Recording a metalcore band this week..advice?

[jangoux]

Hello everyone,

This week I'll be recording a metalcore band on the lines of Kill Switch Engage, All that Remains, etc. I am excited to record this band but i am seeking a little advice about one thing : guitar gain. This band has a couple of very good guitar players, but one of them may be a PITA regarding his guitar tone. Aside from him using a Sans Amp GT2, which no matter what i hate the tone, he is the kind of guy who will not accept recording with less gain than what he usually plays live. I think I can convince him of at least diminishing his gain a little bit, but then he may argue one thing that i am seeing a lot with guitar players that come to record here : The unability to do pinch harmonics with less gain than usual. How would you handle this situation ? His music has A LOT of pinch harmonics. What's your advice on handling the guy personality x those pinch harmonics x recording tone ?

Not accepting this band is not a solution because it's one of the new good bands of my city and making a good record of them would be great marketing for me.

Ivan

[studio825]

Ive have many core metal bands here and the pinches where everywhere,If the gtr player cant do a pinch harmonic at low gain than he or she is not doing them properly.I track all scratch gtr tracks thru my line 6 pod and no one hes ever had a problem doing pinch harms>and they are direct.Insist on recording at low gain you are the engineer not the soundman.Take control of the situation and be firm.Tell them in the best interests of the recording.

[PoorGlory]

Record him with his Sansamp GT2 (which I also think sounds like shit... although I will run vocals into it for effect sometimes), and simultaneously do it your way. Play them back and A/B them for him and see what he says. Theres nothing wrong with recording guitar at high gain, just make sure your midrange is nice and strong going in.

[xhavepatiencex]

I wouldnt use a sansamp, that just sounds like a really bad idea. Also Ive noticed many guitar players... especially the ones playing that kind of music... more or less dont understand how to use an amp or what a guitar should even sound like.. i hate to be rude sorry.. have them turn the pre amp gain down and crank the master up so its really loud and dont scoop the mids, because... the guitar is an instrument which lines in the midrange why would anyone want to turn that down?? play it for them and if you can try to play it for them in the context of the rest of the music. I have a thing with guitar tone and I am always a stick in the mud about it, but the bands i record are always happy once everything is done and mixed and most the time they start setting up their amps the way we recorded them.

[Rufuss Sewell]

I deal with this kind of music a lot. Here are some basic things that will help them sound more like Kill Switch Engage.

1. Go through the song part by part and program a click track that matches the tempo and meter of each part.

2. Have them record scratch guitar and bass tracks to that click track. Maybe even a scratch vocal.

3. Have the drummer record to the scratch tracks with the click nice and loud.

4. After you record the drums quantize the fvck out of them. Most use samples, but I prefer the real deal, raw and in your face. If it's not sounding right, go for samples. Lord knows Kill Switch Engage does.

5. Go back and re-record the guitars with REAL amps like Mesa Rectifier, 5150, Krank, Mark IV, Marshall JCM, Engl, whatever. Doesn't really matter as long as it's a decent tube amp and not a sans amp or pod or any other line-in deal, although getting a dry signal is always good for re-amping possibilities.)

6. Have the guitarist and the amp head both in the control room when you record. Keep the cab in the live room.

7. Now after you've gotten a decent mic position (I like blending a 57 with a 414) sit there with the guitarist and dial in a sound IN THE CONTROL ROOM. That way you guys will both be happy with the result. You can fine tune the gain to pinch ratio right there.

8. Record the bass and vocals. Mix the kick and snare way too loud so that when the mastering engineer squashes the fvck out of it you don't completely lose them.

Good luck! This is probably the hardest type of music to mix... not because it's really that hard... just because you need to be a really good musician to play this kind of music, and most of these guys aren't up for the task... so you have to fix them.

[Methlab]

^^^^

agreed...especially #8 is key.

Also, reamp if they like a lot of gain when they track. Because you will not have good tones to mix with if you don't. The Mesa Boogie Dual Rec and the 5150 layered would be a very nice metalcore combo to reamp with.

[jangoux]

Originally Posted by Rufuss Sewell

I deal with this kind of music a lot. Here are some basic things that will help them sound more like Kill Switch Engage.

