the technical specs of that particular transformer... and that's where the Neve modules' strength is.... which also means, what you are doing is totally hit or miss affair, and it does not constitute any warranty over any particular result given the variety of different mixer designs available out there.

Sorry to say that, but this is the worst shilling I've ever come across, particularly after judging by your post count. If you are going to do it, you may as well do it right.

B.

[ROCK777]

Buy one for $22.00 and try it with your Golden ears info@altrancorp.com or (815.455.5650) . Or close your negitive mouth. After you hear the transformer in action post back. If you have something worth saying. Out of your own mouth ! "It is a fact that the sound quality in most of Mr R Neve's designs relies on the transformer design" That will change the sound of an eq . Bullshit is when you speak of something you haven't heard with your own ears. You buy one and try it if you don't like it I will buy it from you hows that for morale. Later Mr. Hair splitter

[ROCK777]

Anybody try these yet,and what do you think?

[Barish]

I thought this subject was over weeks ago.


Okay, let's deal with it once more and for all.


I don't need to buy a transformer to hear whether it sounds like a "Neve" (whatever that "Neve sound" means as I've questioned earlier on) when I have the real Neve here on my shelf.

Don't you get it?

What part of your body are you using to understand what's being told to you?


You won't get it until you sell your transformers, do you? tutt


But I can see your reasons.


Good luck. But just one last advice to you before you exit stage left:


You are barking up the wrong tree. You should try Prodigy Pro forums to sell iron.



Ooops... They sell Sowter already


But at least Sowter doesn't claim its transformers sound like "Neve".



Had Carnhill or Marinair claimed so then I would buy it, but other than that...



You are wasting your time. People here may be sluts for gear, but they are no fool.


And pushes like that won't work for anything other than the further embarrassment that causes to you.


Move on.


B.

[ROCK777]

If man created it once they will create it again if the demand is large enough. The public will pay for Quailty. I don't make money from these transformers I like the way they sound. On the other hand you haven't heard them so how can you even comment on something you haven't heard . I have original Neve micpre/eq's also that doesn't give me the right to be arrogant. So you can exit stage left. I started this thread for people Who have heard these transformers that excludes you so go elsewhere and be a jackass there. Anywhere but here . You are wasting my time and your own. You must have gotten your ass kicked alot in your life with an attitude like yours! TROLL

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

If man created it once they will create it again if the demand is large enough. The public will pay for Quailty. I don't make money from these transformers I like the way they sound. On the other hand you haven't heard them so how can you even comment on something you haven't heard . I have original Neve micpre/eq's also that doesn't give me the right to be arrogant. So you can exit stage left. I started this thread for people Who have heard these transformers that excludes you so go elsewhere and be a jackass there. Anywhere but here . You are wasting my time and your own. You must have gotten your ass kicked alot in your life with an attitude like yours!

Hi

Just to put my oar into this diatribe....

The word "Neve" is the most abused four letter word on these forums. By your posts here you are inferring that using product "X", it will turn product "Y" into "Neve" sounding paradise.

Please define "Neve" sound.

The 1053? The 1073? The 1081? The 31105? Are you telling me that by using product "X" in these units they will all sound the same?

I'll be frank... I deliberately avoided posting to this thread because of your over exuberance about the product you are raving about. I'm sure it's a great transformer but let's face it, they/you are jumping on the "let's milk the N word for all it's worth" bandwagon.

Any good quality transformer will make a amplifier sound different... better is a subjective issue. You could just as easily mention Sowter, Lundahl, Jensen, Carnhill, etc. Have you tried these?

For the record, your 33118 should drive a 6dB gain T1801 transformer... not a LO1166 or LO2567 equivalent which I suspect you are using. So it may sound grand but identical to an original 33118? I don't think so.

