Getting paid as a recording/mix engineer

[Joemamma]

I was wondering what is the "normal" way of getting paid for your work as a recording/mix engineer.


How do you get paid? Per studio hour? Through royalties? Both studio hours and through royalties?

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

[cap217]

recording: hour or project

mixing: per project or single. Top guys may get points or a part of points but thats a different situation and not the norm at all. And some people charg mixes per hour (dont know why). Then the artist wants 3 songs an hour done!!!

[PapillonIrl]

Originally Posted by cap217

mixing: per project or single. Top guys may get points or a part of points but thats a different situation and not the norm at all. And some people charg mixes per hour (dont know why). Then the artist wants 3 songs an hour done!!!

What happens when the artist is producing, and wants endless tweaks done ?

Seems to me that the 'per project' rate arrangement falls down here.


Nathan

[drBill]

Mostly by day rate. Often on an hourly rate. Never on a project rate unless I'm feeling some sort of strange death wish.

[paultools]

Recording is hourly.

For mixing, I do a flat fee per song, with one recall allowed for small tweaks.
Further recalls are done at an hourly rate.

Also, remember that recordings and recordings OF mixes are YOUR intellectual property until paid for by the client. You can use this fact as leverage if you didn't get paid before a recording is released commecially. Labels HATE copyright infringement!

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by drBill

Never on a project rate unless I'm feeling some sort of strange death wish.

If I were getting my actual, non-discounted rate 90% of the time, I'd be happy to do work on a per-project basis. The truth is, the people who pay the LEAST tweak songs the MOST.

The trouble, especially with mixing, is when people go "it's perfect, EXCEPT" and you realize that by the time you bump a client later by 2 hours so you can open the mix (which has already inflated to disastrous levels thanks to the "just one more track" syndrome -- and which now is so slow opening that you can get a sandwich while it says "Restoring tracks..."), wait for them to be 1/2 hour late, accomplish the tweak(s) (which in reality DOES take 2 minutes, but they brought their manager, who wants to hear the song twice through), consider other tweaks using words like "add drama" and "create atmosphere" and "maybe we need a..."

...and then you do your CD burn for them, the label, the bandmates, and the co-writer...dammit, you've gotta push your next client back AGAIN and you realize that if you were making what a PLUMBER CHARGES TO FIX SOMEBODY'S TOILET on an hourly, you would've made HOW MUCH on the mix and HOW MUCH on the tweaks -- and that doesn't count the studio time, which really should be paid for separately IMO.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

The truth is, the people who pay the LEAST tweak songs the MOST.

Ain't that the truth!

[djui5]

We get paid?

[treymonfauntre]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

If I were getting my actual, non-discounted rate 90% of the time, I'd be happy to do work on a per-project basis. The truth is, the people who pay the LEAST tweak songs the MOST.

The trouble, especially with mixing, is when people go "it's perfect, EXCEPT" and you realize that by the time you bump a client later by 2 hours so you can open the mix (which has already inflated to disastrous levels thanks to the "just one more track" syndrome -- and which now is so slow opening that you can get a sandwich while it says "Restoring tracks..."), wait for them to be 1/2 hour late, accomplish the tweak(s) (which in reality DOES take 2 minutes, but they brought their manager, who wants to hear the song twice through), consider other tweaks using words like "add drama" and "create atmosphere" and "maybe we need a..."

...and then you do your CD burn for them, the label, the bandmates, and the co-writer...dammit, you've gotta push your next client back AGAIN and you realize that if you were making what a PLUMBER CHARGES TO FIX SOMEBODY'S TOILET on an hourly, you would've made HOW MUCH on the mix and HOW MUCH on the tweaks -- and that doesn't count the studio time, which really should be paid for separately IMO.

i'm sure that plumber would happily take your job as well

[asylumdigital]

hourly rates & day rates over here... project rates have never worked out right for me & I have sworn to myself to not do it again.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by treymonfauntre

i'm sure that plumber would happily take your job as well

Compare what a dialogue editor or video editor gets to what an audio engineer gets. And don't forget that they have union cards and collective bargaining rights, among other things.

