im sick of ptle's bad sound, need other options/suggestions

[maskedman72]

ok, so i have been posting about various things related to this for a while now.

so here is the deal. i ditched all of my old gear that i was getting good sounds with (mackie 8-buss, mdr recorder with slutty pres) and got a ptle 002 rig with a mytek stereo adc. my pres are 2 ltd-1's. i have been on this rig for 3 years now and i have not done a single thing that sounds good to me. it all just sucks. when i put on old mixes i did on my old gear it drives me insane cause i am not even getting close to it. even though i know the mackie mdr and 24-8 arent the best things on earth i was getting sounds that were real and fat with nice imaging. now i am 100% itb and i do love it for obvious reasons, but the sound quality is just pure hell. everything sounds thin and weak and non exciting. the low end isnt there either. and dont get me started on plugins. total recall is awesome but what i had to sacrifice for it wasnt worth it. but enough of that. i am asking you all to help me in this situation to get back on track to better sounds.

i am considering getting a ghost and an hd24xr and grabbing a fireport and doing all of my tracking the old way than dumping to ptle for editing than dumping back to the hd24 for mixing through the ghost. i am open to all suggestions. i do hate to lose the automation and recall.

if you were in my shoes what would you do?

$ wise i am looking at about 5k for this.

thanks!

-jay

[dtucker]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

i am considering getting a ghost and an hd24xr and grabbing a fireport and doing all of my tracking the old way than dumping to ptle for editing than dumping back to the hd24 for mixing through the ghost. i am open to all suggestions. i do hate to lose the automation and recall.

This, to me, is where your logic fails you. If what you're putting into PTLE is not satisfactory to your ears why would go through the trouble of tracking in another format then dump to PTLE for editing? It makes no sense. If your PTLE setup isn't working for you during tracking what difference do you think you'll achieve by tracking in another format then dumping to the format you have issues with (PTLE)?

Work in the environment that makes you most comfortable, or which sounds best to you. Trust your ears!

[Shandy]

I've spent enough time behind a Mackie 8-bus to believe that in no possible way will your sound improve by putting that beast back into the equation.

If your signal is thin and weak, I think the first place to look is your microphone and preamp setup. ProTools itself won't take the low end out of your sound, it just records what it's given, like your MDR or the HD24. You mentioned previously having slutty pre's... that's what your signal chain is missing.

Yes, in my experience a Ghost will sound better than the Mackie, but I think the real question here is why did you spend 3 years recording on a rig that you couldn't get good sounds with?

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by dtucker

This, to me, is where your logic fails you. If what you're putting into PTLE is not satisfactory to your ears why would go through the trouble of tracking in another format then dump to PTLE for editing? It makes no sense. If your PTLE setup isn't working for you during tracking what difference do you think you'll achieve by tracking in another format then dumping to the format you have issues with (PTLE)?

Work in the environment that makes you most comfortable, or which sounds best to you. Trust your ears!

my plan was to just use ptle for editing than dump everything back into the hd24 and mix on the console.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

my plan was to just use ptle for editing than dump everything back into the hd24 and mix on the console.

if you do, why not look at the Toft ATB? If you dont like it more than a Mackie you can change a few chips to taste.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by Shandy

I've spent enough time behind a Mackie 8-bus to believe that in no possible way will your sound improve by putting that beast back into the equation.

If your signal is thin and weak, I think the first place to look is your microphone and preamp setup. ProTools itself won't take the low end out of your sound, it just records what it's given, like your MDR or the HD24. You mentioned previously having slutty pre's... that's what your signal chain is missing.

Yes, in my experience a Ghost will sound better than the Mackie, but I think the real question here is why did you spend 3 years recording on a rig that you couldn't get good sounds with?

why 3 years?, cause i have been pondering what direction to go in and the $$ factor. my clients have never complained. they are all happy with what i am turning out for them but i am not.

my signal chain isnt missing the slutty pres, im running 2 chandler ltd-1's.

perhaps ptle's summing is the problem that i am hearing? i wouldnt know, i have never heard an le rig with otb summing in contrast.

i am also looking at a toft atb with the adat card and use pt as a tape machine.

i really dont know, there are so many things out there.

a dmx r100 with pyramix would be the ideal ticket if i were rich.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by lucey

if you do, why not look at the Toft ATB? If you dont like it more than a Mackie you can change a few chips to taste.

yea i am interested in the atb but i dont think they are even shipping as of yet are they?

i would bet the toft would sound far better than a mackie, what do you mean by change a few chips?

