I like Dry Vocals, but I still need a little...

Dynodawg · 17th December 2003, 07:18 AM

I really like the dry vocal sound on most of my tracks, but I have a few songs with really exposed vocals that I'm having trouble finding the right dash of something to add. I run close mic L47Mp in a live room>V76>1176.

I've tried just a very small smidge of ambiance, room, plate, or delay from my KSP8 but I'm still not finding what it needs. The only thing that has gotten me closer is to copy the track, pan hard L/R and EQ each side slightly different. That gives it more dimension and life.

So what are you guys adding to a "percieved" dry Vox?

Thanks,
Dyno

e-cue · 17th December 2003, 07:23 AM

Using a Desper Spatializer on the returns of the AMBIENCE setting in the AMS-RMX, or the STEREO ROOM setting in the 2016 ducked in the mix works pretty good for me.

entropy · 17th December 2003, 07:24 AM

Chorus.....Dimension D..... Symophonic......ADT (dmx1580).....early reflections

Screws · 17th December 2003, 04:28 PM

If I have some tracks left over from comping, I usually paste one together to match as close as possible to the phrasing of the lead. Then Autotune, LPF (down to sometimes as low as 1khz) and mix well behind the lead -- no highs, no upper mids and barely audible. I call it the "Ghost Double".

I find I have to be careful when I Autotune the ghost so as not to get any robot crap, and so there are still some pitch differences to the lead. If the lead is heavily Autotuned, I use almost none on the ghost.

Real doubling almost always sounds better to me than effects, but if there are no tracks left to work with, I mix in a smidge of delay (20 - 40 ms)
along with a tiny bit of M3000 "Vocal Doubler" patch. Somtimes I use the old SPX900 type pitch shift up 10 cents on left and down 8 cents on right.

blackcatdigi · 17th December 2003, 05:16 PM

You've got to experiment and find out what is going to work best for that particular track.

A few more things to try when 'hiding' FX:

Chorus (in on the chorus) can really lift the vox.

With verb, sometimes the ERs get in the way and muddy it up. Take them out and try longer predelays.

Delays timed to the bpm of the track (usually closest to 100 ms settings works best) can thicken without adding too much obvious effect. Push it up until it's barely audible, then pull it back a smidge. Then take it out... If you can perceive a difference, it's working.

Try adding some verb to just the delay's return. It's dry but it's wet. It's dry but it's wet. It's dry but it's wet...

Pitch shift the lead vox L-up and R-down 5-10% mixed hard left and right under the lead.

There's millions more of 'em... See what works for you. Then come back and share!

7rojo7 · 17th December 2003, 06:36 PM

Keep your vocal mic setup or recall it and put a speaker in the room somewhere, or if you like stereo vocals put up 2 vocal mics. move it all around untill it sounds good. If you need a little pitch change put something on it on the speaker side, I prefer sample and hold or square waves to sine waves for my pitch modulation and never stray more than 2 or 3 cents, with that and a little delay you can get a pretty convincing thickener. you can use 2 speakers if you want, mics in x/y or Blumlein, 1 speaker 2 mics in an A/B omni spaced pair . The only problem is that it takes a little noodling around to find the right mix. Small speakers work fine and I recommend that they're not too loud, it's the room you want, not the speakers. mic close to the speaker less verb.
the most convincing reverbs for me have always been live chambers, everytime I investigate a sound I really like it ends up being one.

jdier · 17th December 2003, 07:43 PM

Do a google search on "Exciting Compressor" The first hit is a pretty interesting article. If you use that technique but bring the compressed track even less than described, you can get a nice sound.

Jim

natpub · 18th December 2003, 03:31 AM

cool little article jim, thanks

Bob Olhsson · 18th December 2003, 07:11 AM

The Motown "exciting compressor" is really just parallel compression with the compressed channel eq'd. It cleaned up a Fairchild 670's act a great deal although Lawrence Horn's use of a noise gate in addition didn't make the story. After we got LA-2as and 1176s, we started leaving off the HF eq. on the compressed channel.

drundall · 18th December 2003, 07:41 AM

I used to use the harmonizer from an SPX90 or H3000 and
roll off the high end so it sounds darker and thicker. Get the
+-fine pitch as much as you can stand and keep the delay
short just before it gets real "slappy". The instruments will
eat up a lot of it, especially guitars. If done right it'll seem dry
but give you a thicker, stereo spread vocal.

lowswing · 18th December 2003, 02:09 PM

eventide machines do magic on vocals, send the vocal through aux to h3000 and mix the return back very low (and eq to taste)with the original voc. it sounds to me always very 3D and spacy without loosing clarity like often happened with most reverbs

faeflora · 19th December 2003, 03:02 AM

boinng!

great thread!

theom · 19th December 2003, 06:07 AM

Yup, eventide harmonizer is what might make your day.

multi pitch shift, 3 or 4 cents up on one side and down on the other, and modulate the shift a little, I eq the send killing anything under 200Hz and over 5Khz.