[ROCK777]

Hi ,Geoff I really respect you, you have been very helpful when I have emailed you in the past and I thank you for it . I have a set of 33118's and they sound great to my ears . I have also had a chance to use a set of 1084's and they also sound great to my ears . But these transformers can handle a 20 to 25hrz signal at +26db but the core is also larger than the core in the output transformers in my 33118's so I imagine that is why. There was alot of work put in to reverse engineering these transformers and it shows by the sound and the huge lowend that they are putting out. Now the transformers they used to study when building these were original Marinair LO1166 So some were taken apart in the process. I mean no disrespect to you but why would you believe it is impossible to recreate a very close clone of a vintage transformer. You are a wise man and you know nothing is impossible with the proper intelligence. The fact is that they really do sound great . I know you worked for Neve and again I respect you for it but people should listen to them before saying they don't sound authentic. Now I also know you can get original Neve transformers wound for you and while that is awesome the general public cannot . So this is a way for people that live in the USA to get a transformer made in the USA for less money that is a very good representation of an original Neve transformer and there is nothing wrong with that.Not everyone can afford a vintage Neve mic pe/eq. But may still want to get very close to the sound . I hope I have not offended you in anyway.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

Hi ,Geoff I really respect you, you have been very helpful when I have emailed you in the past and I thank you for it . I have a set of 33118's and they sound great to my ears . I have also had a chance to use a set of 1084's and they also sound great to my ears . But these transformers can handle a 20 to 25hrz signal at +26db the core in them is also larger than the core in the output transformers in my 33118's

Hi

I'm at home at the moment and miles from my files so I have to try to recall 30 years ago when the 33118 was current. There were a whole bunch of BBC destined modules back then, some with internal transformers like the 33114 and others with external transformers like the 33135.

To be honest, I can't recall, without checking my data, which configuration the 33118 is but the BBC hated the 440 amplifier that everyone tries to replace 640's with because the very "basic" input transistor configuration has poor overload characteristics. So your 33118 either has a 512 discrete output stage or a 640... both having true differential input stages.

If the module used an external transformer like the 33135, it was designed to work with the BBC spec'd T1801 transformer that was not used on any other console type other than those destined for the BBC.

It's grand that the transformer can hit those levels but they aren't the only transformers in the world that can do that... nor, I notice, do you mention the THD generated at those frequencies and levels which, I can assure you, are going to be in percents... not fractions of percents.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics, and all that!

And, in the real world, who really cares if it can hit +26dBu at 20Hz? Do you have any other piece of equipment in your signal path that could handle that?

The thing that griped me in this thread was the subject line... they are not Neve transformers... they are transformers by Altran that you used with your Neve modules.

A small point and nobody at Neve seems to give a rat's ass about it but I have this odd brand loyalty after working there for over 14 years and hate seeing the word banded about so.

I'm glad that you are happy with the transformers...

[ROCK777]

Just to clarify I wired these to my consoles direct outs not my Neve 33118's . I can send you inside shots of the 33118's if you want they have no ic's . Thanks for being understanding, I don't like getting attacked by barish or anyone because I think that these transformers sound great. I meant Neve style output transformers. I would like to see what you think of them with the level of your expertise you should really be able to tell if they sound close to the originals. Would you like to test one for shits a giggles I would like to know what you think of them. " Please define Neve sound" Ok I hear a ringing that I think comes from the input transformer that seems to create a mid spike and/or well out above 30khz that coupled with harmonic distortion that creates a kind of sweetened highs also I hear a clean lowend maybe because of a minimal phase Shift down low in the frequency spectrum which sounds like a huge lowend but I think the output transformer is responsible for alot of that along with the output transformer not saturating until + 26 to +27 db and I think the inductors in the eq's have a smoothing effect on the signal that is passed through them. So all in all a very complex sound to replicate but I think the transformers input and output & the inductors have alot to do with it. The core size and type of Steel and the copper windings also have alot to do with the transformers sound.

[foldback]

Audio transformers have a secret. As you move from 30hz down to 20hz distortion increases very rapidly.

It's easy to play games with specs, we all know that but the difference between 30hz and 20hz is huge with regards to level and distortion in audio transformers.

Jensen has been pretty good about their specs, they typically state their output level for a given distortion level at 20hz which is very demanding for a transformer.

I've seen some high output level API specs given at 30hz. Don't get me wrong here, I love API gadgets but 1% distortion at 30hz tells you nothing about what will be happening at 20hz because as the frequency goes down the distortion will go up A LOT.

