i had 10 minutes with a senheiser 600 headphone

[Marshall Simmons]

I thought i should share with you my brief, yet unusual experience with the senheiser 600 headphones.

My brother asked for a decent set of headphones for christmas, so i planned on getting him the basic grado phones. The high end shop that i went to also had the 600's, so while i was auditioning the grado's, i decided to give them a whirl so see what all the hype was.

I listened to natalie merchant- tigerlilly, track one.

The grado's sound nice, good amount of bass and the imaging was where i expected it to be... Everything sounded the way i expected it to, although the reverb seemed a bit pronounced.

The 600's were well-----i have a hard time describing it. I've never head the track sound like this. It didn't sound like a set of speakers. The rhythm guitar seemed like it was in another world, yet was close, the verb on natalie's vocie almost dissapeared.
It was a good expereince, and i ended up liking the sound i guess, but it bothers me that it dosen't sound like what i've heard on every other speaker and headphone (i use it alot for my refrence cd when trying out difference speakers and whatnot)


I was planning on getting a set of ultrasone's (the high end one.... gotta talk to fletcher about weather the 650's or the 2000's are the best in the ultrasone line) But i'm wondering if there is something in the 600s that would make my mixes better. If i'm hearing things i've never heard before on any other system, then perhaps thats a good thing. However, at te same time, the mix sounded totally differnt, so maybe if i do mixes on those phones, they won't translate AT ALL to any other system


It was a very interesting and unnerving experience.

I hope my brother likes the grado's

Marshall

[littledog]

I'm just not sure you can really plan to mix on any headphone system, although I admit my experience does not include some of the super-high end ones.

They can help you mix, for sure, because they reveal details that are tough to hear on even the best speakers. But the listening experience of headphones vs. speakers is always going to be different.

You don't hear just the right speaker in the right ear and the left speaker in the left ear. Both ears get more of the corresponding speaker, but they also get some of the other one. Plus you get reflections off of the side walls which are an important contribution to the sound, and which contribute to the translatability of the mix to other rooms. But with headphones, the left ear hears ONLY the left channel, and the right ear only the right - and room reflections are eliminated. One might wonder if eliminating room reflections might not be a good thing, but that's just not true. Since the average listener is not going to be in an anechoic chamber, mixing in an anechoic chamber has been proven to be a disastrous idea.

Because of the dual-mono vs. true stereo aspect of headphones versus speakers, certain elements just don't translate that well when an exclusively headphone mixed piece is played on speakers. This is especially true of panning and reverb issues.

But to reiterate, I do find headphones very useful as one part of the mixing process. And by the way,I'm using the Sennheiser 580's, which i love.

[Jules]

I NEVER check on headphones when mixing...

But I do own a set of 580's

(I only bought them for the studio cause 2 freelancers that come in have them, and I figured we would have a pair if they forgot theirs and I wanted to get headphones assistants could wear and still hear the phone or door bell while editing)

ANYhow...

I really have to start at least doing a few passes with headphones on! I am mixing today Xmas eve (only till about 4pm)

So I will give em a go!

Dont think they make 580's any more do they? 600 have taken over right?

[Schnert]

I'd never do a mix on any headphone, but mixes never leave me without being checked in the HD600's first. Nothing escapes those things, every tiny little edit or click or fart is revealed. Besides, they're so comfortable it feels weird to tak'em off

[nativeaudio]

Originally posted by Jules
Dont think they make 580's any more do they? 600 have taken over right?

..and now Sennheiser probably will let the new 650 replace the 600, I guess...

[Ruphus]

I´m no old hand, but what I learned for certain is that heaphones absolutely don´t fit for mixing.
As Littledog mentioned already they are good for editing or checking out details like clicks and such, but when you mix on them panning and especially lows will be wrong when listening through speakers.

I believe one of the reasons for amateurs boomy mixes and unnatural panning is based on mix work through cans. Most in respect of neighbourhood can´t engage their monitors all the time and that´s how it comes.
One of the reasons why I´m lusting for a place where I could listen through speakers even during the night at best.

Ruphus

[Brad Blackwood]

Nah, they still make the 580, 590, 600 & 650...

http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser...se_hifisystems

[Tousana]

I own a pair of 600's for home use but often bring them into the studio as another reference method. I use them to check balance and really get inside of the mix, although I don't think I would try mixing on them as my sole source. They are fantastic phones for the money and every time I listen to them I am not sorry that I spent the money to buy them. Just my 2 cents.

[miziq]

Hi all

I own akg k1000 headphones and Hajdinjak labs highend amp for them. If anyone want`s to achive closest feeling of the speakers check them out. THose are one of the best highend phones on the market. But u have to hear them to belive me and amp really have to to matche them .