Then bring it in till you hear it , then back off a few dB.

a band passed 1/8th note slap is nice too.

BlueRadio · 17th January 2007, 09:53 PM

I would highly recommend any reverb with a HF roll-off. If your reverb doesn't have a roll-off, just drop an EQ with a lowpass filter on the send channel. It will warm/blend the track with the music, without all of the cheesy reverb artifacts. Short decay time, with pre-delay to taste.

not_so_new · 17th January 2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRadio

I would highly recommend any reverb with a HF roll-off. If your reverb doesn't have a roll-off, just drop an EQ with a lowpass filter on the send channel. It will warm/blend the track with the music, without all of the cheesy reverb artifacts. Short decay time, with pre-delay to taste.

And you my friend are now in the lead for the "Oldest Thread Dug Up From The Past" award so far this year.....

Golden oldie here, cool. I remember this thread from back then, maybe we can get some new ideas on the topic.

DirkB · 17th January 2007, 10:30 PM

For a dry vocalsound: little bits of a couple of FX.
Bit of mono delay, bit of room, bit of chorus/flange. Just enough to make things sit and move the vocal back in depth a touch.

Greetings,
Dirk

Jack Ruston · 17th January 2007, 10:47 PM

I quite often just use echoboy 15ips delay tweaking it for the track and mixing very low. It adds dimension and ambience without you really noticing.

J

blackcatdigi · 21st January 2007, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by not_so_new

And you my friend are now in the lead for the "Oldest Thread Dug Up From The Past" award so far this year.....

Golden oldie here, cool. I remember this thread from back then, maybe we can get some new ideas on the topic.

Wow!

4 years, 1 month almost to the day. This stuff lives forever!

There are probably forum members who weren't even born, yet...

(kidding, obviously)

juicylime · 21st January 2007, 01:52 AM

There's some good info here too: http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=41662

vernier · 21st January 2007, 02:27 AM

Seems the KSP8 should be able to add a dash of something that is usable. Maybe pre-delay with short plate.

picksail · 21st January 2007, 02:56 AM

..and people think that I'm nuts for using compressed and gated verbs on lead vocals.

studjo · 21st January 2007, 03:21 AM

Stewart I think that's for totally other reasons

I love the H3000 for thickening.

Jo

mikey · 21st January 2007, 03:55 AM

try a reverb with the predelay setting

picksail · 21st January 2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studjo

Stewart I think that's for totally other reasons

I love the H3000 for thickening.

Jo

Of course, I use a lot of short delays and pitch-shifting, but occasionally I will employ the 'reverb'.

mikey · 21st January 2007, 06:09 AM

how about recording two tracks and panning them like the beatles did

bogeyeater · 21st January 2007, 12:13 PM

a lo fi option:

ibanez ad9 - any bucket brigade chip delay laid underneath

juicylime · 21st January 2007, 12:56 PM

+1 on rolling off the highs from the verb. I also find that some verbs kind of swell up at some frequencies, it can be subtle but it's there. Finding that frequency and rolling it back a few db with a narrow Q leaves the reverb in place but with more space. Although for a big but dry sound I have decimated reverbs with EQ pulling out nearly anything of any body or that takes the ear. I started doing this while chasing Bono-esque sounds, I find it can give a panoramic feel without any of that "hi I'm the reverb and I like to be noticed" effect.

jamieboss1 · 22nd February 2007, 02:34 PM

One of my favorite tricks is to use a short delay (around an 8th note give or take) and mix it to be barely audible. Then send the delay return to a 480 A Plate.
Usually a great starting point!

joeq · 22nd February 2007, 02:44 PM

another thing worth trying is ghosting the lead vocal melody with a spacey keyboard sound.

The delay and decay of the keyboard will give the impression of reverb, but will not contain any actual vocal sound.

luctellier · 22nd February 2007, 02:45 PM

+1 Eventide Harmonizer Micropitchshift Preset (18ms/Left, 24ms/Right, +9/Left, -9/Right)

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17th December 2003, 07:18 AM	#1
Dynodawg Gear nut Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Idaho Posts: 135	I like Dry Vocals, but I still need a little... I really like the dry vocal sound on most of my tracks, but I have a few songs with really exposed vocals that I'm having trouble finding the right dash of something to add. I run close mic L47Mp in a live room>V76>1176. I've tried just a very small smidge of ambiance, room, plate, or delay from my KSP8 but I'm still not finding what it needs. The only thing that has gotten me closer is to copy the track, pan hard L/R and EQ each side slightly different. That gives it more dimension and life. So what are you guys adding to a "percieved" dry Vox? Thanks, Dyno

17th December 2003, 07:24 AM	#3
entropy Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: QLD. Australia Posts: 1,023	Chorus.....Dimension D..... Symophonic......ADT (dmx1580).....early reflections __________________ Pro Audio Pimp at www.brisound.com.au The Australian home of A Designs Audio products.

