How do I find the right mixing engineer...

[Gdim]

Hi all,

I think this my second post here. I've been lurking for a while. I think I am addicted now! I am checking the board every day! Great board! I am learning a lot...

Here's my (my band's) problem/dilemma:

I am a guitar player for an alt-country band. We're recording our third CD in a really nice studio. We decided to use this particular facility based on the recommendation of a fellow musician who was subbing for our drummer for a while. He is the engineer, meaning he did the tracking of the band so far.

I pretty much play the main producer's role and I do all the editing of the material. I am not the sole producer of course since the lead singer and the bass player have to approve the ideas I put on the table. So far we have done drums, acoustic guitars, lead vocal, bass. We're currently editing the lead vocals. I'll begin tracking rhythm electric and solos soon. We will have guest pedal-steel, mandolin, fiddle, players for sweetening overdubs.

In a month or two we will be faced with the question: Where do we mix it?
My respect to the dude that is recording us, but I don't think so! I am yet to hear something he had mixed. The rest of the studio dudes I know are far from this kind of style of music aesthetically. We don't want "Nashville" sound - no way! More like Texas sound ala Lyle Lovette, Dwight Yoakam, old-school country, americana .... you get the idea.

How do I shop for the right mixer? Besides someone that understands the sound I was referring to I would like them to use more outborad gear than pulgins if possible. I am a big fan of digital - I use Cubase SX, DP, and ProTools all the time, but not for this project. No Autotune, no sir, at least not on the entire vocal track! Certain notes here and there maybe, but harmonies can make big difference in my opinion. As raw as possible.

Do you guys have any idea where to look and who to approach? I'll supply more info if need.

Thanks!

[Protools Guy]

Find the recordings that you respect and then contact the guy who mixed them.

If all those cats are out of your price range, then shop around to the local "up & coming" guys and listen to the stuff they've mixed.

Make your decision on the vibe you get from the engineer too. You may need him to make a few revisions and you'll need a guy who's going to be up-front on the costs of the extra work.

[Gdim]

Thanks protools,

I will have to make list of the engineers that worked on some of the stuff we dig - this is a good idea!

A lot of the "local & upcoming" guys like to talk about the gear they have and the gear they about to buy. A lot of them don't even offer a compilation CD of songs they mixed. It's feels like we are about to have musician joining the band without even auditioning them. The "vibe" of the engineer is one of the things I am looking for as well - you're right on the money on that one!

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by Gdim

How do I shop for the right mixer? Besides someone that understands the sound I was referring to I would like them to use more outborad gear than pulgins if possible.

Is the tracking all analog? If so, then perhaps you're going to contend with staying on the format you're in all the way through to mix.

If it's digitized, though, and you find somebody who's "got it" in terms of mixing stuff you like, are you really interested in communicating to them that you'd like them to use more outboard than plug-ins? I would say, given your stylistic concerns, that the odds-on favorite for >releases< in your sub-genre is that any given album will have had a large-format analog console mix, but I would also say that that has to do with:
1) label budgeting allowing a choice of format and
2) 10+ year vets having already developed a mixing style, which is (unless they've changed it, e.g.: Shipley) analog console mixing by definition.

Oh, yeah, and 3) The workflow, aesthetic, and tradition of roots/americana and old-school country makes having a computer in the studio waaaay less sexy than having something with knobs and faders and something with spinning wheels in the studio. And, as shallow as that is (purely in a "vibe" context OUTSIDE OF SONIC CONCERNS), if it makes people have better performances at the end of the day for whatever reason, than it's a plus just on that level. But this is only relevant during tracking, when things like "state of mind" influence things like "vocal performance."

What's your budget, and how many songs are you doing?

You could cold-call or email and try to contact mixers you like -- if they're out of reach ($$$), ask them to recommend someone, then listen to THEIR stuff. You may end up flying to NY, L.A., or Nashville (there are mavericks and rebels in Nashville by the dozen who don't buy into the "Nashville Sound," by the way) come mix time, but it'd be a small price to pay to work with a mixer who has release credits/a reel you like.