[lucey]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

yea i am interested in the atb but i dont think they are even shipping as of yet are they?

i would bet the toft would sound far better than a mackie, what do you mean by change a few chips?

not shipping yet, but I'll bet a couple of the Pilot desks shipping in 3 weeks or so will be available second hand. It has the ICs socketed for easy change to other options. so the pres, eq, and summing chips can be tweaked to taste.

[AMIEL]

Are u using the same monitors? the same recording and control room?
are u using the same mic preamps and same mics?

If the answer is no....so I will check the change before blaming to Protools.
Any change in these element would make your sound sooo different.

also I don't think Digi 02 is so bad that will sound like crap.

Check what is different now beside the mackie and the hd24 ......maybe there is the answer!!!

[Watersound]

I too recently was startled to find that my mixes/recordings from 6 years ago prior to going ITB were far superior. I don't think it's because digital summing or ITB isn't as good sounding, it's the approach that is so limiting. For me, being hands on is everything, and I don't need to do recalls so I'm back to old school. I got a Ghost modded by Creation Audio and I am ready with 24 outputs w/Apogee convertors to do things like I used to with an analog board. If you can accept the idea of not having instant recall, then go for it, you will be much more satisfied in the end. To me, there are just way too many barriers when doing everything in the computer and you lose that fast instinct of grabbing an eq or fader as opposed to pulling up pages on the screen, tweaking w/mouse, etc...and control surfaces don't cut it compared to the analog stuff...IMHO. The biggest loss for me is trying to apply reverb plug-ins as opposed to having real dedicated Aux sends and returns at my finger tips in the analog domain. There is just so much more glue that you can achieve using fx with an analog board. Anyways, good luck with whichever road you choose, and certainly great music can be made either way.

[toolskid]

with the utmost respect( and I think you'll remember we've had some friendly exchanges in the past), its not the rig....

its just the way you're rocking it. It may be that the way you have to work ITB is just not suited to your vibe AT ALL. There is nothing wrong with this man! Maybe look at a Toft board. I've had a play on one very recently, and its a serious piece of kit (also made by a lovely chap to boot!)

Maybe we can continue this in PM/ ichat if you fancy!

All the very best man

Em

[Gerax]

As it's been suggested above, if you love total recall and deep editing capabilities afforded by PTLE (like other DAWs) but think you're missing something with your mix final sound try to take an hybrid approach by getting a set of hi quality 8ch conversion (like Apogee Rosetta 800, RME ADI-8 PRO or the likes): then use 16 channels to go to a summing mixer or small format high quality console. I experienced the same thing you are talking about: my mixes I made on an analog board (48ch Trident Vector 432) with analog outboard (Urei, Neve, 1176, LA2A, Drawmer, SSL, Lexicon, TC, Eventide) when I still was an assistant had a beef and depth and punch that I miss in my ITB mix on PT right now, and I belive my mixing skills have grown considerably in these 6 years as an independent...
Fortunately, we have a Dangerous 2 Buss LT hooked up to the PT rig (via Apogee and RME converters) at the studio I'm partner with...and that makes a big difference, but you have to mix "thru it", I mean you have to build your mix on it right from the beginning, you won't hear a noticeable difference by taking an ITB mix and putting it thru a summing unit...all the levelling, panning EQing etc. has already been decided upon the ITB mixer sound.

Hope this helps

L.G.

[AMIEL]

the best thing u can do is to use Protools basicly as the tape recorders, bring back all the channels you can in to a console and insert your compressors, eq etc and use your processor in the Aux of your console..i guess to start 16 tracks in the console will be good.

8 tracks or more for drums....2 of vocals,bass, 2 of guitars, 2tereo keys,2 overything else.....etc ....i think u can start using the rest of the processing in the box and having an hybrid will use the best of both worlds!!! so now u can do the editing at the computer!

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Shandy

I've spent enough time behind a Mackie 8-bus to believe that in no possible way will your sound improve by putting that beast back into the equation.

Me too. Eck!

[zboy2854]

I suspect that part of the problem is that you simply haven't mastered the intricacies of working ITB to get the optimal results. How you gain stage ITB, for instance, is REALLY important. There should be no reason why working and mixing with PT should sound small or inferior, but it does require certain considerations when working ITB that you wouldn't otherwise consider if working on an analog console with outboard gear.

