Benefits of the Loudness Wars

[Nu Mixer]

I took a recent road trip and brought along some of my favorite discs. While driving on the highway, my factory stereo (+ added sub) sounded great and I really got lost in the music. (I'm sure you all can relate to that awesome feeling of an open stretch of road and great tunes!)

Then I put in some of my favorite cds from the 80's. The volumes were so low that even with my volume cranked all the way, I could hardly hear the music. This was a major buzzkill!

If you compare the Violent Femmes', "Gone Daddy Gone" to the new Gnarles Barley version you will hear what I mean.

Sometimes "turn it up" is not always possible!

[CorkyTart]

The benefit to the loudness war is that you get to take something that you most likely worked very hard on and wreck it.

[Fleaman]

In a car, an environment not ideal for dynamic music listening, a less dynamic mastering (louder!) version can be more suited for the task....especially if your car is not a modern luxury type (with a quite interior at speed).

I know that in my car, the more dynamic recordings get lost during soft parts, requiring myself to 'ride the volume' sometimes.

Hence, you've reminded us that most CD playing goes on in the car, not at home. That and the additional radio loudness wars are a hint as to why it has come to this point.

[Nu Mixer]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

IYou've reminded us that most CD playing goes on in the car, not at home. That and the additional radio loudness wars are a hint as to why it has come to this point.

Exactly!

[syra]

I think that modern car stereo systems expect a high "mastered" level. I think that a car from the 80s could turn it up a lot louder than what we have today.

[UPRYZ]

[QUOTE=Nu Mixer;993571]I took a recent road trip and brought along some of my favorite discs. While driving on the highway, my factory stereo (+ added sub) sounded great and I really got lost in the music. (I'm sure you all can relate to that awesome feeling of an open stretch of road and great tunes!)

Then I put in some of my favorite cds from the 80's. The volumes were so low that even with my volume cranked all the way, I could hardly hear the music.

Yes, a moving automobile is not the best place to listen to very dynamic music. The problem is that nobody has attacked the root of the problem. The problem isn't "the music is too dynamic", it's "the car has too high of a noise floor." Therefore IMO a proper solution would be to manufacture car audio systems with built in compressor limiters (bypassable of course), NOT to manufacture non-dynamic lifeless music that sounds flat and fatiguing on ANY system.

Dan Fox

[tigeba]

Originally Posted by Nu Mixer

If you compare the Violent Femmes', "Gone Daddy Gone" to the new Gnarles Barley version you will hear what I mean.

Sometimes "turn it up" is not always possible!

I don't know why but the Gnarles Barkley version makes me seethe with anger.

[Nu Mixer]

Originally Posted by tigeba

I don't know why but the Gnarles Barkley version makes me seethe with anger.

sounds like a personal problem.

[Andrew Kinsey]

[QUOTE=UPRYZ;993618]

Originally Posted by Nu Mixer

I took a recent road trip and brought along some of my favorite discs. While driving on the highway, my factory stereo (+ added sub) sounded great and I really got lost in the music. (I'm sure you all can relate to that awesome feeling of an open stretch of road and great tunes!)

Then I put in some of my favorite cds from the 80's. The volumes were so low that even with my volume cranked all the way, I could hardly hear the music.

Yes, a moving automobile is not the best place to listen to very dynamic music. The problem is that nobody has attacked the root of the problem. The problem isn't "the music is too dynamic", it's "the car has too high of a noise floor." Therefore IMO a proper solution would be to manufacture car audio systems with built in compressor limiters (bypassable of course), NOT to manufacture non-dynamic lifeless music that sounds flat and fatiguing on ANY system.

Dan Fox

Then there would be the never ending, ongoing debate over whats the best sounding compressor for your car, you hifi setup, etc..

[Improv]

Sounds like someone needs a louder car stereo.

[Improv]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Then there would be the never ending, ongoing debate over whats the best sounding compressor for your car, you hifi setup, etc..

And I doubt that Roundbadge has 5 ru of space in his ride for another Shadow Hills.

[SNJ Studio]

I have been listening to some early 90's stuff on my Dynaudios lately and importing the wave files into SoundForge to have a bit of a looksie... man even heavy bands back then were not squished to what we get thesedays - Smashing Pumkins Siamese Dream compared to the new Foo Figters album, jesus what a difference.

The point about the ambient noise in the car is one we all have to weigh up - do we compensate as engineers for listener not having the luxury of sitting in a controlled environment to listen to the mix as we do? Even just the noise pollution of general suburbia is something I find changes my perspective listening to my mixes. One of the things I notice when hearing a mix in the real world is compression - or should I say I can't hear it as much. Stuff that I thought was pumping like a demon in the studio always seems to be less of an issue in the car, on a discman, so on. Same with reverb - it always seems like a bad 80's mix when I pour heaps of verb on a snare or vocal, but at home I wonder what I was freakin out about and that the client wasnt being a tool asking for more.