WITH THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, is your tracking release-worthy? Is the "dude" who is recording you capturing it in a way that'll make mixing easy? Is you + the band the best "look" for production, or would an outside ear have been a better bet? Not that you need to second guess yourself, but there comes a moment when you have to decide what role this recording is going to play in your career (or maybe the band is just comprised of "weekend warriors," in which case I say have fun and knock yourself out!) -- since the boundaries of your sub-genre are so well defined and you haven't mentioned one word about crossing the line into innovation/"new" sounds, you're up against a LOT of stiff competition, and PRODUCTION IDEAS WILL NOT SAVE YOU because you have chosen a sub-genre in which the recording process is basically a process of documenting the audio and then mixing it to sound "real" -- as if the band is playing in front of you.

Which brings up the question -- are the players in your band (and you) in a league with Dwight Yoakam and Lyle Lovett's players?

And outside of those players having made the records with the marquee artists, think about how many records those players are making during their months off as session players or in side projects -- your recording is competing for the same space, sitting on the same shelves (or not).

Maybe songwriting will save you. That's the "lottery pick." But a B or C-level RECORDED SOUND or B or C-level PERFORMANCE (or anything) will distract the listener (A & R or audience member) to the point that even a casual listener who is familiar with the sub-genre will know that the CD they bought at the store is major-league and yours isn't. And you'll be stuck trying to get friends on myspace to come to your show so you can generate "industry momentum" and keep the band together so you can make a CD of the next bunch of songs.

Why am I looking this far ahead with it? Because you owe it to yourself to:

a) Make a NO COMPROMISES recording,

or

b) Get this one done on time, on budget, and sounding "really good," so you can start saving for (and maybe finding an experienced producer for) your next one, i.e.: the NO COMPROMISES recording, which, by the way, if y'all aren't SMOKIN' players, may involve session musicians. Unless you like being an also-ran or playing in the minor-league sandbox, which is respectable in its own right. Once again, I am ASSUMING YOU GUYS AREN'T A+ SESSION-QUALITY-BEEN-DOING-IT-FOR-20-YEARS players. This isn't gimmick/image music or machine-programmed music. Congratulations -- you picked one of the few genres left in which "quality is king."

There are people (and indie + major labels) who, making a record like this, would hire a drummer from so-and-so's band, a guitarist who backed up such-and-such for years, etc., stick them in Studio A at Platinum-on-the-wall, Inc., give them charts, and tell them "we're not leaving until basic tracks are done. Bill me." And, if there's a band involved, those folks would be "backing up" the band.

[Gdim]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Is the tracking all analog? If so, then perhaps you're going to contend with staying on the format you're in all the way through to mix.

Thanks for the reply! We tracked all drums and bass in one day through SSL9000 to a PT HD clocked to Rosetta 200. For the Bass we used Neumann U87 and 84/Vintech i73. The Ac Guitars we recorded in Room B to PT HD, DPA 4011/N 84 to a Millennia HV3. Lead Vocals were done through the Millennia and U87. All tracks are PT sessions. When I called the engineer "dude" I meant no disrespect - he's my friend and I have nothing against him. He is not a weekend warier recording engineer - it's his daytime gig, I would say. I know his taste and I heard another project he had recorded in Nashville currently in the works. He is not the man for the job!

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

What's your budget, and how many songs are you doing?

We recorded 13. All of the are going on the CD. We have done extensive pre-production and out of 18 songs we decided those 13. They were the ones that felt right and sounded promising. We haven't' decided on the mixing budget yet. I can get rough number if needed.

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

You could cold-call or email and try to contact mixers you like -- if they're out of reach ($$$), ask them to recommend someone, then listen to THEIR stuff. You may end up flying to NY, L.A., or Nashville (there are mavericks and rebels in Nashville by the dozen who don't buy into the "Nashville Sound," by the way) come mix time, but it'd be a small price to pay to work with a mixer who has release credits/a reel you like.

Perhaps choosing a mixer who has release credits is important or as much important as choosing the RIGHT mixer who can take the songs to the next level.