In any case, if you're more comfortable with the analog setup, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't blame the bad sound on PT.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

Are u using the same monitors? the same recording and control room?
are u using the same mic preamps and same mics?

If the answer is no....so I will check the change before blaming to Protools.
Any change in these element would make your sound sooo different.

also I don't think Digi 02 is so bad that will sound like crap.

Check what is different now beside the mackie and the hd24 ......maybe there is the answer!!!

everything is exactly the same. nothing at all has changed. i simply swapped the 8 buss and mdr for a oo2 and a mytel adc. otherwise its all the same.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by AMIEL

the best thing u can do is to use Protools basicly as the tape recorders, bring back all the channels you can in to a console and insert your compressors, eq etc and use your processor in the Aux of your console..i guess to start 16 tracks in the console will be good.

8 tracks or more for drums....2 of vocals,bass, 2 of guitars, 2tereo keys,2 overything else.....etc ....i think u can start using the rest of the processing in the box and having an hybrid will use the best of both worlds!!! so now u can do the editing at the computer!

thanks for all the replys here!

this is kind of what i was thinking about but i dont know gear wise how to go about it. i dont know the 1st thing about otb summing or what pieces of gear i would need to make it happen. as i said before i am open to all suggestions on a hybrid setup. i believe that would be the best direction to take for me but i dont want to do anything until i know what my options are. so far the toft is looking good but i dont know a lot about it as a unit. i wonder if i can set up an independent cue mix for the band with it like on a mackie?

about a year ago i got ahold of an hd24xr and a topaz project8 for a few days to test it out to see if it would sound better than what i am doing itb.
i recorded 1 song with it and shure enough the sound i was lacking itb was back with the topaz and hd24.
at the time i didnt want to go back to a console and all the things that go along with it so i dumped it and told myself to keep working itb and get better at it and i did and my itb stuff has gotten better but not good enough.

[uncle duncan]

Could it be plugs in PTLE throwing things out of time alignment? Without the benefit of automatic delay compensation for plug ins, it wouldn't take much to ruin a mix. On the HD24, used with analog gear for mixing, nothing moves, timewise, so all your phase relatiionships remain pristine.

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Could it be plugs in PTLE throwing things out of time alignment? Without the benefit of automatic delay compensation for plug ins, it wouldn't take much to ruin a mix. On the HD24, used with analog gear for mixing, nothing moves, timewise, so all your phase relatiionships remain pristine.

good question.

[belairstudio]

Moving back and forth from analog to digital mixing I can tell you what I've found.

No matter how you tweak an ITB mix, it'll never sound as if you did it on whatever board.

It all looks right and maybe sounds right ntoo but... it just isn't there


There's a certain quality of the low midrange, and the way transients blend and cut through that still sounds way different to me


It's like having a home theatre (ITB)... it'll never rock like cinema!

[rufus13]

Have you tried tracking with peaks 3-5dB below FS? If you are approaching zero, you are also exceeding zero. On playback, nothing exceeds zeroFS because it's peak clipped. 20+ tracks of clipped audio, summed (maybe also too-near 0dBFS on the 2-buss) will sound like @$$.

No mention of Plug's that do not clip gracefully.

Costs nothing. Track lower, mix lower. Turn the monitor volume up.

Best wishes.

Karl

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by rufus13

Have you tried tracking with peaks 3-5dB below FS? If you are approaching zero, you are also exceeding zero. On playback, nothing exceeds zeroFS because it's peak clipped. 20+ tracks of clipped audio, summed (maybe also too-near 0dBFS on the 2-buss) will sound like @$$.

No mention of Plug's that do not clip gracefully.

Costs nothing. Track lower, mix lower. Turn the monitor volume up.

Best wishes.

Karl

yea, i dont track too hot as to avoid the clips.

here is a link to a song i did 100% in the box. scroll 1/2 way down to the revised mix and let your ears be the judge on how it sounds. it just dosent quite have it. it is not big and full.