17th December 2003, 04:28 PM	#4
Screws Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 570	If I have some tracks left over from comping, I usually paste one together to match as close as possible to the phrasing of the lead. Then Autotune, LPF (down to sometimes as low as 1khz) and mix well behind the lead -- no highs, no upper mids and barely audible. I call it the "Ghost Double". I find I have to be careful when I Autotune the ghost so as not to get any robot crap, and so there are still some pitch differences to the lead. If the lead is heavily Autotuned, I use almost none on the ghost. Real doubling almost always sounds better to me than effects, but if there are no tracks left to work with, I mix in a smidge of delay (20 - 40 ms) along with a tiny bit of M3000 "Vocal Doubler" patch. Somtimes I use the old SPX900 type pitch shift up 10 cents on left and down 8 cents on right. __________________ Steve Cruz Cruzified Music Florida http://www.songramp.com/homepage.php?userid=3788

17th December 2003, 05:16 PM	#5
blackcatdigi Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: upstate, sc Posts: 1,465	You've got to experiment and find out what is going to work best for that particular track. A few more things to try when 'hiding' FX: Chorus (in on the chorus) can really lift the vox. With verb, sometimes the ERs get in the way and muddy it up. Take them out and try longer predelays. Delays timed to the bpm of the track (usually closest to 100 ms settings works best) can thicken without adding too much obvious effect. Push it up until it's barely audible, then pull it back a smidge. Then take it out... If you can perceive a difference, it's working. Try adding some verb to just the delay's return. It's dry but it's wet. It's dry but it's wet. It's dry but it's wet... Pitch shift the lead vox L-up and R-down 5-10% mixed hard left and right under the lead. There's millions more of 'em... See what works for you. Then come back and share! __________________ Sincerely, Casey SC Digital Services Bob Olhsson wrote on 17th September 2002, 12:56 PM: "Music is being used to sort consumers rather than to entertain people."

17th December 2003, 07:23 AM	#2
e-cue Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 3,882	Using a Desper Spatializer on the returns of the AMBIENCE setting in the AMS-RMX, or the STEREO ROOM setting in the 2016 ducked in the mix works pretty good for me.

17th December 2003, 06:36 PM	#6
7rojo7 urumita Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy Posts: 1,284	Keep your vocal mic setup or recall it and put a speaker in the room somewhere, or if you like stereo vocals put up 2 vocal mics. move it all around untill it sounds good. If you need a little pitch change put something on it on the speaker side, I prefer sample and hold or square waves to sine waves for my pitch modulation and never stray more than 2 or 3 cents, with that and a little delay you can get a pretty convincing thickener. you can use 2 speakers if you want, mics in x/y or Blumlein, 1 speaker 2 mics in an A/B omni spaced pair . The only problem is that it takes a little noodling around to find the right mix. Small speakers work fine and I recommend that they're not too loud, it's the room you want, not the speakers. mic close to the speaker less verb. the most convincing reverbs for me have always been live chambers, everytime I investigate a sound I really like it ends up being one. __________________ love and light

17th December 2003, 07:43 PM	#7
jdier Gear addict Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Wisconsin, US Posts: 354	Motown Exciting Compressor Do a google search on "Exciting Compressor" The first hit is a pretty interesting article. If you use that technique but bring the compressed track even less than described, you can get a nice sound. Jim

18th December 2003, 03:31 AM	#8
natpub More cowbell! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,710	cool little article jim, thanks __________________ Vibrational Arts, Inc. Blue Sky Way Sonic Sorcery Studios Austin, Texas/Columbus, Ohio

18th December 2003, 07:11 AM	#9
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 5,248	The Motown "exciting compressor" is really just parallel compression with the compressed channel eq'd. It cleaned up a Fairchild 670's act a great deal although Lawrence Horn's use of a noise gate in addition didn't make the story. After we got LA-2as and 1176s, we started leaving off the HF eq. on the compressed channel. __________________ Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Bob's room 615 385-8051 Music Industry 2.0

18th December 2003, 07:41 AM	#10
drundall Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Torrance, CA Posts: 747	I used to use the harmonizer from an SPX90 or H3000 and roll off the high end so it sounds darker and thicker. Get the +-fine pitch as much as you can stand and keep the delay short just before it gets real "slappy". The instruments will eat up a lot of it, especially guitars. If done right it'll seem dry but give you a thicker, stereo spread vocal. __________________ Darian Rundall

18th December 2003, 02:09 PM	#11
lowswing Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 1,157	h3000 eventide machines do magic on vocals, send the vocal through aux to h3000 and mix the return back very low (and eq to taste)with the original voc. it sounds to me always very 3D and spacy without loosing clarity like often happened with most reverbs __________________ Guy Sternberg Engineer, Producer LowSwing Studios, berlin www.lowswing.de

19th December 2003, 03:02 AM	#12
faeflora Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: washington dc Posts: 2,010	boinng! great thread!