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

WITH THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, is your tracking release-worthy? Is the "dude" who is recording you capturing it in a way that'll make mixing easy?

Yes - it's release worthy and mixing will be easy! How do I know that? You will have to take my word for now.

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Is you + the band the best "look" for production, or would an outside ear have been a better bet? Not that you need to second guess yourself, but there comes a moment when you have to decide what role this recording is going to play in your career (or maybe the band is just comprised of "weekend warriors," in which case I say have fun and knock yourself out!) -- since the boundaries of your sub-genre are so well defined and you haven't mentioned one word about crossing the line into innovation/"new" sounds, you're up against a LOT of stiff competition, and PRODUCTION IDEAS WILL NOT SAVE YOU because you have chosen a sub-genre in which the recording process is basically a process of documenting the audio and then mixing it to sound "real" -- as if the band is playing in front of you.

All songs for this release are written by the lead singer. In my opinion he is very talented song writer. I like his voice even more. I didn't like the way he plays Ac Guitar on some of the tunes so I ended up recording most of them. "Innovation" and "new sounds" - I didn't mentioned, I know. I'll be trading 4s with a clarinet player on a train-beat (kind of) tune called "Tennessee" - how's that for new or different? I am eastern European myself and you hear all over the record gypsy style soloing, Hungarian Chardash mixed with lot's of jazz. Jazz is my eternal love! You're right it's all about the playing and I know that we are against lot's competition.
I play guitar professionally(besides the band I do solo shows during which I play Latin jazz, flamenco nuevo, etc). The lead singer makes living from gigging solo-acoustic. The drummer is awesome - he's a touring jazz musician who plays with very old bebop guy called Sam Rivers. I wish he could be more available - he is not a permanent member of the band. The bass player is really good - he's the only one with a day time job.

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Which brings up the question -- are the players in your band (and you) in a league with Dwight Yoakam and Lyle Lovett's players?

And outside of those players having made the records with the marquee artists, think about how many records those players are making during their months off as session players or in side projects -- your recording is competing for the same space, sitting on the same shelves (or not).

It would be very arrogant to compare myself to any of those players, but let me assure you: I CAN STAND MY GROUND AND THAT IS WHAT INSPIRES ME THE MOST!. We opened for a few major acts like Brad Paisley, Marty Stewart, Travis Tritt, and the Los Lobos. Of all these people the only person that came to me and said good words about my and the band's performance was Brad - he is a true performer and MONSTER GUITARIST! The band has 10 years under it's belt.
By the way, you trying to "scare" me with session cats - do you know where I met the best players? During some of the those hippie festivals we played. Have heard of James Nash of the "Waybacks" or Marc Atkinson who leads the Bills and M.A.T.. Well I played and I know James and Marc. Their level in my opinion is much HIGHER than any session cat you're referring to. Session cats - same sound, same cliches, new take... Whatever! Don't mean to be arrogant but I have to!

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Maybe songwriting will save you. That's the "lottery pick."

That too...

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Why am I looking this far ahead with it? Because you owe it to yourself to:

a) Make a NO COMPROMISES recording,

or

b) Get this one done on time, on budget, and sounding "really good," so you can start saving for (and maybe finding an experienced producer for) your next one, i.e.: the NO COMPROMISES recording

Sounding really good is half the battle - sounding different and fresh - that's more exciting!

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

..., which, by the way, if y'all aren't SMOKIN' players, may involve session musicians. Unless you like being an also-ran or playing in the minor-league sandbox, which is respectable in its own right. Once again, I am ASSUMING YOU GUYS AREN'T A+ SESSION-QUALITY-BEEN-DOING-IT-FOR-20-YEARS players. This isn't gimmick/image music or machine-programmed music. Congratulations -- you picked one of the few genres left in which "quality is king."

Me and the drummer have played 20+ years. I started 1979. I play all guitars - nylon classical, metal string, electric, bozouki, eastern European mandolin (not sure about the name), bass. It's not sequenced or programmed music - not at all! Don't want to start with listing styles...

