Drum Loops

[ziegenh5]

I'm looking to add some loops into my arsenal. What is the best way to go about this. FYI I'm all analog in the studio, have no computer. Are there any good hardware samplers, drum machines, synths. I'd be willing to throw some money at this for the right piece. Are those AKai MPC????00 things cool? What do you guys use. I guess I'm looking for something in the vein of David Grey, Radiohead, or Oasis type loops. Not techno, dance, or hip hop stuff. Would something like the Yamaha Motif have cool loops on it. I could also use a nice realistic piano sound and string patches, but most important are the loops. I could always record a real piano and a string section if need be.
Thanks for your input.
Sean

[smoothmoniker]

The Akai is pretty much the standard.

That said, there are a few things out there that look interesting. The new YAMAHA Motif resample and beat slice software gives you a hardware version of Recycle, basically. The KORG studio series will allow you to import Akai format sample CDs, which opens up a whole library of sounds that you otherwise wouldn't have access too.

Keep in mind that none of these machines are going to offer the flexibility of a computer running a scaled down version of LOGIC with a sampler (insert your favorite DAW app here). At over 2k for any of the hardware options, you might even save some dough by going software.

good luck!
-sm

[darling]

If you don't want to use a computer, I would suggest a used akai s-2000 ( about $600.00 ), and any number of sound/loop c.d.s. Besides loops you can get strings-horns-mellotron-keys - pretty much anything. You can also sample and cut your own stuff.
All this plus a drum machine/sequencer - get an MPC 2000, or MPC-60
(about a grand ) Allthough the MPC's don't do sample playback quite as easily as a dedicated sampler.
There are alot of other drum machine / samplers out there that are great - But akai ( as well as E-MU ) have huge libraries that are easy to find.
Hope this helps - good luck- Dave Darling

[DrDeltaM]

Originally posted by darling
If you don't want to use a computer, I would suggest a used akai s-2000 ( about $600.00 )

I'll happily sell mine for that price

They go dirt cheap these days, around $200 or so maybe. But usefull for some simple sample playback stuff. Get an Emu for more editing features, while still having access to Akai sample banks.

[chrisso]

Just a word of warning.....
there is very little available in loop cd's along the lines you talk about.
Most loop CD's are dance or urban oriented. There are a few 'rock' products, but they are more skewed to the mainstream (Aerosmith, Journey).
None of the bands you mention use loops to my knowledge.
In particular, Radiohead seem to process their self recorded drums.
Last word of warning...
I predict loops (as a groovy vibe in rock music) have had their day.
If you just need a product to help create drumtracks that's another thing however.

[ziegenh5]

Listen to Oasis "Go let it out" or David Gray "Babylon". I'm looking for something along those lines.

One suggestion that I do find interesting is just getting a computer. I could use my own for other stuff, email, etc. If I went this route, what type of computer would I need(I'm a PC guy), what programs are cool, and how much $$$$ are we talking about.

Now let's talk sound quality. Do computer based programs sound as good as say an AKAI or EMU or KORG, Yamaha, etc. Or is a "sample" a "sample".

Thanks very much,
Sean

[Onan]

A sample isn't a sample. But no sampler can keep up with a PC. If you can find something to suit you for $200, great. But if you want a real sampling tool, get a computer. $1000 invested in a PC will go a lot farther, and be useful for a lot longer, than the same $$ in dedicated sampling hardware. Then check out the major sample-software manufacturers for free demos and choose.

Primesounds.com is a good library of samples. You "subscribe" and can download whatever you want, with a huge variety of sounds. I use it for whole loops, and also build loops from individual instruments. Your subscription price includes limited rights to use the sounds commercially.

Have fun!

Regards,
Lee

[Klaseed]

I'm not so sure about that, Onan my man. Of course, computer-based samplers have tons of advantages - all the usual arguments for going software apply in spades.

But if you want your samples to actually have some personality, it's hard to beat a hardware sampler. I've used EXS24, Halion and Kontakt, and found that compared to an Emu Ultra or Akai s5000/s6000 they left me completely flaccid.

Obviously, with enough work, you could get some great sounds out of software, but at the prices hardware samplers are going for, why not try one out? The Akai S2000 series is especially good for the money. Avoid the Emu ESI series at all costs, though - the interface is terrible.