I wasn't trying to contrast my work (or another engineer's) to a plumbers. I was contrasting the consumer value placed on it. Sure, it's supply and demand, but there IS a short supply of people creating "radio-ready" music -- and a large supply of fakers ready to say they can pull it off -- they glut up the system and cannibalize prices. And at the end of the day, I have to deal with the fact that I made THAT engineer or THAT musician look good by fixing their parts and/or tracking (all the while being professional and NOT making negative comments to the artist or producer), thereby feeding that particular cycle.

Producer/engineers I know with release credits but without multiple "big time" mix credits have a hard time getting rates commensurate with their experience and their demonstrated ability to take raw product/sound and create radio ready product. This is especially difficult to justify in a field in which, often, it is the producer/engineer truly "making" the record -- in contrast to, say, a film editor's work: he has the screenwriter's story, the director's vision, the cinematographer's eye, and the actor's craft working in his favor before he even goes through those dailies.

[cdog]

Monopoly Money!

[mrlouie]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

The truth is, the people who pay the LEAST tweak songs the MOST.

hahahahahahaaaa ... yep

[mrlouie]

Originally Posted by treymonfauntre

i'm sure that plumber would happily take your job as well

not if he or she knew how many hours are put in vs. the amount of money you make .

[mrlouie]

when i used to record it was per hour... when i would mix it would be per song .. so i could work on it till i was happy and didnt have to hear anyone complain about the time.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Sure, it's supply and demand, but there IS a short supply of people creating "radio-ready" music -- and a large supply of fakers ready to say they can pull it off -- they glut up the system and cannibalize prices.

Gregg, you've singlehandedly defined the death pangs for a lot of professional engineers and our industry in general. Too many wannabee's masquerading as professionals. I wish we had a crying emoticon......

[Plush]

by check

We always get paid.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by drBill

Gregg, you've singlehandedly defined the death pangs for a lot of professional engineers and our industry in general. Too many wannabee's masquerading as professionals. I wish we had a crying emoticon......

I believe that the GOOD engineers always stand out in the end. If you loose a cheap client to the new guy, he (the client) may get screwed and never go back that route, or he may get lucky and discover new talent. New people have to charge less than the seasoned AE...and this one always charge more.
Actually if you are too cheap no serious client will take you...
do good work in a constant bases and get the valuable word of mouth running. you should be able to negotiate your rate according to the client's reality and expectations.

[RusRant]

Straight hourly. No bulk rates or day rates. Mostly mixing as of late.

[David Brown]

Another angle to this that I remember when freelancing 20 years ago was my rule of thirds. I spent 1/3 of my time finding work; 1/3 of my time doing the work; and 1/3 of my time trying to get paid. I hope it's better these days.

David Brown

[Protools Guy]

Hourly, with a discounted day rate; NO project rates.

[nlc201]

Originally Posted by djui5

We get paid?

DUDE! Didn't you know? We're all in this for the big fat paycheck that comes with this job, especially at the entry level!!!

[noahrobd]

Originally Posted by drBill

Gregg, you've singlehandedly defined the death pangs for a lot of professional engineers and our industry in general. Too many wannabee's masquerading as professionals. I wish we had a crying emoticon......

I believe this is true for any industry. A difference is, ours happens to be an industry in which no certification or license is REQURIED to work. I also believe this happens because of how hard it is to break into the field and the lack of "fostering" or "rearing" of new-comers to become great engineers. How often do top engineers take time to apprentice or work with interns. I think if their were more adequate systems in place to educate and experience people, there would be fewer "wannabees".

[djui5]

Originally Posted by nlc201

DUDE! Didn't you know? We're all in this for the big fat paycheck that comes with this job, especially at the entry level!!!