They are put up against 10.000 $ speakers. IMHO they are that good and i feel that they need tube amp to drive them.

Btw for all headphones madnes check www.head-fi.com


your



miziq

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Jules
I NEVER check on headphones when mixing...

I used to all the time with whatever the studio had laying around just to double check my panning, and left/right balance. Since I got my hands on the Owl speaker system, I haven't had the need.

Anytime I use A3D, I have to check them (I usually put them on when creating the effect) with a decent set of cans.

[kevinc]

I use headphones all the time for mixing unfortunately.
The thing that really sucks is that due to my years of playing my guitar too long my hearings slightly off in one ear I think.
Unless it`s the head phones themselves I`m hearing things that are panned perfectly center a bit to the right.
It gets real frustrating when your trying to think of cool ways to pan stuff and the kick and the bass sound like they`re in the wrong place.
The one thing that they are useful for is getting some initial compressor, eq and mix settings before I get down to my studio to refine them.

The only reason I use them at all is my studio is 45 minutes away and after painting all day (day jobs SUCK!!!) it`s hard to find the motivation to travel.

Hopefully I can turn fully pro as an audio engineer soon and throw out the cans for good.
Meanwhile the HD 600 sound like the best bet.

Kevin

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by kevinc
Unless it`s the head phones themselves I`m hearing things that are panned perfectly center a bit to the right.

What happens when you flip the 'phones around?

[kevinc]

Doh!!!
I think that`s the second or third time you caught me being stupid around here Brad.
You guys are too smart for your own good. (or maybe I`m too dumb)
I`ll try that before I blame my hearing.

Thanks Brad
Kevin

[Marshall Simmons]

Happy holidays all!


I love when i post a rambling message and the next day it has exploded.... It really does feel like a large extended family here. I wish all of you the best during the holidays and i hope that buisness is much betta next year.



Getting down to the subject at hand. I wasnt really planning on mixing with the senn's or the ultrasones, I just wanted another refrence to listen to at some point.

Now here is a thought.... what about tracking through headphones. The majority of you all have mentioned that you hear more detail through the phones then the speakers... so wouldn't that aid in tracking? Again, not thinking COMPLETELY throough headphones, but alot of back and fourth checking?


Any word on the ultrasones? I'm kinda shocked at the 600--they didn't feel right listning wise. Do the ultrasones have the same imaging weirdness?


Marshall

[strauss]

Has anyone tried the crossfeeding technique to get a more realistic hearing experience with headphones?

[nativeaudio]

Originally posted by Marshall Simmon
I'm kinda shocked at the 600--they didn't feel right listning wise. Marshall

Many headphones need a lot of 'burning' before they achieve 'their sound'. I recently bought Beyerdynamics DT880 and Sennheiser HD650, and while the 880 sounded OK out of the box, the 650 did not. Some people claim that 600/650 are the best headphones around (within that price range), and get disappointed.... I believe they need at least to be running for 24 hours before they loosen up, and some people insist that they keep improving up to 100+ hours....

[strauss]

nativeaudio...let me know how those compare once you have broke 'm in. I heard they need about 76 hours to properly break in.

I still haven't decided between the 880 and HD600/650. I Went to a store last week, which had both, to check them out but their listening system was really bad...
They had about 25+ headphones playing at the same time so I could clearly hear the sound coming out of all the other phones when testing these, especally on the HD600's which are more open. All the phones actually didn't sound too well on their system. The saleguy told me it's because the phones hadn't broke in, but I took my HD25's with me and it also sound't bad even compared to plugging it in my MP3 player!
When asking if I could test the phones with a nice headphone amp, which they DID have, they salesguy told me it was too of a much hassle to connect it to a cd player !

[Marshall Simmons]

Thats what i would have thought too if they were new headphones. But these were in store demo's that had been used pretty often.... They were played through a grado headphone amp



I'm jot saying its bad... Maybe if someone has the headphones, grab the nataliemerchant tigerlily cd, and listen to the rhythm guitar on the first track...

Is it just me, or do they sound really weird on the right ear?

Marsh

[Marshall Simmons]

I think i'm gonna give em another go tomrrow...

Maybe i'll beable to get a good deal on em too..

[mpr3]

I find the HD600/DAC-1 combo essential for two things: checking for subtle digital clicks and pops, and checking to see if a microphone capsule is distorting.

While most high end monitors will reveal these problems, the 600s do so blatantly.

[Ari]

Hey everyone !!

I'm new here. I gonna love this place.

Yes, headphones like HD 600 and K1k makes us forget what is around...

