US to UK buying/shipping

[nickdabass]

Does anyone here on the UK side have any experience of buying high end gear in the US and shipping it back here to the UK? At the current dollar exchange rate, even with paying VAT, it's possible to save a lot of money compared with buying it over here (if even available).. and most high end stuff is usually already dual voltage....

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by nickdabass
Does anyone here on the UK side have any experience of buying high end gear in the US and shipping it back here to the UK? At the current dollar exchange rate, even with paying VAT, it's possible to save a lot of money compared with buying it over here (if even available).. and most high end stuff is usually already dual voltage....

Yes, I have a little experience. Its dicey, sometimes works out, sometimes not. The problem is most high end gear is a long term thing and you kind of expect a long term support relationship to go along with the deal. When you take something out of the country, the dealer doesn't hear from you much anymore. So you kind of disappear to them. Since you aren't doing regular business with them, they disppear for you too. This is where most problems start, because its often years into ownership that you need the support relationship.

The only other issue with this is that some US manufacturers do NOT offer any warranty service out of the country whatsoever. That's the local importers job, whom only services what he sells. So you are stuck.

Best shop around very carefully and ask about after the sale stuff-the part that matters to you after you do the deal.

Brad

[chrisso]

I've bought TONS of stuff out of the US.
Brad is right about the after sales scenario. To be honest I've mostly bought used items and most often vintage used items.
Certainly if it's a piece of kit that is likely to require after sales help I'd avoid it. I'm thinking hard disc recording equipment/software etc where you would expect upgrade paths. These systems often need a lot of help setting up also.
Having said all that, many other things are so much cheaper Stateside I find it hard to destroy my bank account paying the (rip off) UK prices.

I've bought microphones, compressors, fx, mic/pre's and drums from US outlets. You just have to resign yourself to paying a tech if anything goes wrong with the gear. I've rarely had to resort to that!
Once again, UK prices are often 50% - 100% more than US prices and with the dollar rate at the moment it's a no brainer for me.

[Ol' Betsey]

I've gotten quite a bit of stuff from the States too and no problems.

There is the support worries but hey, in general, UK support sucks...

Buy the good gear from good and reputable companies in the US (a few names ALWAYS seem to pop up on here) and they'll really look after you.

And the way that I see it, most UK-based audio companies don't really have enough of the high-end stock to freely swap out replacements if you have any problems so you'll just have to send it back to the States anyway. (Assuming it was made in the US of course.)

The huge savings and superior US support really sway the ball for me...

As a side note: The cost of calls to the US is pretty expensive but let me tell you, I've NEVER called the USA and NOT got the information/help/service I was looking for.

Good luck,

R.

P.S. Guitar Center = Turnkey. You know what I mean...

[chrisso]

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey

There is the support worries but hey, in general, UK support sucks...
And the way that I see it, most UK-based audio companies don't really have enough of the high-end stock to freely swap out replacements if you have any problems so you'll just have to send it back to the States anyway. (Assuming it was made in the US of course.)

That's all very true.
I got a faulty US bought API compressor replaced (like for like) immediately, no questions asked. I've never had that kind of service in the UK.
Like "yeah we'll need to take a look at the unit for a couple of weeks"
Aaaargh.
Also, some of this gear is just out and out hard to find in the UK.
On the phone call front, I've rarely needed to use it either (the wonders of the interweb), but there are plenty of cheap phone plans.
My bird calls Australia for an hour for a couple of quid using OneTel.

[madrigal]

I so agree! Buying from good companies, even if they're in the US, will get you better service than if you bought the same stuff (for double the price) from some semi-pro gear warehouse over on this side of the pond. I've got tons of stuff from the US, and have only ever had a problem once - in which case a replacement part was quickly shipped to me free of charge. On the other hand, I've had several frustrating experiences where gear bought here has had problems, and I've been waiting weeks for replacements.

So go for it. The exchange rate at the moment is so good that, as you say, even with VAT you still end up saving. Now all you've got to worry about is some UPS doofus dropping the box while it's being shipped....

[chrisso]

I think there's a theme developing here....
Wish some Euro distributors would take note.

[ProFool]

Originally posted by chrisso
I think there's a theme developing here....
Wish some Euro distributors would take note.

Im not a distributer just a consumer.
we pay double taxes outhere, first the tax included in the import product & then we pay another 21 percent.
Even with the Euro currency higher than the $ we pay more, bloody tax rip off's !!!!fuuck

How much tax is included in the US ?

[Riccardo]

Chrisso,
do you know how much is the import duty into the U.K.?
I can't remember......something around 6% maybe?
Cheers.