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=55745

[maskedman72]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

Could it be plugs in PTLE throwing things out of time alignment? Without the benefit of automatic delay compensation for plug ins, it wouldn't take much to ruin a mix. On the HD24, used with analog gear for mixing, nothing moves, timewise, so all your phase relatiionships remain pristine.

can anyone comment on this? things dont sound out of time here. in fact it sounds worse with no plugs.

still trying to figure my direction. i would like to try otb summing but i dont know what components i would need or how to make the connections. i dont know much about otb summing. my ultimate goal would be to simply have a good sounding daw. perhaps somethnig like a hedd with a otb summing solution. can someone explain how to set up otb summing with a 002r?

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

can anyone comment on this? things dont sound out of time here. in fact it sounds worse with no plugs.

still trying to figure my direction. i would like to try otb summing but i dont know what components i would need or how to make the connections. i dont know much about otb summing. my ultimate goal would be to simply have a good sounding daw. perhaps somethnig like a hedd with a otb summing solution. can someone explain how to set up otb summing with a 002r?

We use all things, including PT Lite and even PT Heavy, as well as Radar, Soundscape, Nuendo and a few others. We also use an Otari MX80 reel-to-reel, so I get to compare most things in most situations, so here goes -

The sound of PT Lite is abysmal. There is no other word for it! We use it for editing ONLY. No mix-in-the-box and no plug ins. Here are just some of the problems with PT-Lite that I have observed.

As the man said, it does not have time correction, so phase can be a problem, with or without plug ins. The moment you mix, eq, add an effect or whatever, you get timing and therefore phase problems.

The converters must win prizes for crappiness. They have just about every malaise that a poorly designed converter can have. There is a massive top-end distortion going on that seems to take place outside of hearing range. This gives everything a nasty 'edge' that can only be alleviated by filtering off everything above 15kHz.

It is unstable. There is nothing quite like getting halfway through a recording or an edit, only to have it freeze up and then have to be rebooted and loose everything from the last take.

So now the question has to be what to do.

Well, I would not dump PT-Lite just yet, unless you are having problems with the working methods. The software is OK. It's the hardware that causes the problems. PT-Heavy is one option, but it is a great deal to pay for a badge and quite honestly, the converters etc. there are no great shakes either. At best you could say they sound neutral.

One system that has surprised me for stability, ease of use and sonic quality is Soundscape, but of course no MIDI editing, but you can still edit to a MIDI-map. I think we paid about £3,000 ($5,000) for the whole thing inc. PC for a 96kHz - 24 IO system that uses exactly the same Motorola processors as PT-Heavy. Now that SSL have bought the company, you can expect some serious investment in this platform.

If I were you, I would be tempted to go for an old reel-to-reel first, combined with a reasonable desk. A Ghost or a Mackie would not be my choice, perhaps a smaller, old Amek off eBay or something similar. There are so many vintage desks out there, you should be spoilt for choice.

But I would keep away from more modern (cheaply built!!!) analogue desks and those giant, Japanese pocket calculators like the O2R and the DMX100. That would be - for a person like yourself, who is used to the sound of analogue - doing the old frying-pan into the fire routine!

Before you spend (waste?) a great deal of money, may I suggest two things for you to do. Firstly research how other people get their sounds and, secondly, get out there and visit studios using various sytems and compare all the types of sounds that they are getting.

The important thing for you right now is to find out what it is that you want and how best (cheapest!) to get there.

Dr Dre makes some of the most 'modern' sounds out there and he uses a Studer 827 and SSL. He tried PT once and sent it away. That should tell us something!

[dlmorley]

To be honest, I think ITB or OTB are very personal and not better or worse.
If you don't like it or the results, stop it.

I mix on my D&R and record through it onto a Fostex D2424lv. I'm thinking of trying out the new SSL Alpha AD/DA box so I can get a new Mac and record into the computer, as I don't see a difference between that and the Fostex (except practical advantages for editing) BUT I HATE mixing on a computer. I want 24 channels on my desk and I move the faders and twiddle the knobs.
It's not better or worse, it's ME! I CAN automate levels if I want to, but I have lots of great outboard and don't feel the need to dump it for software. again, not better or worse, but I WORK BETTER ON HARDWARE.
I think a desk and a system where you can record into PT or other Software but mix on a desk is probably YOU and flexible for clients.

The good news is, desks are CHEAP these days....go for something a step above ghost I think. Won't cost too much more to get something that sounds GREAT and is built to last.

Good luck and hope you find a more pleasurable way of working for you. It's important!