Miziq mentioned Head-fi. I'm there for almost 2 years and I recommend everyone to go there. You gonna be surprised how far a headphone can go.

You can check Head-fi and Headphone.com for gear.

Miziq post is very truth.

Originally posted by miziq
Hi all and

I own akg k1000 headphones and Hajdinjak labs highend amp for them. If anyone want`s to achive closest feeling of the speakers check them out.

They are put up against 10.000 $ speakers. IMHO they are that good and i feel that they need tube amp to drive them.

Btw for all headphones madnes check www.head-fi.com

miziq

By the way, this place has HD 600 for a good price. Check differences between it and 650 than...dicide.

Best greetings from

Ari

Edit: Sorry for ma English writing. I'm working on that...

[Alpha world]

always have my 600's handy for spot checks by far my fav's next to the now defunct sony cd-999

g

[Ari]

There is another "HD 600". I'm wondering that it could be very useful for a lot of people here in GS. This is the Etymotic Research ER4.



It sounds at the same HD 600 level of quality. It is described like this at ETY's web site:

... "The ER-4 MicroPro™ earphones are the next best thing to live music, with noise isolation far surpassing that of active-noise-reduction earphones. The ER-4's require NO batteries, and can be plugged into any audio source. Their 20-25 dB of external noise exclusion allows you to hear the full dynamic range of recordings without having to play them at unnaturally high and unsafe levels. The earphones come in three styles: ER-4S, ER-4B, ER-4P." ...


Best

Ari

Edit: They are not lying. I have one.

[nativeaudio]

Originally posted by strauss
nativeaudio...let me know how those compare once you have broke 'm in. I heard they need about 76 hours to properly break in.

Hi,
The Sennheiser HD650's were really muddy the first few hours, but now I definitely like them - better than the Beyerdynamics DT880. I'd say the 800's are better for tracing possible digital clicks etc ., but the 880s definitely sound more 'headphoney' than the Sennheisers.

The Sennheisers represent the warmer, thicker, juicier colors better than the 880's. 880's have IMHO a slightly exaggerated high-end, 650s sound more like really good speakers. Not sure how many hours they have been 'on' yet, maybe 20-30, but if they get even better than this, I'm more than happy (well, I am already).

I'll for sure never put on my AKG 270s more (except for tracking).

Re. mixing on good headphones, I guess you could have the same problem as mixing on really good speakers; things sound pretty good without too much hassle, which could result in a mix that sounds brilliant at your place but not so brilliant elsewhere (in addition, mixing on headphones gives a wider stereo image than when working on speakers, and could really confuse you when it comes to bass levels). Having said that, I really like the bass in the Sennheisers - and even if you'll never mix on them, they're really good to have just to check how other records really sound - they give a very detailed 'sound image'.

[Ari]

Hey All !!

I'm skeptical about cables but... I use a Cardas Neutral Reference made specific for HD 600 (650?). The improvement is dramatic. Cables here

They even have Cardas Balanced Headphone Cable for use with some special high-end headphones amps here

Ari

[bjornson]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I use headphones constantly during tracking and mixing. I always have an identical set to the performer during tracking and when cutting vocals I spend a good amount of time tweeking the mix so the vocalist is really hearing what they want.
I'll never forget the time when I was the client cutting vocals for a commercial and all I heard was wierd reverb through my cans. I kept telling the engineer to check my mix, and he would say "oh it's fine". When I finally got him to come out and put phones on his noggin, he realized the HP box was out of phase/mono,
leaving no centered elements in my mix. After that experience I built a HP distro box where I always have a post amp split of all 8 mixes available all the time. When mixing, especially in a strange room, comparing a reference CD to my work on phones is invaluable, not for mix decisions, but to compare the results of those decisions to known references.
I've been in "mix rooms" that sounded so wierd that phones were a viable option as the main reference and the clients were very happy. (the studio owner wasn't)

[Yannick]

I have the HD580's for years now, and last month I bought the new HD650's. I let them burn in for about 12 H before listening to them.

I think they are great - better then the 580's and better then their HE70 electrostatics (connected to my DAC1 headphone amp that is).

I don't mix on them, but I do tracklaying and editing - or check a master.

If you want speakers that come quite close :\

www.link-audio.be

look at the K50's (or the B600 if you have the money ...)

Yannick

[strauss]

Originally posted by Yannick
I have the HD580's for years now, and last month I bought the new HD650's. I let them burn in for about 12 H before listening to them.
Yannick

Let me know what you think the differences are between the 580 and 650 once you broke em in.
I'm interested in the 650, but haven't found a decent store to demo them.