Crap meaning good

[entropy]

Just to go against the grain here (in our pursuit of sonic excellence), some of my sounding favourite albums sound like they were mixed by Helen Kellar.

a few that spring to mind immediatley are:

Half Man Half Buscuit, back in the D H S S
Wu Tang, 36 chambers
Crass (any album really)

a little removed from that (in that it was mixed by someone other than Helen. in fact, it sounds excellent in it's grubbiness)

Jesus and Mary Chain, physco candy

Anyways, do any of you have other shit/offense sounding albums that are brilliant because of the poor quality production?

[entropy]

jus' to clarify on the jesus and mary chain issue:

i think it's brilliantly engineered but at the time, really was different in terms of levels and placement, a lot of people didn't like because of that but i think it paved the way for likes of Ride and that whole Creation guitar noise thing......

[TravisE]

Yeah, there are lots of great albums that aren't "slick" by alot of people's standards. I really think it's important that the recording itself portrays the same mood and image that the music does. If the band is someone like...say, Weezer ,(though I'm not a huge fan) it would be rather strange for their album to sound like a Celine Dion record...which should never have been made in the first place.

While, as I said, I'm not a huge fan of Weezer, the Pinkerton album's production is inspiring to say the least

[Saucyjack]

A few that come to mind

Pavement-Slanted and Enchanted
GBV-Bee Thousand,Alien Lanes
Most Velvet Undeground
Stooges

[e-cue]

Dead Kennedy's - Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables - Love the echopled guitar
Misfits - Evilive - probably the worst sounding live record ever
Minor Threat - Discography - Raw guitar, 'tispy' snares
Atari Teenage Riot - Burn Berlin Burn - Bit reduced lo fi (The follow up 60 second wipe out is among one of my favorite enfineered records)
Wu Tang Clan - 36 Chambers - Birthplace of the term "grimey" in my vocabulary
Operation Ivy - Energy - guitar buzzes, hums, 'mistakes' all over (one of my favorite records)

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

entropy...

them creation bands kiked ass hard.. i LOVE Ride, MBV.. which was mixed by Kevin and would have been an even more awesome album if it was mixed by Alan Moulder who seeded to be the inhopuse producer/engineer of creation bands..

The frist SWERVEDRIVER album 'Raise' was not the best sonically but carried the message home that there was a kik ass UK rock band that drove and played like madmen.

Saucy Jack.. totally agree on the Pavement tip but after that albumt he comparison between it and the next one, crooked crooked rain, there is another world of sonic excellence. They had lost the lofi aestheic which had its charm but ultimately imho got in the way of a cool band with great songs.

Ecue.. ATR gives new menaing to digital distortion!

Beck ' one foot in the grave'

Cody Chestnut 'The headphone masterpiece'.. wikid!

Nirvana 'Bleach'.. sludge any one.. th emurky tone of that record suits SO well it not funny.. the difference between that and Nevermind in indescribable on so many different levels..

Cheers
Wiggy

[Jules]

Exile on mains St - Stones
Any - Velvet Underground

Interesting topic, there is a WHOLE lot of stuff out there, bands I call Tape Op bands that have a whole different set of quality maxims...

Mercury Rev for example - often sound like a bizarre collage of sounds put together in rough demo form..

Built to Spill - use a weird distant washy room sound on their drums

I think for some of these acts real engineering philosophys are brought to bear on productions... (like refusing to compress or eq, or perhaps punch in to fix mistakes) And I think that is somehow apreciated by the fans of the genre.

"Crappy" is kind of built in, to some indie / alternative bands, the roots of course usually stem from the Velvet Underground...

It's allways a personal judgement call for the listener to decide if crappy = good or crappy = bad.

I find The strokes delightfully crappy, I have a problem with the White Stripes brand of crappy, I find it too calculated somehow or 'not to my taste'...

But its all down to personal taste

[BrianK]

I have a BIG recommendation for everyone: If you can find CD's by PRICK (The Puppet, or The Wreckard) give it a try. It is the only project I've ever heard that stradlles old pop/rock quality and songs with ear-bleeding sonics. While many people can shatter your ears, he also can mix it with something timid and beautiful just as honestly. Some songs are just piano and vocal, others are direct clipped guitar mixed way too loud and crappy digital distortion vocals, PLUS the songs are great. It's too hard to describe - maybe Bowie, Sparks, Slayer, Kinks, Eno, NIN, Gabriel, Monkees, Plunderphonics,....

Prick now sounds like Sgt Pepper must have sounded in 1967. It is REALLY amazing music. When I first heard it, I thought it was too "out" and now it sounds pretty normal. PLEASE go look for it...

[ExistanceMusic]

C'mon, everything the Beastie Boys have ever done!! (Except Hello Nasty and In Sound..) Love the gritty, messy samples and distorted to F**K vocals!

Check Skills to Pay the Bills, or Bohdravista Vow for perfect examples of what I mean.

[ttauri]

Originally posted by entropy
jus' to clarify on the jesus and mary chain issue:

i think it's brilliantly engineered but at the time, really was different in terms of levels and placement, a lot of people didn't like because of that but i think it paved the way for likes of Ride and that whole Creation guitar noise thing......

I was just talking with a friend about Psychocandy a few days ago and expressing my awe at how on-the-ball it sounds. Like, you can tell instantly that it isn't that way by accident or ineptitude. S'really focussed as far as nailing the elements just right for the vibe they want. Impressive.

One of my favorite favorite favorite musical items is this mixtape by DJ Babu & Kan Kick called Comprehension/Warped Mind (each has their own side). Very 4-track cassette. Muffled, hissy, etc. But they just nail a vibe (especially Kan Kick) that works great with the sonic deficiencies.