Another benefit we may get from loudness wars is the fact stuff sounds better after MP3 conversion if the RMS signal and peak level is higher, and with the amount of music heard by our end users in MP3 format bigger than ever and not gaining momentum... anything to make MP3's sound better is good in my book.

Adam B - SNJ Studio
www.snjstudio.com

[picksail]

The benefit of the "Loudness War" is that I still receive a paycheck.

[u b k]

release a 'car/boombox' version and a 'home hi-fi' version and everyone's a happy camper.

and hey, it's not the loudness that's making your car trip more enjoyable, it's the limiting. you can do a generous amount of limiting and dynamic control without slamming digital brickwalls willynilly. listen to stp's purple on your next drive, plenty of transients on that record but gotdamn it sounds good when cranked at 85 mph.

and if your 80's cd's are too quiet, you need to tweak the gainstaging of your preamps and amplifiers. the system that came with my 2006 camry suffered from this problem, the system i replaced it with does not, i can turn up dsotm until the hair stands up on the back of your neck.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[RusRant]

Thats what I was thinking, why don't we just end the loudness war by putting a comp on the master buss on our car stereos. Slight modification and several thousand $ later and problem solved. Now why didn't we think of that earlier. I'm going with a fairchild 670, I'm old school!

[Watersound]

My '95 Mustang has a compressor on the CD player and it does get used on certain cds...pretty cool, and something I really find useful for road trips. Anyone else have this?

[tamasdragon]

Benefit? More deaf people. Many more who are not sensitive to music, many so called "engineers" who know very little, but able to work without quality.
Loudness race destroy the music and our jobs too.


Tamas Dragon

[murilix]

Last week, I set up my Mackie in the living room, so the prospective customer could try it out. I set up my MP3 player to listen to some music while waiting for him to arrive.
Then, as the Good the Bad and the Queen's last single started I went to, you know, "brown out". I set the faders at -20dB and while I was there pooping, 15 or 20 feet from the speakers, surrounded by ceramic tiles, I could finally hear details, including how really off-key Damon Albarn's singing really was.
Hope I don't get deaf before 60...

[orksnork]

seems like less work for the ME's too...but the paychecks stay the same

[studio freak]

Originally Posted by Watersound

My '95 Mustang has a compressor on the CD player and it does get used on certain cds...pretty cool, and something I really find useful for road trips. Anyone else have this?

yup, my CD player has a compressor and also a cool feature: an auto mode in wich the volume rises automatically when I speed up, and you can make your adjustments to it, it´s very usefull indeed... you dont have to listen to your girlfriend argueing...

"you´re driving too fast!... slow down please!... "

"what? say it again... i cant hear you..."

Thats the problem with cars today, too silent, they dont sound like cars, ...
wish I had a Mustang

[UPRYZ]

I wouldn't mind a vari-mu followed by an L2 mounted in my dashboard for listening to my unmastered mixes...

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by Improv

And I doubt that Roundbadge has 5 ru of space in his ride for another Shadow Hills.

LOL ---

Does he power them off the cigarette lighter?

[Gregg Sartiano]

[QUOTE=Andrew Kinsey;993659]

Originally Posted by UPRYZ

Then there would be the never ending, ongoing debate over whats the best sounding compressor for your car, you hifi setup, etc..

Car audio enthusiasts already debate everything else...

And how about the built-in DSP in car and home audio? People actually go "hey, Gregg -- wanna hear the mix in a CLUB or a JAZZ HALL?" How about "Let's hear it how I >MIXED< IT!"

The compressor idea is a very good one. The settings could be very simple -- BYP, MIN, MED, MAX. Ambient noise in a car is an issue. Problem solved.

[Bassace]

[QUOTE=Gregg Sartiano;996495]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kinsey

Car audio enthusiasts already debate everything else...

And how about the built-in DSP in car and home audio? People actually go "hey, Gregg -- wanna hear the mix in a CLUB or a JAZZ HALL?" How about "Let's hear it how I >MIXED< IT!"

LMAO

[seriousfun]

Compresors should be part of every home, car, and portable system. They will get abused just as much as tone controls and loudness switches have been in the past, but music should be mastered for reasonable levels, appropriate dynamics, and maximum fidelity.

Choice of speakers, amps, etc., as well as playback level and dynamic range, should be left to the consumer.

I know of some home audio listeners who have put RNCs on their systems to keep commercials and over-dynamic movie mixes under control.

Some car systems do have compressors, but very few.

A few car systems have automatic level controls, with a mic in the cabin which senses changes in noise levels and adjusts the audio system output appropriately.

[Gregg Sartiano]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

Compresors should be part of every home, car, and portable system. They will get abused just as much as tone controls and loudness switches have been in the past, but music should be mastered for reasonable levels, appropriate dynamics, and maximum fidelity.

thumbsup