[chrisso]

No I can't. It's definitely under 10%.
In reality it's piffling.
The killer is VAT.
17.5% AND they calculate it on the total declared value PLUS shipping, so if the item is big and heavy or the retailer insists on using an expensive overnight courier it really bumps up the cost.
If you're vat registered buying from the US is a no brainer though.

[Ol' Betsey]

I did some investigating before I started buying gear from the US and I wrote this in an earlier thread...

"The Import Duty is levied according to the product and from what I've gathered is generally between 3 and 7 percent. This obviously varies and the no. you need to call is (+44) 01702 366 077. They will then ask you for a description of the item and then give you a reference code. You then take this reference code and call (+44) 0845 010 9000 and they will tell you the percentage of tax levied.

The tax is based on the amount the item is declared to be worth plus any insurance and delivery cost. These are all added together and then taxed by the percentage given. "

And like Chrisso said, then you've got to add VAT.

The last gear I imported were a couple of AD8000's and if I remember correctly I paid 4.5% tax.

The thing I don't understand is how these European companies can still try, and successfully, pull this off... I mean really.

Some are getting better. Especially the ones that realise they're probably only going to sell a few of any particular piece and unless they cool the price the ones that are going to buy it are savvy enough to just get it from the States.

Stupid game but let us rejoice in the power of the information provided through the WWW.

R.

[chrisso]

Something I want to buy soon is a Kurzweil Rumor.
The UK distributors price is £629 about $1,115.
They can currently be had on Ebay (USA) for $499.
It's like double.

[quadwould]

nickdabass,
Do it. you will save tons of money.
i buy all of my gear there. i have a few contacts, 1 really good one, that do great discounts down from the street/advertised prices.

PM me if you want the details... this one dealer can get anything (he is very well connected), does the gear at great prices (even for over there) and will ship the gear (insured of course) in a way that you wont have to pay import duties.... best of all.. its all legit...
sometimes, i will courier the gear from there back to London myself, for a friend. this is usually done when there is a lot of gear involved. because when passing through customs.. if i get stopped, its very easy to pass the gear off as used, and that it is personal effects, (gear i take when doing gigs).

it allows me the chance to see friends there, while my friend gets the gear at a much cheaper price.

[nickdabass]

Herein follows a cautionary tale.....

I called up KMR audio, Cranesong UK distributors and asked them the price of a trakker. They quoted £1800 (circa $3100 US at the current exchange rate) for one. After a long circuitous conversation about why it was so much higher than the US price, and them casting aspersions on the accuracy of my data, etc etc, they (to cut a long story short) offered to sell me one for £1300 - the price it would actually cost to buy it from Mercenary Audio, pay shipping, duty and VAT. After all this, when asked if they had one, they, of course didn't. "We sent them two we had to Coldplay, they love them, aren't they great, yadayadayada. As if I cared what Coldplay think - they can probably afford the initial inflated price... whereas I work in the world of jazz where every penny is very hard earned.

It was a deeply unpleasant experience... just getting them to admit the US price was what it was was like pulling teeth - information freely available on the net. It left me wondering about all the other products the sell/represent, and wondering if they were all similarly overpriced. I don't think I want to favour a business like that with my money - buying gear in the UK is already usually an unpleasant process, and I really hate feeling that I'm being taken advantage off - you get the feeling that most of the dealers here want to exploit your ignorance, and if you're informed, look at you as too awkward to deal with. Why bother? After all, there is usually someone more ignorant to make a mark out of.

So I reckon I'm going to do without a trakker and buy a Royer 121 - from someone else. Makes more sense in my position freelance engineer anyway.... most of the studios I get to work/play in have a U87 and maybe 414s for high end mics, and that's it. The flavours I bring give me a bit of a USP that the addition of a single channel of trakker won't make much diffrence to. SO the perfect double bass compressor may have to wait a while longer.

So the moral of the tale - when buying over here be very informed, and don't hesitate to ask why they are so expensive.....

Thanks for all your help & comments...

[Brad Lunde]

I will try to explain how this happens. I sell both imported gear and domestic gear and know the export market well.

The problem is the same in either direction. Many small companies are selling to export customers at the same price as they sell to domestic dealers. If you add duty and freight , this adds as much as 10-15% to the cost of the unit, PLUS you have to offer a local warranty your own dime, which costs money (10-15%), plus advertising (5%), putting up review units for magazines, plus trade shows (you have no idea how expensive these are), plus plus plus. So what happens is that for an importer, often the real "cost" of the unit is equivalent to the "sell" of the unit in a home market where the manufacturer pays for warranty, trade shows, advertising, review units, etc. This is a not a rip off, it is just how it is! I think not manufacturer, not importer, not dealer likes it, but how else do you get the stuff "over there"? A manufacturer that is small, as most high end manuf's are, cannot handle all these expenses alone-an importer must share in the costs.

