Ideal monitors/configuration for a small room.

[WATYF]

Hi there. I've got a decent little project studio that I've been running for a while. I've been spending most of my upgrades on things like mics and plug-ins, but I've always known that my monitors were a weak link that would need to be addressed eventually. I think now is that time.

Currently I use M-Audio Studiophile SP-8B's with the SP-8S sub. I have a small room (unfortunately) and instead of trying to treat it for optimum acoustics (which I don't know is even possible), I just went ahead and dampened it. So most of the walls are covered. The room is only about 12 X 9. Here's a very rough (not to-scale) representation of the room and where the desk/monitors are placed within it.



...and here's a pic from the "driver's" vantage point.




So anyway... I need something that delivers more clarity. My biggest problem is that I'll finish a mix and then take it to my car or a stereo or a laptop and something will sound completely different. I heard from a friend that the Blue Sky monitors were very good at giving a very balanced mix (that sounds the same everywhere), and a few people here said the same thing, so I was looking at those.

I was thinking about getting the SAT 5's with the 8" Sub, but I don't know if that's ideal. Should I be forgetting the sub and just getting the larger woofers (the SAT 6.5)? Is there another line of monitors that would suit my room better (Tannoy, Dynaudio, Genelec)? Btw, my price range is <$1500 for a pair.

Keep in mind, I'm not looking for "best bang for fewest bucks". I already have that. The Studiophiles are definintely "decent" (especially considering I only paid 300 for the pair and 250 for the sub). I'm looking to step up to "very good" or even "great". So if the Blue Sky's don't fit that description, then feel free to point me to something that does.

Thanks for any help.


WATYF

[Kiwiburger]

Looking at that layout picture, you might be blaming your speakers when it's their position in the room that isn't helping. For the sake of stereo balance, symmetry is a good thing.

Getting the speakers further out into the room, possibly closer together might help. Aiming for about 1/3 into the room from all perspectives (front to back, side to side and floor to ceiling) is a useful guide. The reason for this is that speakers too close to a wall tend to excite the room nodes, and in a small room with parallel walls, the room nodes are going to be a problem. Exactly halfway into the room isn't good either, not that's its possible with stereo speakers. So that leaves 1/3 into the room a good starting point.

Sound doesn't care about gravity or spacial orientation. So anything that applies to walls also applies to floor and ceiling - consider the symmetry and distances from surfaces.

Seriously - try moving your speakers around the room and listen to the huge differences this makes.

In a small room, serious damping is probably your safest bet, and rely on true nearfield monitoring. You might need to study up on bass trapping, because your comments suggest you may have killed your high end reflections, but might have a muddy room sound if you haven't killed the low end.

Every speaker & room combination will sound different. You can't expect these to sound the same as your car, stereo, or laptop speakers. You will be disappointed in any good set of monitors if you are chasing this illusion.

The trick is to realise that the perfect, flat response, monitoring system doesn't exist, and that the goal is to create mixes that work well on the majority of the wildly differing systems out there. You need to listen "through" your monitors, not "to" your monitors, if that makes sense. If you get familiar with your speakers and room, with successful, well-mastered commercial mixes, you will know what a good mix should sound like - in that room, with your speakers. Then, your goal is to mix so your own mixes sound the same. Not "better", because that will mean you are overcompensating and actually making things worse.

As an educational tool, I think www.harbal.com is worth a look.

I'm in a similar situation of needing to replace some inferior speakers (Behringer Truths). I've tolerated them for a long time because they actually work, and you can get a lot worse. But for me, the main reason i'm replacing them now is because I can't stand the hum (both acoustic from the transformers, and electrical from the speaker). I've moved my PC outside the room, and now the room is so quiet, the amp hum is bugging me. I actually suspect that a lot of active monitors would bug me too - I really don't think it's smart to have the power amps mounted inside the speakers, bringing them so close to your ears, because AC powered amps hum.

I know the theories of why actives should be good - short speaker wires, tuned biamp electronic crossovers, blah, blah, woof, woof. But if the amps hum, there is no advantage. I find a good hifi amp, like my Linn, doesn't hum unless you put your ear up to, and you can place it well away from your ears.

So my next monitors will be passive. Very probably Dynaudio, because I can't get Adams in my country. I'm not impressed with the specs on the Tannoy Reveals. The Behringers, despite their failings, were surprisingly OK, and I don't want to go backwards. (I had to reject two Behringer speakers to get a good pair - so I don't recommend them to anyone, unless you can test them for yourself).

[WATYF]

OK. So you're saying that I should try moving the speakers further away from the wall, and moving the desk further right (into the center of the wall)? Is that correct?