[AMIEL]

Yes! but Protools sesion are everywher and they are the standard, like it or not! so for the good of your biz I think to incorporate Protools as a tape and editing suite for your tracks would be great...so buy a Protools HD1 accell, buy a great old console where u can return your tracks from PT and use ur outboard gear.
I think that will be a cool system!

Dr Dre gave back his Protools, if Bruce Swedien can incorporate PT....he is an old school analog guy, if Jeff Juliano use it etc..
Which guy a prefer?? BS, JJ......hands down!

[jpupo74]

Originally Posted by maskedman72

ok, so i have been posting about various things related to this for a while now.

so here is the deal. i ditched all of my old gear that i was getting good sounds with (mackie 8-buss, mdr recorder with slutty pres) and got a ptle 002 rig with a mytek stereo adc. my pres are 2 ltd-1's. i have been on this rig for 3 years now and i have not done a single thing that sounds good to me. it all just sucks. when i put on old mixes i did on my old gear it drives me insane cause i am not even getting close to it. even though i know the mackie mdr and 24-8 arent the best things on earth i was getting sounds that were real and fat with nice imaging. now i am 100% itb and i do love it for obvious reasons, but the sound quality is just pure hell. everything sounds thin and weak and non exciting. the low end isnt there either. and dont get me started on plugins. total recall is awesome but what i had to sacrifice for it wasnt worth it. but enough of that. i am asking you all to help me in this situation to get back on track to better sounds.

i am considering getting a ghost and an hd24xr and grabbing a fireport and doing all of my tracking the old way than dumping to ptle for editing than dumping back to the hd24 for mixing through the ghost. i am open to all suggestions. i do hate to lose the automation and recall.

if you were in my shoes what would you do?

$ wise i am looking at about 5k for this.

thanks!

-jay

Hi Jay,

Myteks sound nice, AD will be the only thing I'll think about as "it sucks" for a 002. Yes I know mostly every plug sucks but I do know some of them are very clean and nice. Maybe change your work flow and know the software in a better way, how it works. I know the TDM system mixer is a clean 48bit one, I don't know about the new PT Le 7 version, probably not, this is part of the difference. Maybe HD is ready for ITB mixing but we'll have to wait a bit more for an LE to work with 48bit mixer, maybe someone around here can correct me.

Cheers,
Pupo

[mltamisin]

I've had to get rid of my 002 rig. I liked the convenience of it and miss that factor but as I started mixing projects I'd have alot of problems with delay compensation with plugins and phase issues. Especially with my UAD-1 and Powercore. I like to use alot of Aux's and this just made this more problematic. Also, the D/A converters sound really bad so going OTB only helped the tracks going out through my outboard D/A converters. So I scrapped it & went with a Lynx converter system and Cubase. It sounds better but is harder to get things done. I can live with it for now. Aaahhh, delay compensation...thank god.

[frontierfran]

I am in a similar predicament. I worked ITB for years...then picked up a Topaz for OTB mixing. Although the Topaz isnt an AMEK or anything, the sounds I get through it have a warmth and space that my ITB couldnt touch. however, I am missing the recall like you wouldnt believe. even a control surface where I can write automation with real faders and knobs made a huge difference and improvement to my mixes and workflow. now, I am about to venture back into the box, but this time upgrading my converters HUGELY going from MOTU haze to Apogee clarity...eventually using a NEVE or Dangerous summing piece in the end. I am hoping by doing this, I can regain the efficient workflow I gained ITB and coupling it with superior fidelity i will hopefully get from the tip top conversion and summing. my fringers are crossed (my wallet is cringing)
good luck!

[Zwinter]

Several people have mentioned this before, PTLE sounds like crap. It doesn't have delay compensation and its hardware is both limiting and sonically atrocious. That being said, what are the other options? Jay, are you open to using a different DAW? Or because of your comfort ability and clients needs are you stuck with PTLE? If you stick with PTLE can you cope with its digital I/O option (which let's you use converters that actually sound decent)? Unfortunately the 002 is incredibly limiting and you don't have any room to grow. So forget about having 16 channels of outboard converters. Are you okay with this?

I really think you should be asking yourself what you require functionality wise. Hopefully, once you look at what you need and what you don't need you can see what direction to go. For example, if you need to use plug-ins then look at a DAW that has automatic delay compensation. If you want 24 channels of AD/DA, then look at a system that will let you have that.

Ultimately fighting over the sound of PTLE won't help you make any decisions, but looking at what you need to track and mix will.