19th December 2003, 06:07 AM	#13
theom Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 434	harmonizer Yup, eventide harmonizer is what might make your day. multi pitch shift, 3 or 4 cents up on one side and down on the other, and modulate the shift a little, I eq the send killing anything under 200Hz and over 5Khz. Then bring it in till you hear it , then back off a few dB. a band passed 1/8th note slap is nice too.

17th January 2007, 09:53 PM	#14
BlueRadio Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 462	I would highly recommend any reverb with a HF roll-off. If your reverb doesn't have a roll-off, just drop an EQ with a lowpass filter on the send channel. It will warm/blend the track with the music, without all of the cheesy reverb artifacts. Short decay time, with pre-delay to taste. __________________ John Lawrence Wicker Audio Room Chicago, IL www.wickeraudioroom.com

17th January 2007, 10:30 PM	#16
DirkB Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,467	For a dry vocalsound: little bits of a couple of FX. Bit of mono delay, bit of room, bit of chorus/flange. Just enough to make things sit and move the vocal back in depth a touch. Greetings, Dirk __________________ -progress takes away what forever took to find- Dave Matthews

17th January 2007, 10:47 PM	#17
Jack Ruston Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Wimbledon Posts: 699	I quite often just use echoboy 15ips delay tweaking it for the track and mixing very low. It adds dimension and ambience without you really noticing. J

21st January 2007, 01:52 AM	#19
juicylime Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 701	There's some good info here too: http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=41662 __________________ Saved. By the buoyancy of citrus. Juicylime is seeking a Blueberry to complete his fruit themed studio. If you have one for sale PM me.

21st January 2007, 02:27 AM	#20
vernier Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 3,660	Seems the KSP8 should be able to add a dash of something that is usable. Maybe pre-delay with short plate. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/learstevens

21st January 2007, 02:56 AM	#21
picksail Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 3,314	..and people think that I'm nuts for using compressed and gated verbs on lead vocals. __________________ Stewart Cararas Seventh Level Productions Myspace Profile Discogs _________________________________ The new is necessarily abstract - Rudolf Borchadt

21st January 2007, 03:21 AM	#22
studjo Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 1,889	Stewart I think that's for totally other reasons I love the H3000 for thickening. Jo __________________ www.myspace.com/studjo1

21st January 2007, 03:55 AM	#23
mikey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 587	try a reverb with the predelay setting __________________ mikey

21st January 2007, 06:09 AM	#25
mikey Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 587	how about recording two tracks and panning them like the beatles did __________________ mikey

21st January 2007, 12:13 PM	#26
bogeyeater Gear maniac Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 268	a lo fi option: ibanez ad9 - any bucket brigade chip delay laid underneath __________________ "I can only tell you that if you get the whole lot of minims crotchets and quavers mixed up together it is like an atomic xplosion cheers cheers cheers." 'There's only an 'o' between pop and poop.' 'Recorded by champs, mixed by chimps, mastered by chumps'

21st January 2007, 12:56 PM	#27
juicylime Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 701	+1 on rolling off the highs from the verb. I also find that some verbs kind of swell up at some frequencies, it can be subtle but it's there. Finding that frequency and rolling it back a few db with a narrow Q leaves the reverb in place but with more space. Although for a big but dry sound I have decimated reverbs with EQ pulling out nearly anything of any body or that takes the ear. I started doing this while chasing Bono-esque sounds, I find it can give a panoramic feel without any of that "hi I'm the reverb and I like to be noticed" effect. __________________ Saved. By the buoyancy of citrus. Juicylime is seeking a Blueberry to complete his fruit themed studio. If you have one for sale PM me.

22nd February 2007, 02:34 PM	#28
jamieboss1 Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 144	One of my favorite tricks is to use a short delay (around an 8th note give or take) and mix it to be barely audible. Then send the delay return to a 480 A Plate. Usually a great starting point! __________________ visit jrock studios! Get Played. Get Rated. Get Paid. Noisehead.com

22nd February 2007, 02:44 PM	#29
joeq Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New York Posts: 3,879	another thing worth trying is ghosting the lead vocal melody with a spacey keyboard sound. The delay and decay of the keyboard will give the impression of reverb, but will not contain any actual vocal sound.