A lot of the old reggae I like (Clocktower, Trojan, etc) can get pretty ugly by the criteria of high end AEing of any era but wow it's beautiful stuff to me.

Also: old Smith & Mighty joints. Apparently they just used their DJ sound system speakers to monitor everything. Somewhere before the last album, they put together more modern project studio gear, and the vibe really disappeared.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[ttauri]

Another really interesting thing to me is Texas rap--there's stuff that just sounds so poor at normal speed, but then it gets screwed (played and cut-up real slowed down, like playing a 45 on 33--so-called because of DJ Screw who originated the style), and sounds brilliant.

Peece,
T. Tauri

[Neddy Seagoon]

Almost anything produced by Tom Dowd. A great guy, legend...etc. etc. but the worst producer of some of the greatest music ever to hit hot wax. Overloaded, distorted vocals, odd stereo placement and really bad tape edits (who can forget the AOR classic "..ayla" by Derek and the Dominos) seemed to be his M.O. but probably half of my desert island discs would have is name on them. He really got the artist to produce which is what it's all (or should be) about.

Velvet Underground, Live at Max's Kansas City.
Coltrane, Village Vanguard recordings.
Kings of Leon, Youth and Young Manhood.

Re. Indie Lo Fi/Tape Op. crowd - how much is an intentional attempt to push boundaries, experiment etc. and how much is lack of decent kit, knowledge, experience et al?
"Polished" "Professional" are almost dirty words these days. To the extent that the very contrived "demoesque" quality of The White Stripes is seen - by the media at least - as an exciting new development, a breath of fresh air! Bottom line, for me anyway, sometimes crap is just crap.

[Kris]

Operation Ivy... I love those guys... where are they now? A buddy of mine does an Operation Ivy side project...

[BattleAngel]

There's faux-demo and then there is lo-fi. The Strokes, White Stripes, are rediculous. That stuff, the new Metallica album, etc. is so absolutely rediculous- it all sounds like a "garage band" plug in.

There is something to be said for something that isn't "polished" per se. I love the sound of In Utero (I know many hate it), and groups like The Rachel's have a really wonderful sound. I think I tend to go for sounds that are just authentic and spontaneous sounding, with a lot of depth and richness when possible and appropriate. And though I'm not a great engineer, I like to do a lot of that myself when I can, and my inventiveness shows (I think) but so does my lack of real schooling.

I think the problem with the fake lo-fi stuff is that it's guys with schooling who are trying to sound like they don't. And that's just rediculous =P

[e-cue]

Originally posted by Kris
Operation Ivy... I love those guys... where are they now? A buddy of mine does an Operation Ivy side project...

Well besides the Rancid offspring, the ex lead singer is in Common Rider. They have some incredible songs, and some that are kinda lackluster.

[entropy]

C'mon, everything the Beastie Boys have ever done!! (Except Hello Nasty and In Sound..) Love the gritty, messy samples and distorted to F**K vocals!

Check Skills to Pay the Bills, or Bohdravista Vow for perfect examples of what I mean.

I gotta disagree Jesse. I think Mario C's engineering is spot on. Yes they like lo-fi elements within the mix but his levels and placement are always superb.... you wouldn't say the distorted to **** vocals are there because he couldn't work out how to get decent vocal level to tape.

Jus' back to the Jesus and Mary Chain thing. I haven't listened to the album in a while (I'll do it tonight) but for me, that album really changed the whole mix dynamic. I talked to God (Allan Moulder) about this and he agreed that it changed the whole Indie scene allowing the likes of MBV, Ride and Trent Reznor a whole new mix perspective.

I've had this discussion with others in terms of hip hop. My jaded memory of what proper old skool sounded like back in the day was the phatness of the bass end. So now we have MONSTA bass end but if you go back and listen those early beats, yes they were bigger than what had preceded but they're nothing like where we're at today.

BrianK, yes, I'm taking that recommendation and searching out Prick. Cheers

[BrianK]

<<BrianK, yes, I'm taking that recommendation and searching out Prick. Cheers>>

Please let us know what you think here.

White Stripes - if you listen to that first single LOUD - it is an excellent recording, ala "Highway to Hell", dry, punchy, realistic tones. Not very fancy, but good sound. That kick is REALLY solid. Not garage-y at all.

[ExistanceMusic]

Originally posted by entropy
I gotta disagree Jesse. I think Mario C's engineering is spot on. Yes they like lo-fi elements within the mix but his levels and placement are always superb.... you wouldn't say the distorted to **** vocals are there because he couldn't work out how to get decent vocal level to tape.

Ahh, I think you misunderstood me, probably because I misundrestood the topic- Everything that's messed up on BB tracks is meant to be messed up, and they've done it so well, and so spot on, that it sounds amazing, even though it's "messed up".
Which is what I love about those production values.

[David Herbert]

Beastie Boys Check Your Head is one of my reference CDs. Mindblowing.

Jules,
Glad to see you are on to Built to Spill, one of my all time favorites.

I saw Sleater-Kinney at the Showbox in Seattle on Saturday night, which is kind of like going to see the Beatles at The Cavern in Liverpool (ie. hometurf). Now there is a band that RAWKS. The production values have slowly improved for them album to album, but even "One Beat" had a lo-fi charm. I hope they never end up with somebody that makes them sound like Def Leppard.
Modest Mouse "Lonesome Crowded West", there is another album that makes you want to get drunk and decorate the house with Christmas lights. It wouldn't sound quite as special if it was polished.
David

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

David.. Sleater Kinney were out here recently and they were good but i gota say i couild name 5 local bands that would slay their asses on any given night.. perhaps i saw them on an off night?

But i didnt mind thier last album at all.. Doe Tapeop Larry still reocrd them?

Cheers
Wiggy