Silly question about microphones "in phase"

[beau_mckee]

Hey slutz,

This is probably going to get me laughed at, but ive just done a bunch of recordings using 2 mics at once. Ive done 2 mic drum overheads and ive also used 2 mics on a seperate track for the guitar cab. What are the benefits of having these in phase, or in sync, or perfectly aligned? I find it a massive pain in the bum to align everything through protools, i dont know how to use nudge yet.

When i flip the phase it sounds nearly exactly the same, its not cancelling anything out, but is it worth fixing?

Beau

[Blast9]

Well, if the 2 mics are in phase, when you flip one of them the signal should drop considerably in mono, or the stereo image will go weird in yr fones.

What you should worry about is if the gtr mics are picking up the drums or vice-versa,if you recorded them at the same time.

You could hear some undesireable comb filtering or phasiness with both signals played back together.

:::: use your ears, though. If it already sounds good no problemo ::::

Advantages --- It sounds good and solid.

[beau_mckee]

thanks for that, i tracked them seperately, so yeah they sound good. If nudge was an easy tool, i will try it. do you know how to use nudge in tools?

[Thumper]

RTFM.

[Blast9]

What does RTFM mean? --- "refer to f'n manual?"

[macr0w]

Originally Posted by Blast9

What does RTFM mean? --- "refer to f'n manual?"

Close enough, Read The F'ing Manual.

[DCtoDaylight]

I thought it was "Read the Fine Manual!"

[Mike Caffrey]

If you're not hearing a difference, then either you don't know what to listen for of you've managed to be exactly 90 degress out of phase, which is unlikely.

Is there a snare mic, or just two overheads?

To train your ear, start by trying to find the out of phase sound - where the low end disappears. Then flip back and forth while listening to mids and highs etc.

[Musiclab]

Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey

If you're not hearing a difference, then either you don't know what to listen for of you've managed to be exactly 90 degress out of phase, which is unlikely.

Is there a snare mic, or just two overheads?

To train your ear, start by trying to find the out of phase sound - where the low end disappears. Then flip back and forth while listening to mids and highs etc.

probably he's not listening in mono.

[Mike Caffrey]

Listening in mono is not necessary. I always check phase in stereo.

Not for any particular reason, just when I'm focused on listening for phase I don't think about anything else, like listening in mono.

[DeathMonkey]

I too am a phase noob, to a certain degree, although I try to make sure I am using "proper" miking techniques to avoid phase (I try to look at the "rule of three" guidelines when I can). But I will say that if I record stuff with two mics, I'll try to make sure they aren't messing around with each other. There are a bunch of ways to do that - using nudge (I just zoom in to sample size-ish and move stuff around until it sounds good, cuz I'm a dipstick), summing to mono, flip the phase and see if it makes a difference, pan em together, pan em apart back and forth... once you can hear what you are looking for, you will be able to check phase quickly, using a few quick methods (whatever works for you) like second nature -those are words direct from a well-known producer.


Some people get really anal about it, I worry about it because I am never sure if I am getting it. So I feel ya.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by DeathMonkey

Some people get really anal about it, I worry about it because I am never sure if I am getting it. So I feel ya.

Yes. Two mics on a guitar cab -- hit phase on one, even them out so they cancel a LOT, and then un-phase the one and then blend to taste. My 2c.

Oh, yeah -- this may take ten minutes of play, zoom, move mic. Sometimes longer. IMO it's very worth it.

"don't play the first thing that comes into your head: play the second." -

Three posts down, there is a quick example (stereo file) -- one side is Neve, one side is Millennia, with different mics (& phase matched). Set them to mono and put one out of phase -- if they're mono (one side) or both up the middle, the additive level will decrease a lot.

Pictures of Mic'ed up GUITAR CABS

Mic'd much like this picture (NOT my amp!). -- first pic on page.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Blast9

:::: use your ears, though. If it already sounds good no problemo ::::

unless your ears don't know how to hear the things you need to be hearing.

phase is not unlike compression, where guys will often be doing quite a bad job of it and not hearing what's going on.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[poncival]

Originally Posted by beau_mckee

Hey slutz,
I find it a massive pain in the bum to align everything through protools, i dont know how to use nudge yet.

When i flip the phase it sounds nearly exactly the same, its not cancelling anything out, but is it worth fixing?

Beau

Fix it in the mix- I mean MICS!

make sure the diaphragms (not the grilles) are lined up toogether, the same distance from the source. Make sure the mics are at least 3 times as far from anything else that could reflect sound back into them (i.e. a Wall, the drummer, etc)

Some people say that aligning everything in pro tools is the devil, I am not sure about that but I notice I don't have to do it too much if I make sure everything sounds good on the way into Pro Tools. If you're just learning, you may have better luck using the "1 mic" method on a guitar amp, I am a big believer in "less is more" in that regard. For overheads, use an "X-Y" pattern and you shouldn't really have any phase issues, assuming all your cables are wired correctly and your mic pre's are working right.

I ran into a guy a few years ago that had a nice x/y pattern with neumann KM-84's aimed directly at the ceiling above his drum set in his crappy sounding living room with tile floors and he couldn't figure out why the cymbals sounded so far away and lacking definition and separation.

Don't be that guy

[beau_mckee]

thanks guys, great advice and im now messing with phase issues :-)

[rewt_]

for what it's worth, when someone chimes in with the "3 to 1 rule," take it with a grain of salt. it has never come close to working for me. my advice would be to intentionally record something out of phase to learn what to listen for. put one mic on a distorted guitar amp, and then hold another in front it of. record for a few seconds in each position before moving it to another position. pan them both center.

with drums it can be less obvious, just sounding thin or weak without the crazy filter effect. once you can identify it on guitar, try it on one drum. when you get that, try it on the kit. i think that you'll find that you second guess yourself all of the time for a while, and you will be looking for more of a "this sounds pretty phase coherent" type of thing than "ok, these two mics are perfectly in phase" type of thing. as you continue to record, you will be more conscious of it and like anything else, you'll get better at it.

it's great when you build some experience and then you can hear things like phase problems and awkward compression that you just heard people talk about before. it really turns into "how did i NOT hear that?!" good luck.

[poncival]

Originally Posted by rewt_

for what it's worth, when someone chimes in with the "3 to 1 rule," take it with a grain of salt. it has never come close to working for me.

Yeah, not to say that if something is 4 times as far away, you won't still have phase anomolies happening, just that generally speaking, in terms of a drum kit for example, that if your rack tom mic is 20 times as close to the rack tom as it is to the floor tom, and vice versa, then you probably won't have a lot of phase problems between the two tom mics... However, if you have 2 mics on the same guitar amp, then the 3 to 1 rule doesn't really apply because no matter what the difference is in the distance, there will be some comb filtering.