Drum Stereo Overhead Compression

[Alex Wyler]

How would you set a stereo compressor to compress a pair of stereo overhead drum mics to balance the toms and snare better and give a bit more energy to the overall sound? AEA R84 ribbons. I'm not using any close tom or snare mics!

Type: Feedback compression or non feedback?

Attack setting?

Release setting?

Ratio setting?


Thanks

[dokushoka]

Like all things with mixing, the answer is (drum roll)...


It depends.

Play around with some settings. See how they effect the sound. Work on it until you get what you want.

[u b k]

more energy?

one of many possible approaches:

feed forward, fastest attack, fastest release, 4:1 or 10:1, dig in with the threshold until it's gets nice and juicy. if it pumps, either raise the threshold or slow the release time.

it sounds simple, but it ain't. compression is a tough gig, and compressing overheads is one of the toughest tasks in that gig.

good luck!


gregoire
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ubk
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[lwr]

1176, all buttons in!!

[seb37000]

Originally Posted by LongWave

1176, all buttons in!!

thumbsup

[Alex Wyler]

Thanks a lot guys!

I'd love to hear more suggestions from people who use minimal micing techniques on drums and let the overheads do most of the work. How do you compress your overhead mics to even out the balance between snare/toms/hat and cymbals?

[3rd world order]

joemeek sc2.. NOT the 2.2.. one of the oldies... release at about 2 1/3.. longish attack.. make the meter pump

[thermos]

I find myself not compressing oiverheads at all these days (during tracking or mixing). Instead I crush the CRAP out of the room mics. That way real transients can get through, and you get hella energy.

If I were to compress with the portico, I'd use feedback, 3:1 fast release and attack to taste.

[edvdr76]

I had a session today where I used a pair of AKG 451's through a Vintech 1272 stereo pre then into a Summit DCL-200 tube compressor. I didn't compress the mics though, I just used the input gain to get the sound of the tubes. It's been the best OH tracks I've ever recorded.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

I'd love to hear more suggestions from people who use minimal micing techniques on drums and let the overheads do most of the work. How do you compress your overhead mics to even out the balance between snare/toms/hat and cymbals?

once you've recorded, there is very little you can do to change the balance of what's in the mics when you do minimal mic'ing. the balancing must be done before the red light comes on.

the risk of this approach is that any imbalances or crappiness in the room, kit, or playing will be captured in all their glory and sound as bad as they possibly can. the payoff is that any moments of greatness in tone and performance will be captured in all their glory and sound as good as they possibly can.

the recorderman setup is pretty foolproof and generally sounds as balanced as the room will allow. it's not terribly colored, i often like more room, but it's a painfree way to go.


gregoire
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ubk
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[The Reel Thing]

I think the Joe Meek approach mentioned before is a good way to go. You want to make the compression juicy, but inaudible, especially if you use only a couple of mics for the drumset. You got nothing to make up with for an overcompressed signal, so to not overdo it is probably a good idea. The 1176 all buttons in approach is maybe good for an effect, but throughout a song or even a record the whole thing would get on your nerves so quickly. Also quick attack won't do the job for you. Attack should be slow enough to not take away the punch of the toms. Snare and toms have a lot more SPL than cymbals, so the compressor will react to them, not to the cymbals.

Actually, if you record to tape, you probably won't need any compression on the way in, if you record at a decent level. It's far more important to have all the frequency bands (cymbals, snare, but also mids and low mids for the toms) well represented on your recording. If so, it should be no problem to work on your tom levels with a couple of EQs, gates and compressors lateron, if necessary. So it makes a lot of sense to put work into finding the best spot for your mics instead of trying to make up with compression.

If you feel you need to compress, optical would be the way to go, or something light like a Vari-Mu in compression mode.

Good luck,

Tom

[Mike Caffrey]

For overheads, I tend to use a fast attack/fast release with 1-2dB GR showing on the meter. Maybe less, because I don't think I'm getting more than 3dB of actuall GR.

I usually use a Pendulum 6386/ES-8 or Chandler LTD 2s. I've had good results with a TG-1 (in comp mode) and lately I've been using a Drawmer 1968 with an attac of with 4 or 6 and a release of 6. That's a different approach and I'll usually take a little more GR with that.

[Dog_Chao_Chao]

1968ME atack set to 4 release to 1 or 4. I compress more than 2 db though. depends on the song but 5-7 dbs is not that unusual...Ah, big knob always on, incredable difference!