In Europe, adding VAT, the local dealer gets none of that, the manufacturer gets none of that, that's the government commission! We don't have VAT over here yet (its coming someday), and that adds another 17.5% (in the UK anyway). So that's how you end up with a screwed up local price.

If the local guy has no local warranty, someone's gonna be hoppin mad down the line. If it never gets reviewed by magazines, you'll never know about it unless you are on the net (and a manufacturer cannot depend on the net alone at this moment in time for worldwide business). If it never gets loaned out by the importer for local dealers to try, how will they know to carry it? If you have to absorb freight both ways to make the origin country warranty happen, you could lose all the money you made on the deal on ONE warranty claim. I'm not saying this is fair, its really hard to make any kind of moeny importing things, but it is how this problem happens. No grand conspiracy, no low lifes trying to steal from you. Its just that that the economics are not good for moving things from small companies across large distances and making the end user half a world away as happy as if he lived two states away from the factory. That is what everyone wants, but its expensive to execute and the money to pay for it isn't exactly falling from the sky!

To be fair to previous posters, there are importers who do add enormous price increases to imported gear, but they are not the ones who will make it long term. We double check the domestic prices to our price, and our goal is to never be more than 8-10% more than the local market AND provide warranty, shows, loaners to new dealers, review units etc. Ths is probably fair (it costs about 8-10% just to get most things here with freight and duty). But then we understand this problem and have worked hard to address it in a way most companies don't.

Brad

[chrisso]

OK, ok, in many repects you are right but.....
The distributors we are talking about rarely advertise the price including VAT. As other posters have remarked, many products don't seem to be stocked and have to be ordered (at no initial outlay from the distributor), the returns/repair policy is often laboriously slow or at the customers expense anyway (multiple phone calls, lost studio time etc..)
Also, there is like two trade shows, two or three magazines.
Most of the high end stuff doesn't get advertised (Cranesong, Daking, AEA) and often doesn't get reviewed. The review models are either then used as dealer demos or sold as nearly new.....
It just doesn't add up to double the price to me.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by chrisso
OK, ok, in many repects you are right but.....
The distributors we are talking about rarely advertise the price including VAT. As other posters have remarked, many products don't seem to be stocked and have to be ordered (at no initial outlay from the distributor), the returns/repair policy is often laboriously slow or at the customers expense anyway (multiple phone calls, lost studio time etc..)
Also, there is like two trade shows, two or three magazines.
Most of the high end stuff doesn't get advertised (Cranesong, Daking, AEA) and often doesn't get reviewed. The review models are either then used as dealer demos or sold as nearly new.....
It just doesn't add up to double the price to me.

Chrisso: Can't argue with you there, I have no idea what other distributors in other places charge. But if we can almost do a 10-15% more than local rule, I would think they could too unless they are in a country with very high duty (which some are) and freight to and from is VERY high (like Australia or NZ). You know its not that bad for you to call em on it, and ask why. Most smart guys would be glad you called. Maybe if they understood, they'd consider a different plan or approaching their manufacturer for a better deal! You'd be surprised how many decision like this are made in a vacuum, without really understanding how you (as a buyer) react to it.
Brad

Brad

[Ol' Betsey]

Originally posted by Brad Lunde
Most smart guys would be glad you called.

That's where your wrong.

I'm an American living in the UK for 15 years and I've yet to meet a smart guy in audio sales here.

Some are OK guys. Some are kinda cool guys. But no smart guys.

Mainly arrogant. Mainly useless. Mainly a waste of time.

Maybe that's being a little harsh but there a NO UK-based audio companies I would call before looking to somewhere like Mercenary or Atlas first. It's just a fact. I've been through it all way too many times.

I know I sound like a whingeing minny but dang if I don't want to whinge like a minny sometimes!

R.

P.S. Nick? Buy the Royer. I think I know who your going to buy it from in the UK, not that different from those described above but at least they've got em' (usually...) and the price at that bad either. They've got pretty good prices on API too. One of the ONLY UK dealers to pay any attention in my book.