1. Go through the song part by part and program a click track that matches the tempo and meter of each part.

2. Have them record scratch guitar and bass tracks to that click track. Maybe even a scratch vocal.

3. Have the drummer record to the scratch tracks with the click nice and loud.

The drummer can't record to a click ... that's my biggest worry mostly because of the double bass pedal he uses. Editing out of sync bass drums is a PITA.

5. Go back and re-record the guitars with REAL amps like Mesa Rectifier, 5150, Krank, Mark IV, Marshall JCM, Engl, whatever. Doesn't really matter as long as it's a decent tube amp and not a sans amp or pod or any other line-in deal, although getting a dry signal is always good for re-amping possibilities.)

6. Have the guitarist and the amp head both in the control room when you record. Keep the cab in the live room.

7. Now after you've gotten a decent mic position (I like blending a 57 with a 414) sit there with the guitarist and dial in a sound IN THE CONTROL ROOM. That way you guys will both be happy with the result. You can fine tune the gain to pinch ratio right there.

He wants to use his Sans AMp on my Guitar head. Even then, i think it sounds like crap. They''ll also rent a 5150 head, which is interesting.


This week I am finish a job for a heavy metal band. Nice songs, nice riff, but exactly the problems described here : lots of out of sync bass drums, dirty guitar playing (the guy is a guitar teacher and couldnt even tighly record two guitar tracks) and a terrible cheap sound.

[madcowvt]

Originally Posted by jangoux

The drummer can't record to a click ... that's my biggest worry mostly because of the double bass pedal he uses. Editing out of sync bass drums is a PITA.



He wants to use his Sans AMp on my Guitar head. Even then, i think it sounds like crap. They''ll also rent a 5150 head, which is interesting.


This week I am finish a job for a heavy metal band. Nice songs, nice riff, but exactly the problems described here : lots of out of sync bass drums, dirty guitar playing (the guy is a guitar teacher and couldnt even tighly record two guitar tracks) and a terrible cheap sound.

If the drummer cannot record to a click you may have a lot of work to do while mixing.
As said above.. try to talk the guitarist into using a good tube head and I almost ALWAYS run a maxxon OD pedal in front of the head. Not only does this clean up and tighten the low end but also makes pinch harmonics jump outa the amp.

As also said above... i use a 57 and at4033, blend to taste.

If he wants to use the sans amp thing well, make sure to tell him up front that "It is what it is". Im almost certain it will sound thin and floppy on the low end no matter what. my .02

[Methlab]

if the drummer cant play to a click, id almost go so far as to get someone who could because you are in for a world of pain. Metalcore is beatdetectived to the grid hard. The only time it isnt is when the drummer is awesome and doesn't need it (rare).

If they bring in a 5150, id use that almost exclusively because it is one of the top heads out there for this genre.

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by Methlab

if the drummer cant play to a click, id almost go so far as to get someone who could because you are in for a world of pain. Metalcore is beatdetectived to the grid hard. The only time it isnt is when the drummer is awesome and doesn't need it (rare).

If they bring in a 5150, id use that almost exclusively because it is one of the top heads out there for this genre.

question regarding beat detective: is it possible to use this on pro tools LE systems? i think you can only use BD on one track at a time (versus the 8+ for drums) in LE, so is there a workaround or am i screwed?

[tubedude]

I've been having the band come in and record scratch tracks 3 weeks early and leaving with a click/scratch track CD to give to the drummer to practice to. They gotta learn, and better on thier time than mine.

[JDunkley]

Id let him record with the sansamp if he really insists on it. But id also take a clean DI to reamp it later on and see what he prefers once youve sat it in the mix.

[bound]

Originally Posted by nerogtr

question regarding beat detective: is it possible to use this on pro tools LE systems? i think you can only use BD on one track at a time (versus the 8+ for drums) in LE, so is there a workaround or am i screwed?

If the drummer can't record to click, and your beat detective works only on one track at a time, then you are royally boned my friend. Seriously, is there nothing you can do to convince the drummer of the benefits of a click track? Maybe postpone the recording a week or two and have him practicing to a click track?

[Torwald]

Or, you could always get the music production toolkit for LE. If I'm not wrong, it includes multi track BD...