[OVERNIGHT]

I've recently been putting my over heads thru my tube pre, which for me anyway is counter intuitive. I use 4051's with a sure pad on -20db so I can turn up the A-Designs MP-2 for juice. I get just a touch of tube dist but it's still pretty clean. I run my two room mics, an AT 4060 and a Royer 121, thru two seperate RNLA's fastest attack, moderately fast release, threshhold for just a little juice. I do close mic the drums but get most of the sound from these four mics. And I don't mind saying that I'm killing with drum tones lately.

[chetatkinsdiet]

Ditto to what thermos says above. Never compress the OH mics, but squash the shite out of the room mics.

m

[kats]

Another "ditto". Compressing the O/H's can be tricky work - things can get weird fast. OTOH, I like the TG1 on OHs - but I use it lightly. Sometimes it's better to fade in a crushed room mic, or use parallel comp on the drums - it seems to take less effort/skill to getting it right if your not 100% familiar with your gear.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Dog_Chao_Chao

1968ME atack set to 4 release to 1 or 4. I compress more than 2 db though. depends on the song but 5-7 dbs is not that unusual...Ah, big knob always on, incredable difference!

I love the 4/4 or the 4/1 combination. That's what I use on the stereo buss.

[Alex Wyler]

Thanks very much for all the helpful hints.

It looks like most are in agreement that compression overheads should be done lightly to cause little in the way of audio artifacts. Invisible compression to even things out is indeed the task I am going for.

3:1 or 4:1 for ratio seems like good starting points.

Some people are saying feed forward compression is best for invisibility and others are using the LTD-2 which is a feedback Neve style compressor. I'm still not sure which way I am going to go on that one. I'll have to hear the difference.

10:1 would be closer to limiting and slower attack and faster release would be required to keep the pumping action down.

I think I will try 3:1 with attack and release set around 50 ms as a starting points.


I only gots three mic-rophones so if I want stereo overheads and a FOK mic to grab the bass drum lows, I will not be able to have a room mic to squash and then blend in underneath. I would need a fourth mic and an extra preamp.

I was thinking that if I use figure of 8 ribbons for the overheads in this very large space I am recording in, they will pick up a lot of the room and then I can mix with those tracks by having the originals up on two faders and then send them along with the FOK out to a stereo compressor and squish them all hard which would bring the room component of them forward. Then I would mix the squished drums with the un squished.

Do you think there will be enough Room sound in the three "Glyn Johns" mics if they are ribbons or will a seperate mono room mic out in front of the kit say 5 feet make a better compression sound underneath than taking the "Glyn Johns" mics and squishing them paralell?

[Improv]

If you want a fun signal to squash and mangle to get your energy, try an omni pretty close to the kit. Have the drummer play and do the one-ear thing around the front of the kit (yes, it will be loud!) I usually end up somewhere just over the front lip of the kick drum, between and in front of the rack toms. You're looking for a nice blend of body from the tubs with an smooth balance of cymbals. But not too much cymbal as this will be brought out with the excessive compression you will want to do with it

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

Some people are saying feed forward compression is best for invisibility...

other way around in my experience. feed forward is more grabby, feedback is easier to make invisible.


gregoire
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ubk
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[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

Thanks very much for all the helpful hints.

It looks like most are in agreement that compression overheads should be done lightly to cause little in the way of audio artifacts. Invisible compression to even things out is indeed the task I am going for.

3:1 or 4:1 for ratio seems like good starting points.

Some people are saying feed forward compression is best for invisibility and others are using the LTD-2 which is a feedback Neve style compressor. I'm still not sure which way I am going to go on that one. I'll have to hear the difference.

10:1 would be closer to limiting and slower attack and faster release would be required to keep the pumping action down.

I think I will try 3:1 with attack and release set around 50 ms as a starting points.

For another point of view, I'll argue that if you're going to compress the overheads, do it in a way that's not tranparent. If you want transparent, don't compress.

With your starting settings, how will you know if it sounds right?

How about try 10:1 with the fastest release. Set the threshold low enough that it's compressing adn then play with the attack until it sounds good. Then vary your threshold and ratio.

Also, figure out how to set it wrong. Set it so teh cymbals get hyper washy and the snare has no crack. Then when that happens by accident, you'll know how to fix it.

One difficult thing is that the drummer will not play at the recording level no matter what you say when you're getting sounds. Your printed sounds are going to be more compressed than what you heard when setting them.

[Jules]

Favorite for me is to get the drummer to play along to the song and to custom set up drums compressors for the songs tempo.. I over crank the compressors, get them to pump and breath like crazy.. then back them off. That way I feel the attack times and release times wont be 'working against me' and will be sympathetic to the music.