[ProFool]

Not trying to ask dumb questions but can you write off oversea products ? or does it depent on the country living in ?
greetz

[chrisso]

Originally posted by ProFool
Not trying to ask dumb questions but can you write off oversea products ? or does it depent on the country living in ?
greetz

Speaking of the UK, anything that pertains to your business is tax deductable to some degree (grey import or not).
Brad, I appreciate your comments. I have to fall in line behind Betsey though.
My experience is that the knowledgeable guy (or two) is concentrating on the high value accounts (ie the big pro studios and well known bands). If you are in the mid range of expenditure (or less), you get lumbered with the new kid on the sales team.
To be honest, in the past I've mentioned the difference in price between UK gear and the US, the response is along the lines of...'so do you want to buy this product or not? I have three other callers waiting for me to answer the phone'.
It makes me laugh when I see people on Gearslutz say 'ask to borrow all 3 mic/pre's and decide yourself'. In the UK you are lucky to demo something in the dealers office.
If I'm buying something here I usually phone the dealer and order it, I might mention a discount for cash and will either get short shrift or a couple of pounds knocked off.
It's a simple as that.

[Riccardo]

Originally posted by chrisso
[
It makes me laugh when I see people on Gearslutz say 'ask to borrow all 3 mic/pre's and decide yourself'. In the UK you are lucky to demo something in the dealers office.
If I'm buying something here I usually phone the dealer and order it, I might mention a discount for cash and will either get short shrift or a couple of pounds knocked off.
It's a simple as that. [/B]

You could't have described it better.

[RichT]

Originally posted by Riccardo
You could't have described it better.

I'll 'third' that too.

Most times you're lucky if the dealer can get a unit you want to buy, let alone try.

I recently imported a Sytek MPX4a direct from Sytek in Chicago.

I based my purchase on reviews from Gearslutz, etc as it was all I had available to me.

Even after bank wire charges, shipping and import tax it was still cheaper (and better) than comparable products in the UK.

Warranty? What's a warranty worth nowadays??

Support wise in the UK, I have a local tech who I trust implicitly and can look over his shoulder whilst things get fixed.

Cheers,
Rich

[Jules]

The Dollar is on its knees to the Euro & British Pound at the moment, it's a great oportunity right now.

[Jack Ruston]

BTW I call HM Customs the other day to ask about some ADA converters. The import duty was only 3.7%. I imagine all pro audio gear is about the same if not exactly that rate. If you are not paying vat there are some great savings to be had. I'm considering importing a console! You can ooh and aah about techs etc but if you are one side of the US and the manufacturer is the other, you might as well be in europe anyway if you see what I mean.

J

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by chrisso

Brad, I appreciate your comments. I have to fall in line behind Betsey though.
My experience is that the knowledgeable guy (or two) is concentrating on the high value accounts (ie the big pro studios and well known bands). If you are in the mid range of expenditure (or less), you get lumbered with the new kid on the sales team.

Chrisso:
Its sad really that we all lament the passing of supportive and smart local dealers. I am dissapointed becuase these are the guys I started business to serve, yet they are shrinking in number.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally posted by chrisso

Brad, I appreciate your comments. I have to fall in line behind Betsey though.
My experience is that the knowledgeable guy (or two) is concentrating on the high value accounts (ie the big pro studios and well known bands). If you are in the mid range of expenditure (or less), you get lumbered with the new kid on the sales team.

Chrisso:
Its sad really that we all lament the passing of supportive and smart local dealers. I am dissapointed becuase these are the guys I started business to serve, yet they are shrinking in number.

[Thermionic]

I'm an American living in the UK for 15 years and I've yet to meet a smart guy in audio sales here.

Some are OK guys. Some are kinda cool guys. But no smart guys.

Mainly arrogant. Mainly useless. Mainly a waste of time.

Are you comfortable naming a few of those you don't respect? No prob if your not, but it'd make intriguing reading as I suspect some of our "idiot list" could overlap. There's also an ethical perogative in letting fellow Sluts know who to avoid.

Personally I'll name Digital Village and Soho Soundhouse as completely inept in every conceivable manner (as if you didn't know...). Unfortunately, sometimes I've had no option but to buy from these box-shifters as a preferred dealer was out of stock and the gear was needed for an immediate project. I really miss Music Lab Euston, they were the best with try-before-buy, no question refunds etc, sadly they went under trying to compete in a fickle market.

If you're not comfortable naming names (if you have the time) please pm the list, you can be subtle rather than spell their names in capitals.

Have regularly imported gear from the States (you US folk don't know how lucky you are, we pay through the nose here). My biggest problem has been Customs duty, I've even had to pay more duty than an item is worth sometimes, ok you get the cash back, but it's a paperwork / 'phone hassle you don't need, not to mention the damage to c/flow if you import regularly.

[chrisso]

Originally posted by Thermionic
Are you comfortable naming a few of those you don't respect?

It's a hard ask as we all have to deal with them from time to time.
What I will say is that on more than one ocassion I've stood in Turnkey with several hundred pounds in my pocket looking to buy something specific. After half an hour of trying to catch someone's eye I've always ended up walking out empty handed. It's no use phoning them either, as they never answer the phone.