Why does all this matter? If you truely have a 20hz signal at +20 or higher feeding an audio transformer it will be distorted. When the core of the transformer saturates it begins to act less like a transformer and more like a load to whatever is feeding the primary. The 20hz distortion mucks up all the frequencies above (harmonic distortion).

Back in the early 90's I worked on a project called "voiced magnetics". We spent several weeks building precision audio transformers to be used as tone shaping devices and came up with many interesting products. The research died a miserable death though because when we were able to truely isolate each sample and match the gain to identical levels during critical A-B listening analysis (double blind), every one of the transformer products sounded worse than the dry sound that fed it. Usually the worse sound came in the form of a "wooly" kind of character. The critical thing was getting the levels matched to be identical. The other thing we discovered was that when two sounds were compared, if one was louder everyone picked it as sounding better.

I love transformers. I've built a lot of them and have a good friend who builds millions of them. The number one best feature about a transformer is its ability to completely isolate one circuit from another. The second best feature is the common mode rejection which cannot be touched easily by semiconductors without extreme parts matching.

I see a lot of posts on GS about transformers having a sound. After working with audio transformers in electronic applications for 25 years I can tell you that transformers react with other components in the circuit they're attached to and that's a major part of what affects a tonal shift, the interaction of the components. Transformers are coils of wire and share a lot of design characteristics with devices you might have heard of in tone control cirucuits, inductors.

If you're hearing a tone change by inserting a transformer another possibility is the use of cheap materials to construct the transformer. Pure iron cores are not too good if you want decent low frequency response and good level, this led me to use laminations with 80% nickel to minimize distortion.

If you just stick a transformer in a circuit without compensating it you may have a harmonic ring up above what your ears can hear. The ringing can affect the tone of frequencies down in the audible range. You might even like the net effect of such a thing but you may have electronics that are screaming at 50K and you can't hear it (but a frequency counter can). I've seen high frequency oscillations do destructive things, kind of like having your car in park with the gas pedal held to the floor. You're not going anywhere so you don't have to worry about a crash, but how long will the motor last.

Best of luck.

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

I just recently purchased new Neve style output transformers from Steven Smith at Altran. I wired them up to some of my preamps and I am blown away. I also wired one up to one of consoles direct outs and these transformers have that Neve sound and they can take a 20 to 25hrz signal to + 26 db . They are really inexpensive and sound incredible. I have a set of Neve 33118's and with these transformers now my console preamps/eq's sound as good as my Neves. This is no B.S. Try them for yourself. I plan on purchasing more to finish wiring every direct out of my console. Steven Smith is a really cool person to deal with, A+. For me this is a breakthrough. It has taken my console to the next level. As always test with Your ears and you be the judge. But for me I am extremely pleased with them.

What preamps? What console?

how would changing or modding the output stage affect the sonic performance of EQs?

huh?

[ROCK777]

If you wire up a transformer to any mic preamp/eq you will change the sound and it will be noticable. Transformers with steel core laminations will somtimes smooth out an EQ's highs or will add a color to the eq that wasen't there before, or the mic pre/eq will pass a cleaner lowend or more colored/saturated lowend . But the Sonic preformance will change for better or worse depending what the listener is trying to achieve. I wired them to a Sound Workshop 1280b direct outs and some preamps I am building.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

Just to clarify I wired these to my consoles direct outs not my Neve 33118's . I can send you inside shots of the 33118's if you want they have no ic's . Thanks for being understanding, I don't like getting attacked by barish or anyone because I think that these transformers sound great. I meant Neve style output transformers. I would like to see what you think of them with the level of your expertise you should really be able to tell if they sound close to the originals. Would you like to test one for shits a giggles I would like to know what you think of them. " Please define "Neve" sound". Ok I hear a ringing that I think comes from the input transformer that seems to create a mid spike and/or well out above 30khz that coupled with harmonic distortion a kind of dark rolled off highs also I hear a clean lowend maybe because of a minimal phase Shift down low in the frequency spectrum which sounds like a huge lowend but I think the output transformer is responsible for alot of that along with the output transformer not saturating until + 26 to +27 db and I think the inductors in the eq's have a smothing effect on the signal that is passed through them. So all in all a very complex sound to replicate but I think the transformers input and output & the inductors have alot to do with it. The core size and type of Steel and the copper windings also have alot to do with the transformers sound.