Well you just let me know when I'm supposed to start collecting money. I keep trying, and they keep denying me

[Joemamma]

Thanks for all the feedback!

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

The trouble, especially with mixing, is when people go "it's perfect, EXCEPT" and you realize that by the time you bump a client later by 2 hours so you can open the mix (which has already inflated to disastrous levels thanks to the "just one more track" syndrome -- and which now is so slow opening that you can get a sandwich while it says "Restoring tracks..."), wait for them to be 1/2 hour late, accomplish the tweak(s) (which in reality DOES take 2 minutes, but they brought their manager, who wants to hear the song twice through), consider other tweaks using words like "add drama" and "create atmosphere" and "maybe we need a..."

I feel you! Recently, I've been working with a client who after I did a mix for him asked me: "Can you make it groove a bit more?" e I thought that was funny! Some people just don't know what is possible in the mix!
Anyways, I'll probably start charging per hour whenever possible.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano

Compare what a dialogue editor or video editor gets to what an audio engineer gets. And don't forget that they have union cards and collective bargaining rights, among other things.

I wasn't trying to contrast my work (or another engineer's) to a plumbers. I was contrasting the consumer value placed on it. Sure, it's supply and demand, but there IS a short supply of people creating "radio-ready" music -- and a large supply of fakers ready to say they can pull it off -- they glut up the system and cannibalize prices. And at the end of the day, I have to deal with the fact that I made THAT engineer or THAT musician look good by fixing their parts and/or tracking (all the while being professional and NOT making negative comments to the artist or producer), thereby feeding that particular cycle.

Producer/engineers I know with release credits but without multiple "big time" mix credits have a hard time getting rates commensurate with their experience and their demonstrated ability to take raw product/sound and create radio ready product. This is especially difficult to justify in a field in which, often, it is the producer/engineer truly "making" the record -- in contrast to, say, a film editor's work: he has the screenwriter's story, the director's vision, the cinematographer's eye, and the actor's craft working in his favor before he even goes through those dailies.

IMO if you mix on a DAW you can not complain because its the "DAW mixers" that brought this upon all of us.

Before that clients had to seriously pay and consider if it was worth it to them to do a recall.

Sometimes splicing different mix takes was the only way in mastering.

[Jules]

I take my hat off to you guys that have these DAW 'mix tweaks' / recall - charging systems in place.

I can't funtion on a session without, a cup of tea, then some lunch + digestion time, then some espreso.. then some dinner + digestion time, then some more esspreso. my day has so many food rituals that quick in and out sessions never seem to stand much of a chance..

Mans gotta eat!

I suppose I do inner city sessions that run like residential studio sesions... where there are often fairly set mealtimes because a cook is cooking for you..

[Bassace]

yeah i do these recalls too ...like "i'd like the vocals 0.01dB louder please" and "please make the snare get louder in the fade out " ya got ta love em

[Plush]

Jules, you're totally on target. I too require a food ritual.

We break when I need to take a feeding. We begin again after I have had some relaxing digestion time and not before that time.

I also have in my contract that I am allowed to smoke wherever and whenever I require. Sometimes that's in the studio, sometimes in the lounge or sometimes at the pool.

If the correction is less than one dB, then I know the client can't hear and he's just trying to disturb my digestion.

[s_sibs]

This is how I charge. Keep in mind that I also track 100% of the music I mix here at this point in time.

Tracking is by the hour or a block rate which breaks down to a slightly reduced hourly rate.

I'll have a pretty good idea after tracking how much time it should take to mix and a good idea of the artist (budget, how much of a perfectionist, how much a pain in the @ss, etc.) I'll then give them a block rate for mixing depending on how many hours I estimate it will take to do the mixes. I then tell the client that there will be an hourly rate after that to "tweak" with a 1 hour minimum even if it is a 2 min tweak. That way the client needs to be positive of the tweaks wanted and I don't get the "can you bring up the guitar solo a little because my girlfriend's mom thinks it should be."