SDC mic single or pair for acoustic guitar

[feyshay]

My mic collection currently is a Shure SM7, Charter Oak 583B, AT 4050, Shure SM57 and Beta 58.
I'm considering a SDC to get more of a tighter attack and also for the purpose of live micing of my acoustic guitar. I've been having feedback problems when using an LDC.
Recording is a more important priority, though. I'm wondering if I should get a stereo pair. (I'd be running that pair through a Apogee Mini-Me preamps.)
Do you have to buy them as a pair, or could I get one now and get the other later?
I've been considering Shure 81, AT 4051, 4041. My acoustic guitar is a Martin.
Any recommendation on single or pair? Specific SDC? I'd like to try to limit spending to $400-$500 max for a single or $800-$1000 for a pair. I'd like to go single unless people think stereo micing is really worth it.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Bat Head Sound]

I'm not sure if I would mic an acoustic guitar live. What model of Martin is it? You might be better off just buying another guitar to use live that has a pickup system in it. That way, if you wanted to move around a little on stage, you could. The other thing you could do would be to fit a pickup system into your existing guitar. But, depending on the guitar, that could be considered a sacrilige.

[feyshay]

The Martin has a Fishman blend pickup/microphone in it. It is cutaway, too, so I've already sacrificed some sound already. The pickup is superb, actually. I was messing around with the SM7 (what I will use for vocals), and liked the different sound that gave when I had it up to the acoustic. I wanted an SDC to change things up a bit when playing softer (more fingerpicking) songs.
I was more interested in SDC for recording purposes, though.
Any recommendations?

[Bat Head Sound]

Well, it depends on the context in which it will be used. Is it being used as a solo guitar or is it being mixed in with a bunch of other instruments? Are you trying to capture the naturual sound of the acoustic guitar or do you just need it to fit in a mix? If you've got a good recording space, you could try a pair of earthworks omni's. If not, look into a pair of earthworks cardioid mics. Other than that, you could look into a pair of Audio Technica AT4051's, AKG 451's, Neumann KM184's, or even Telefunken's Ela M 260 (I'm sure there are other good mics out there that I am forgetting about). Sometimes, in a recording situation, I like to use a slightly spaced pair of mics that are different, such as an AKG 451 and a Neumann KM84. I'll use that technique if I'm double tracking acoustic guitars that are to be hard panned. On one side I'll use more of one mic and hard pan it while the other mic I'll pan slightly less and use at a lower volume. On the other side, I'll do the same thing with the mics switched. You could also try using a large diaphragm condenser pointed at the body and a small diaphragm pointed at the neck. You might want to try a Mid/Side micing technique. If done correctly, that can yeild great results. So there you have it, a couple of things to look into. Feel free to disregard anything and everything I have said.

[Jeff A. Roberts]

Back in the late 1970's I did live sound for Leo Kottke.

Contrary to the expectations of sound companies all over the world, I invariably got more gain before feedback from an OMNI mic. Sorry to shout there, but this is important.

In the ultimate incarnation, the stage rig was an AKG 451 omni with a Sony ECM55PS tie tack omni taped to it. Leo also had a Bill Lawrence red pickup which was used mostly for bass.

The little Sony had a presense peak (that's the PS in the name) in a different frequency range than the 451 omni. Those 2 omnis with their different peaks worked on every system and every room they were tried in. The mics were always used in different combinations depending on which guitar was used, the song, and other room and system variables.

Do yourself a favor and try some sdc omni mics before you make up your mind. They will provide the most hi-fi sound you can get live.

[analogjeff]

In a band situation, though, an omni on acoustic will kill you with feedback -- a good countryman "lapel mic" will get you something halfway before feedback, but you'll still need a good pickup and preamp for the live thing... -- unless you're totally solo, then it's likely a different story...

[feyshay]

Originally Posted by Jeff A. Roberts

Back in the late 1970's I did live sound for Leo Kottke.

Contrary to the expectations of sound companies all over the world, I invariably got more gain before feedback from an OMNI mic. Sorry to shout there, but this is important.

In the ultimate incarnation, the stage rig was an AKG 451 omni with a Sony ECM55PS tie tack omni taped to it. Leo also had a Bill Lawrence red pickup which was used mostly for bass.

The little Sony had a presense peak (that's the PS in the name) in a different frequency range than the 451 omni. Those 2 omnis with their different peaks worked on every system and every room they were tried in. The mics were always used in different combinations depending on which guitar was used, the song, and other room and system variables.

Do yourself a favor and try some sdc omni mics before you make up your mind. They will provide the most hi-fi sound you can get live.

Thanks. Very interesting. Since I'm using them for recording and my room is not too bad, a switchable mic would probably make the best sense--omni and cardiod. (Switched to cardioid in case of a problem when live.) Let me check into some SDC's that would fit that description, unless anyone has any recommendations?

[tnjazz]

Beyerdynamic MC930 would be a good choice.

[Jeff A. Roberts]

Originally Posted by analogjeff

In a band situation, though, an omni on acoustic will kill you with feedback

I disagree 100%.

I repeat: I was always able to get more gain before feedback with the afforementioned omnis than with ANY cardioid mics that we tried. Band or no band, the cardioid mics were always MORE prone to feedback than the omni mics.

Perhaps current cardioid mics aren't as prone to feedback as they were in the 70's, but I don't think that's the case.

I'm talking about empirical experience here. I've had system operators all over the world tell me that I'm nuts and that their SM 57 or 441 or 421 or whatever will not only sound better but also provide more gain before feedback. And I proved all of them wrong just by putting up their pet mic and showing them the howls and squeals.......

So use a pickup, use a megaphone, use a cardioid, I don't care. But back when I was a fulltime acoustic guitar mixerguy, I couldn't do a show without an AKG451 omni, and that taped-on Sony ECM55PS.

[numrologst]

my standard is usally this:

sm81 if there is not gonna be much else going on.
akg c451 if i want it to cut in a mix

And if its a weird acoustic that I can't get to sound right, I will usually bring out an r84, 414, or l47 as a last resort.

i have a buddy whose last resort mic is a studio projects c1. He's got all the afformentioned mics too plus kn84's and josephons... Still I have seen him use that c1 on acoustic after acoustic

[James Lehmann]

I have a pair of Gefell M300's which are superb on acoustic and very useful on a multitude of other sources too. That said, I did hear the M300's in a comparative test with some Neumann KM84's, and I think if it was only for acoustic guitar and you can find a pair I might choose the latter for their slightly warmer, more flattering sound.