Hi

Thanks for the offer but I wouldn't really have time to play with them. I'm designing new stuff for 2007.

Your 33118 may have no IC's but may have horrid BA437's in the EQ sections which don't have any input bias decoupling and have lower headroom than a 438 or 638 and will crap out probably before your output transformer does. This is one area when I think the audiophile anti-IC snobbery is misplaced.

Also, there's a lot more to using a transformer than just slapping it on your direct outs... you may need a damping resistor on the primary, you may need a larger coupling capacitor in the output stage, the output stage may have issues with the nature of the load, the output transformer may have issues with its load... especially the reactive side of that load. You don't just fit a component into a circuit without considerable investigation into the circuit parameters.

I built a circuit at Neve years ago that had to deliver over +30dBu across the audio band, and used a Sowter transformer for that project. The output impedance had to be padded to 600 ohms and it had to drive a 600 ohm load. So, in order to achieve a >+26dBu output across the load, the transformer was pushing out over +32dBu. EMI modules I've seen that drove output transformers the size of a can of beans ran on +/-25v and could swing enormous signals.

[Barish]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

" Please define "Neve" sound". Ok I hear a ringing that I think comes from the input transformer that seems to create a mid spike and/or well out above 30khz that coupled with harmonic distortion a kind sweetened highs also I hear a clean lowend maybe because of a minimal phase Shift down low in the frequency spectrum which sounds like a huge lowend but I think the output transformer is responsible for alot of that along with the output transformer not saturating until + 26 to +27 db and I think the inductors in the eq's have a smothing effect on the signal that is passed through them.

I suggest you initially start practising the basic use of commas and dots ( I mean the "," and "." signs) in your text.

This sounded like one of those jitterless teflon space technology tetrahedral crystal whatnot interconnect cable adverts in those audiophile magazines. Means bugger all in terms of explaining drop in compatibility of a transformer in ANY circuit that exists, yet somehow manages to give an AWESOME (???) result.

Salabim salabim, sim salabim.

It was a pishy wee Bearringer, but hold your breath, abra cadabra, ta daammmm! now it's a Neve!!!! For 20 bucks. Nice, eh?

So you claim you are not the manufacturer of those transformers, but rather just an ordinary user who bumped into them and loved them so much so that you came over here to tell us about it, but somehow you know every fricking detail of those transformers, how much time invested in the reverse engineering of their originals and all those details, and interestingly you keep avoiding the issue about the modifications that have to be done to the circuit before the transformer stage in order to make the new tranmsformer work with it flawlessly, despite my efforts, and kindly legendary Mr Tanner's, to correct your completely misleading presentation and wording. And you think you can come off the surface by picking a line out of my words to prove how right you are, while totally ignoring the rest.

You are intentionally trying to mislead people by hiding vital information for commercial concerns. And even though you are cautioned about it, you still insist to do so and expect us to believe your genuinity. Huh?

If you said "Altran transformers sound incredible" I'd have no objection to it.

But juxtaposing it to the magic word "Neve" in order to give them some sort of credibility is just lame.

And I am sick and tired of seeing the same lame tactics becoming urban legends and surpassing their originals in time.

And then guys like you try in vain to describe a sound with words.

Useless.


A sound is heard, not written. (Yeah, pick this one and write another post around it to say how right you are as well, won't you?)


But remember to add this one as well:


If it's not a Neve, then it ain't a Neve sound.


I mean, look at this:

So this is a way for people that live in the USA to get a transformer made in the USA for less money that is a very good representation of an original Neve transformer and there is nothing wrong with that.Not everyone can afford a vintage Neve mic pe/eq.

What's next in a couple of years?

"Altan trannies sound more Neve than Neve"?


Lame.

B.