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

There are people (and indie + major labels) who, making a record like this, would hire a drummer from so-and-so's band, a guitarist who backed up such-and-such for years, etc., stick them in Studio A at Platinum-on-the-wall, Inc., give them charts, and tell them "we're not leaving until basic tracks are done. Bill me." And, if there's a band involved, those folks would be "backing up" the band.

That's not the case! Thanks for your input.

[Thumper]

Before anything else, you have to figure out your budget.

Also, tracking has a lot to do with the final sound of the product. There are some things that you just can't "fix in the mix."

Good luck.

[DeathMonkey]

Here's my $0.02. Take one or two songs, put the tracks on CD in a universal format, and ask mixing engineers to take a quick whack at it ( you may have to pay an hourly for this for high end mixing engineers ) pick the ones you like the most. Quick, simple, to the point.

Most mixing engineers I know will do a couple of prospective rough mixes for free for the shot at a 13 song paid gig. People can talk a good game, but the proof is in the product.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by Gdim

It would be very arrogant to compare myself to any of those players, but let me assure you: I CAN STAND MY GROUND AND THAT IS WHAT INSPIRES ME THE MOST!. We opened for a few major acts like Brad Paisley, Marty Stewart, Travis Tritt, and the Los Lobos. Of all these people the only person that came to me and said good words about my and the band's performance was Brad - he is a true performer and MONSTER GUITARIST! The band has 10 years under it's belt.
By the way, you trying to "scare" me with session cats

Session cats - same sound, same cliches, new take... Whatever! Don't mean to be arrogant but I have to!

No prob -- cool. I wasn't trying to scare you with the "session cat" talk -- but understand that there are no prequalifiers here -- so I feel obliged to cover all the bases...as in "are you guys an actual bunch of musicians creating release-ready stuff, or not?" It's a valid question. And roots/Americana doesn't allow you to hide behind FX or loop production.

I know session cats who can do it all, including be innovative and different. It's up to the producer.

And, on top of that, there is no "scare" anybody here (at least from me), but I do assume (unless stated otherwise) that typical goals would be: record a good sounding record and be successful in the commercial marketplace. One approach to this is to get players who EVERY DAY play on stuff from different genres that hits the radio waves. They're defining the sounds that are selling -- period. Same applies to the mix.

From the description, I'd be interested in hearing the music you're doing. It sounds like a great combination! I am especially intrigued by the possiblities of jazz harmony being integrated into the sound -- I assure you, from the original post, I was visualizing something QUITE different!

Understand there was nothing about "different" and "fresh" in your original post, so I am excited to hear where you're taking the tracks.

[T_R_S]

How do I find the right mixing engineer...

Check out the engineers demo reel and credits.
If you like what you hear it's probably a good choice.
Get them to mix ONE song and PAY them for it.
When ever someone gets paid to do a job they will work extra hard.

[Gdim]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

No prob -- cool. I wasn't trying to scare you with the "session cat" talk -- but understand that there are no prequalifiers here -- so I feel obliged to cover all the bases...as in "are you guys an actual bunch of musicians creating release-ready stuff, or not?" It's a valid question. And roots/Americana doesn't allow you to hide behind FX or loop production.

I know session cats who can do it all, including be innovative and different. It's up to the producer.

And, on top of that, there is no "scare" anybody here (at least from me), but I do assume (unless stated otherwise) that typical goals would be: record a good sounding record and be successful in the commercial marketplace. One approach to this is to get players who EVERY DAY play on stuff from different genres that hits the radio waves. They're defining the sounds that are selling -- period. Same applies to the mix.

From the description, I'd be interested in hearing the music you're doing. It sounds like a great combination! I am especially intrigued by the possiblities of jazz harmony being integrated into the sound -- I assure you, from the original post, I was visualizing something QUITE different!

Understand there was nothing about "different" and "fresh" in your original post, so I am excited to hear where you're taking the tracks.