To me one of the biggest deals with drum compression is "cymbal sustain" drummers just seem to love it when their cymbal hits last a long, luxurious amount of time.. Often to them, that's what make it 'sound like a record' - all compression on a kit conspires to add to this sustain on cymbals.. and its another good reason to monkey with compression attack & release settings to the drummer playing the tune, in the correct tempo...

That's not all an engineer is listening for on drum compression when setting up of course, in addition there is

Undersnare signal / grace note audibility - can be raised with compression
Tom sustain - can be lengthened by compression
"Wet fish slap" sound on kick (and sometimes snare) - caused by compression and handy to get kick's audible on small radio / tv speakers
And general transient 'shock' control

Those are some of the 'goals' IMHO

Some of the negatives an engineer is looking out for is

Recording an over processed sound that cant be 'undone'
Hi hat & cymbals coming in on every mic - exaggerated by compression
Tom rattle and unwanted sympathetic resonance being increased by compression
Unwanted room tone volume being increased as a result of over compression
The players dynamics being totally lost - due to over compression

Engineers knowing that the project will be mixed by someone else are often extra wary of "over doing it" with compression and as a basic professional courtesy to the next engineer on the project, leave some dynamic range for them to treat as they prefer.

[tonymite]

Originally Posted by Alex Wyler

How would you set a stereo compressor to compress a pair of stereo overhead drum mics to balance the toms and snare better and give a bit more energy to the overall sound? AEA R84 ribbons. I'm not using any close tom or snare mics!

Type: Feedback compression or non feedback?

Attack setting?

Release setting?

Ratio setting?


Thanks

I start by taking the unit out of its box ... then I patch it into a 20,000-way active crossover to fine tune which frequencies wil be triggering the gain reduction circuit and i then run a paralel compressor alongside each band that's split in the 20,000-way x-over.

[dapinkobo]

i find if i dont compress the overheads/room mics at all it gives a much more open sound. then mangle the close mics for extra punch!

[doorknocker]

I tend to leave the OHs uncompressed but compress the living daylights out of the FOK mic. Once in a while, if it makes musical sense, I compress the OHs ITB. The FOK compression on the other hand is adding a lot of drive and punch to the drums and that's why I print it like that.
That's my Pro Tools approach at the moment.

I must also say that using the Chandler TG-2 on OHs -with the input quite high- adds enough 'preamp compression' for my taste. Kick/Snare usually get just a tad of 160VU.

Originally Posted by Jules

Undersnare signal / grace note audibility - can be raised with compression

A very important point, I think. I do this a lot, sometimes without and sometimes with a lot of compression.

[MS1]

I agree with the earlier posts... don't compress the OH, but crush the room mics...

I usually track OH with my SF-12 through a Focusrite ISA428... then use a either one or two Coles 4038's through a TAB V372 for room. In mixdown I usually KILL the room mic(s) with a distressor. Set the attack and release so that it is pumping, get the pumping to breathe in time with the snare, then back it off. One other thing I will do is to mult all of the drums except the room mics to a stereo bus, and hit them with an API 2500. Make them breathe a bit as descibed before, then just blend the stereo bus back in just under original tracks. Gate the close mics (if your using) to clean up a bit... should be nice and punchy by now!

Have fun!

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by MS1

I agree with the earlier posts... don't compress the OH, but crush the room mics...

What really kills a drum sound is to mix together "overheads" and "room mikes." The fewer mikes you use, the better off you'll be.

As for the OP's question, he didn't specify what kind of "balance" issue exists between the toms and the snare. Is one louder than the other? If so, which? In any case, the solution is to get the drummer to balance them - that's his job. If he can't perform that job, then you have to move the microphone(s) to achieve a better balance. That's your job. The compressor's job *can* be to enhance the attack or the decay (or both) on the drum sounds, maybe add some cohesion, in addition to controlling overall dynamics.

On my compressor (RMS755 Super Stereo), you do this typically by starting with a very slow attack time and a very fast release time. You can deviate from there to shave off a bit of transient, or reduce the sustain. The hi-pass filter in the sidechain can be used to control the compressor's reaction to low-end. This is typically used to prevent pumping on the kick drum, but it can also be very effective on the floor tom. Start with a low ratio, and only increase it as much as necessary - too high a ratio can often lead to more distortion, and you end up having to back off on other controls to tame it. I generally achieve the desired amount of gain reduction by using the threshold control moreso than the ratio control.

[robot gigante]

I like to compress both OH's (lightly with a Vari-Mu) and room mics (mashed with Spectrasonics 610- ka blammo!).

Both I like to have pumping in time with the music. And as mentioned, the balance should come from the drummer.