[Stitch333]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

If you wire up a transformer to any mic preamp/eq you will change the sound and it will be noticable. Transformers with steel core laminations will somtimes smooth out an EQ's highs or will add a color to the eq that wasen't there before, or the mic pre/eq will pass a cleaner lowend or more colored/saturated lowend . But the Sonic preformance will change for better or worse depending what the listener is trying to achieve. I wired them to a Sound Workshop 1280b direct outs and some preamps I am building.

If what you are saying is true about how the sonics are changed, wouldn't you have to affect the input stage as opposed to (or in conjunction with) the output stage in order for you to actually change the performance of the EQ? How will an EQ pass a cleaner low end if you aren't dealing with what signal is run into it? Unless, of course, the EQ sounds ridiculously good by itself and color is all you are looking for.
Dont get me wrong, Im into modding gear: recapping, swapping opamps and tubes, I even dable in making gear (Im working on a 8x2 passive mixer/speaker selector now) but there has to be a logical reason as to why you are changing part A with part B or adding a part C that wasn't there before and in the case of putting a transformer on a direct out, it would seem the only reason would be to create a balenced output stage. It would seem if you want a sweeter/cleaner output signal, replacing all the caps with high quality/high performace electrolytics would be the first place to start, especially with a board thats 15 years + old...right? Anyone?

[ROCK777]

Yes barish your great thanks for all your help. Go play somewhere else . You are the same Troll that started all that crap with Jakob at Prodigy Professional about the SSL buss compressor clone. Mr Geoff T I thank you for chiming in you are always helpful and I enjoy talking to you .

[ROCK777]

Stitch333 the caps have been changed and yes I was looking to add some color to the micpre/eq's and to create a balanced output stage. thanks

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Stitch333

... in the case of putting a transformer on a direct out, it would seem the only reason would be to create a balenced output stage...

Hard to say. Check out this mic transformer shootout:

http://cinemag.biz/pearlman/Shootout...24bit48kHz.aif

It compares a vintage U47 xformer with a new Cinemag one -- as it happens, the transformer Dave Pearlman uses in his TM1 (I own 2 of them). There are 2 different tests - an acoustic guitar and a vocal. You may disagree, but I find the guitar recordings to be quite different, and I like the the U47 transformer a lot better. If an output transformer can do that same kind of thing, I'm interested.

[ROCK777]

Finally, that is all I am trying to say If you want some of the N color wire these to your mic preamp/eq's or stand alone eq's or direct outs of a console or stereo buss and enjoy. What is wrong with that . I have found that it makes a huge difference sonicly and want others to know about it.

[Barish]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

Finally, that is all I am trying to say If you want some of the N color wire these to your mic preamp/eq's or stand alone eq's or direct outs of a console or stereo buss and enjoy. What is wrong with that . I have found that it makes a huge difference sonicly and want others to know about it.

You are some character I tell ya. Reflex bag behaviour. No matter how hard one punches, it still it comes back to the same upright position.


Surreal.


"F*ck all that Neve gear. Buy one of these trannies and tap it at the end of your Behringer and there you go. You have a Neve mic pre. Enjoy."


You are a joke, man.



I'm laughing so hard, I'll leave you alone.



Ahahhahha.



God....


That's it, I've had enough for tonight



If anyone from here believes in that crap, so be it. They deserve it.



Ahahhahha.


B.

[not_so_new]

I am with ya Barish.. *sigh*

Probably a thread that needs locked.... sooner than later. Pretty crazy.

[ROCK777]

I did not say you could wire these transformers to a Behringer and have a Neve. Please do not put words into my mouth. What part of Go Away TROLL do you not understand .

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by ROCK777

I did not say you could wire these transformers to a Behringer and have a Neve. You are a moron, my friend. Please do not put words into my mouth.

Hey ROCK. Look man, I am not fighting with you or anything so take this as a positive because I am not calling you out.

Relax a little.

You are really aggressive in your views. It's cool to have an opinion but you are taking it over the line a bit don't you think.

I think folks are skeptical of your take is all, if you want to shut us all up just post some clips. I would like to check them out for sure.



It's all good man.