I get your point Gregg! I appreciate you being stand up and straight to the point! I didn't mean to be vague in my first post.
I have two major battles that I carry on with my band-mates - one is (me) avoiding cliches - lot's times when asked to come up with something more "melodic" the lead singer "leads" me to the very uncomfortable zone of predictability and well recognized melodic content. Well, it's not all cliches, but it sounds to me like I have heard it before so I get very reluctant playing repeating crafted hooks etc.
The second one is I take a lot of heat being too jazzy - "this sounds like jazz", "that sounds like jazz", "can you come up with something more twangy?" To be productive we need to meet in the middle. We decided to think of nothing else but of the song itself. If it works for the song: yes! It's not about me. You know how roots/americana/classic country have simple progressions - we'll that forces me to come up with different ways to embellish the progression at least on my end. There's nothing sensational harmonically in this particular set of songs, because we thought of the songs. It wasn't like: "you know man, I play a smoking lead in "blah, blah" tune - we should record it and add it to this release"! Nope.

We're recording here: Starkelake The pictures of the gear are old. It has the new HD stuff all over. I guess I was mistaken about the SSL calling it 9000 - it's 6056 G+.

Gregg, if you PM me with your email I can send you some mp3s from our previous stuff to get an idea what we are up to. The current production has drums bass acoustic and lead vocal - recording is not complete yet. Now that I am listening to some of the old stuff I realize how much things have changed for this project.

I am compiling all ideas from this thread into a doc!

Thanks again! Great board!

[wwittman]

While I don't disagree that a good mixer can bring a record "to the next level", it's also important to remember that really the record needs to sound, pretty much, like the record BEFORE you send it to be mixed.

I more often see people with unrealistic expectations than not.

Having said that, focusing on gear (what it;s recorded on, what it should be mixed on...) is almost certainly a waste of time.

What matters is someone who "gets it" (meaning YOU), whose taste you trust, and who is experienced enough to actually bring something to the table.
Again, not so that some miracle will occur, but so you'll get something for your money that you would NOT have got from your current engineer.

And budget IS the next big question.

[djui5]

William

[Tony Shepperd]

I agree with you William.
Over the past two weeks I have done something I have never had to do.
An artist came to me a few weeks ago and asked me to mix the single for his record.
He gave me a copy of his album, which is already in music stores and iTunes.
It was released a month ago. I told him I could mix the album, but unfortunately for him I don't think it would sound ANYTHING like his record.
He told me that wouldn't be a problem, in that the album was already in the stores and there was nothing that could change that.
Well, I mixed the single on a Wednesday, he heard it on Thursday and Friday morning he came back to my studio and brought his drive.
"You're right" he said, "how long will it take you to remix my entire record."

Now that's a first in my 20 years of doing this. Remixing a complete record that is already in the stores.
My point to you is simple, be very careful who ends up mixing your material. Listen to their work and feel confident they can pull off a great mix.
Otherwise you will find yourself back on this forum, asking the same questions at the top of next year.

And budget IS the next big question.
To quote Trevor Horn after winning Record of the Year, the press asked him about being a musical genius and he said to them,
Genius... is in the budget!

[idylldon]

Originally Posted by wwittman

While I don't disagree that a good mixer can bring a record "to the next level", it's also important to remember that really the record needs to sound, pretty much, like the record BEFORE you send it to be mixed.

I recently had this proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt when I got to "mix" the original multitracks to "What's Going On?" by Marvin Gaye. I loaded all the files and then brought up the faders on every track, and there is was--the song. To my mind and ears, it would take a concerted effort to make a poor mix of this song. It really brought home to me how important every step of the way is: solid songwriting, arrangement, performance, and recording engineering. When all those ducks are in a row, I would venture that the mix damn near takes care of itself a lot of the time. Yes, there are obviously exceptions, but my guess is that when everything is high quality from start to finish the mix takes far less work.

Cheers,
--
Don

[picksail]

Do you intend to attend the mixing sessions?

If not, a lot of studios of ftp services, which will alllow for referencing material and making notes for the mixer to follow.

Much cheaper than travel/lodging, in my opinion.

[scott petito]

do yourself a favor find a good mixer and stay home......

cheers
SP