BTW, I, too, dislike the sansamp. I'd go for almost 100% 5150 if I had the chance! Also, I'd try a 421 on the cab; it adds a nice warmth to the otherwise pretty sharp sound of a 57. Very unconventional, huh?

[dropblacksky]

Yup...if you want multitrack BD you need to get the music production toolkit. It's only $500 so it's not too bad, you get 48 tracks instead of 32 as well.

I would go ahead and let him use the sansamp, then do some layering with the 5150 with different tones. A good, thick metal tone needs to be layered anyway. Then you can use as little of the sansamp track as you want in the mixdown....who knows, you may find it adds something in the context of several tracks of layered guitars. Also, as mentioned earlier, take a DI'd dry signal as well. Anytime a guitarist comes in with junk gear or bad-tone-but-too-stubborn-to-change-it-disease I have that dry track that I can reamp or even use Amplitube (if reamping isn't possible).

The click thing is tough. I've pulled the click on several sessions where it was just killing the feel....then again, if you're gonna grid him anyway, then feel isn't really that much of a consideration.

[GearHunter]

Record the drums with 3 mics.

[treymonfauntre]

i'm surprised how many people record to a click. i never do it and have never ever had a problem.

[DeathMonkey]

I record a lot of guitarists doing metal or hardcore, and the solution I have found for this sort of thing is to run one setup that sounds like "their tone" on one track, and then set up an amp the way I want on another, and only give them the first one in the headphones. That way they are playing to a predictable (for them) guitar sound, and you can get a better performance than if he is fighting the guitar sound.

As a guitarist myself, I know that comfort and predictability in the amp response and tone are key to getting a good performance. The more unfamiliar I am with the sound or guitar, the less likely I am to really throw down. So for others, I usually use a POD direct to get a big heavy sound they enjoy playing with, and run that as the headphone/monitor sound, then mike an amp or two in the next room.

The 5150/Recto combo is THE sound of metalcore. I prefer the Peavey XXX to either of those, myself, especially when mixed with an amp with nice mids (I hate Peavey mids), like a Bogner Uberschall.

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by bound

If the drummer can't record to click, and your beat detective works only on one track at a time, then you are royally boned my friend. Seriously, is there nothing you can do to convince the drummer of the benefits of a click track? Maybe postpone the recording a week or two and have him practicing to a click track?

haha amen. i've never actually used beat detective before, but i insist the drummer plays to a click anyway (in metal / hardcore at least) because it usually invokes a much tighter performance, which is key in this type of music. i always tell the drummer weeks before the session to PRACTICE TO A CLICK! go figure, most of them come into the studio with the "of course i can, duh" attitude, and when it comes down to actually recording to the click they realize its a challenge for them. i had one drummer who thought i was going to be in over my head "because of the complicated time changes in the songs", and figured he wouldn't need to play to a click. he was def suprised when I had a tempo map all laid out after about 20-30 minutes and gave him a loud ass click in his headphones (hey, i warned him...). go figure- he couldn't do it, and we had to record with no click.

i think im going to pick up the music production toolkit. seems like a worthwhile investment.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by treymonfauntre

i'm surprised how many people record to a click. i never do it and have never ever had a problem.

yeah a click is an 80's thing. Id rather here bad sounding out of time drums
like 99% of the bands out now

[nerogtr]

Originally Posted by allencollins

yeah a click is an 80's thing. Id rather here bad sounding out of time drums
like 99% of the bands out now

i use a click for about half my sessions (mostly because the other half of the drummers cant do it), and i find that the performance is usually more solid as a result as long as the drummer is comfortable with the click. some drummers start playing awkwardly to a click, which is when i throw it out. i've never "beat-detectived" drums before, so my goal isn't to create perfect drums, but using a click gives the whole band a solid time reference which is pretty important in metal / hardcore recordings. its all about what is going to get the best sound for a band. i wont even bother trying with the click for a jam band and most alt rock bands. i did, however, have good results with a "foo fighters-ish" band with a click. the click is a tool, it works sometimes, sometimes not. w/e works.

[wolf9309]

Originally Posted by JDunkley

Id let him record with the sansamp if he really insists on it. But id also take a clean DI to reamp it later on and see what he prefers once youve sat it in the mix.

Definitely the way to go IMO