I have a feeling that you're right about the bass response. After dampening, I did notice that the high end calmed down, but the lower mids got a little worse. Where would you suggest I look for ideas on controlling the low end?

That said, would you say that moving to the Blue Sky's would still be an improvement? Or should I just stick to optimizing the position of my current setup?


(btw, that link you provided was a dead link)


WATYF

[WATYF]

OK... I've found a couple other brands that were suggested here... so here's my list of all the brands I'm considering. Any thoughts on which would suit this room the best? Some of them are just out of my price range, but I might consider trying to swing them if they're that much better.

Dynaudio BM5A Actives ($1000)

Dynaudio BM6A Actives ($1600)

Adam A7 ($1000)

Adam P11 ($2000)

Event Studio Precision 8 ASP8 ($1300)

Blue Sky ProDesk SAT 5 MK II with SUB 8 ($800 for pair, $400 for sub)

Blue Sky ProDesk SAT 6.5 MK II ($1200 for pair)



WATYF

[Pascal Sijen]

Originally Posted by WATYF

Blue Sky ProDesk SAT 6.5 MK II with SUB 8 ($1200 for pair, $400 for sub)

Hello WATYF:

I just wanted to make sure that you are aware that the SAT 6.5 MK II isn't fully compatible with the SUB 8. This is because the SUB 8 / SUB 8 Universal, do not include the High Pass Filters (12 per octave / 80Hz) that are required to get proper summation between the SAT 6.5 / SUB 8. The SAT 5 MK II, includes this HP filter internally and therefore is a perfect match to the SUB 8 / SUB 8 Universal.

Looking at your application, I would say ProDesk, using the SAT 5 MK II / SUB 8 Universal, would be ideal.

Please feel free to e-mail me directly, if you have any questions. pascal@abluesky.com

Cheers!

[WATYF]

cool man... thanks for the info.


WATYF

[WATYF]

Any other thoughts?

I've heard a lot of great things about the Dynaudio BM6A's, but are they overkill for a room this size? And will I get enough bass definition from them without a sub?


WATYF

[uncle duncan]

Tascam VL-X5. Why not keep what you have and add one or two more pairs for A/B comparisons. A lot of mix guys have one pair for getting bass/kick levels set. Then they go to small speakers for the rest of the mix.
Regarding the noise level in the studio, one theory is, if there is low level white noise going on, it forces you to make better mixes because you need to make every instrument audible over the white noise, where if you were mixing in a super-quiet environment you'd hear every little detail. Then put that mix from the super-quiet environment in a car and all the details are gone because of the ambient noise in the car.

[NoEgo]

Personally I think the biggest issue you have is the room.
The monitors you have are quite capable of giving you a good mix, its just when you bring it to a different environment that the sound changes. You are mixing in that room.
Rear reflections from the speakers are just as important and in the room itself.

There is a company called Primacoustic that makes packages small and large depending on your room cavity dimensions.
From what I see in the pic and it's only a pic of your mixing position, the back wall would not be so friendly, especially if those monitors have a bass port on the rear rather than in front. Secondly you have all kinds of furniture the desk hutch, the monitor, etc . that creates all kinds of reflections. The monitor on the left can't possibly give the same path of sound as the one on the right (symmetry) because the one on the right has all kinds of stuff to reflect on as well. The monitor doesn't know to get around your hard drive, your desk shelf, and everything that is on the right side. As a result you will have a different sound from that monitor than the one on the left...make sense??
I bought a package from Primacoustic to do the front wall and sides of my room and also scatter foam for the rear of the wall so that they would break up and refract standing waves which can give you false readings. My recording improved immensely after I did this. You still want to leave hard surface of course but a mixture of the two is the best solution. Both your monitors also need to have the same path for sound waves to be symmetric. I don't see it there.

You are probably eq'ing things in your program mix to accommodate your room. Then when you playback in other areas, it's not flat your mix, it's been tampered with.

Just my two cents. From what I see in the pick.

Here is a messy session, but gives you an idea of what the Prima thing does.

[DSD_Mastering]

Originally Posted by WATYF

Dynaudio BM5A Actives ($1000)
Dynaudio BM6A Actives ($1600)
Adam A7 ($1000)
Adam P11 ($2000)
Event Studio Precision 8 ASP8 ($1300)
Blue Sky ProDesk SAT 5 MK II with SUB 8 ($800 for pair, $400 for sub)
Blue Sky ProDesk SAT 6.5 MK II ($1200 for pair)
WATYF

I think you should also include the Focal Solo6 Be in with the mix. They are a cut above the rest.

But first, I think you should play around with your positioning and acoustics. You'll get much better results than putting money into new speakers.

Regards,
Bruce