[Onan]

Klaseed, my apologies. I should know better than to speak in absolutes. Thanks for keeping me on my toes. I'll flesh out my thought:

A dedicated sampler IS a computer, albeit with a narrowly defined function. It's an a/d converter, proprietary software running on a computer chip, and a d/a converter. As many gearslutz threads show, the a/d and d/a are hugely important, and a PC with poor converters will make a bad-sounding sampler.

If a person wants to do a lot of sample editing, the interface on a dedicated sampler could be pretty hard to tolerate. But obviously people have made a lot of great music using those things. My experience is that people using dedicated samplers like to buy samples to load and play, rather than make/edit samples, and I suspect that's largely because of the interface difficulty.

If a person wants to play samples, a dedicated sampler is fine, and probably much better for some applications, because you can just turn it on and play. No plug-in midi-interface drivers to install/update/fix/update/repeat. No inexplicable digital transients from a sound card. Want a good sounding digital piano? Buy a sampler. In fact, I'm thinking of buying a sampler for that reason (I have no space for a piano).

Want to edit guitar feedback that you've recorded at every pitch in two octaves, to build a quirky new synth of your own? Or pile loops on top of each other to build the percussion dynamics, while using different portions of the same loop, starting in different places in a given loop in each measure? Or record your own live drums to make custom loops? Buy a PC with good a/d d/a.

I see a DAW as just a very flexible sampler. Sure, each sample might be 5 minutes long, and you can stack 32 of them on top of each other, with effects, and route them through the converters to apply analogue processing, too. But it's still playing digital sound files on cue. If a person is new to computers and sampling, maybe an inexpensive DAW with an inexpensive plug-in "sampler" is a good place to start. If the goal is to play drum loops, the sampler plug-in isn't even necessary: just lay out the loops in the track editor. BUT, if you've already got your analogue tape synchronized with a midi rig, interfacing a computer could be a lot of work.

Caveat: I'm not a pro. I do this stuff for fun, so I'm never in a rush to please anybody. My studio is my Erector Set.

Lee

[rjx]

My EMU ESI32 is as easy to use as anything else I tried to learn (synth related).
Great yet cheap powerful samplers are ...
Yamaha A3000, A4000, A5000 Lots of nice capabilities
Akai S5000, S6000
EMU 6400

Akai'ss are nice samplers and are compatible with almost all sample cds.
EMU's have great sounding filters
Yamaha's are great little samplers with nice filters and lots of sampling power

Also, you may want to look into a 12 bit sampler since you are going to be using the sampler for drums. The 12 bit sample quality adds lowfi crunch which is great for drums!

Roland S550 is a great one. Plus you can hook up a monitor to it.
Also look into the Akai S900, S950
EMU Emax, SP12

[ziegenh5]

Thanks for all the help. I'm leaning in the direction of a dedicated sampler. Which sound the best for alternative rock. What are the differences between the Akai MPC3000 and the MPC2000XL, etc.? How do the EMU and Yamaha boxes compare to the Akai's.
I see that most people prefer the older samplers? Why is that?
Thanks,
Sean

[rjx]

Originally posted by ziegenh5
What are the differences between the Akai MPC3000 and the MPC2000XL, etc.?

MPC 60 12 bit
Polyphony 16 voices
Multitimbral 16 parts
Memory 1.5MB
Sequencer
Number of Notes 60,000
Number of Patterns 99
Number of songs 20

MPC 3000 16 bit
Polyphony 32 voices
Multitimbral 32 parts
Memory 16 mb max
Sequencer
Number of Notes 75,000
Number of Patterns 99
Number of songs 20

MPC 2000 16 bit
Polyphony 32 voices
Multitimbral 32 parts
Memory 32 mb max
Sequencer
Number of Notes 300,000
Number of Patterns 99
Number of songs 20

MPC 2000xl adds several new features which include a Next Sequence key, four bank keys, Track Mute key, a hinged LCD, multi-program playback, device naming, MIDI soft thru, multi-track recording, time stretch, resampling, simultaneous playback of a second sequence, and folder file management.

MPC 2000xl adds an 8-out board and SMPTE board, and S/PDIF digital I/O built in. A standard MPC-2000XL can be upgraded to the Studio Sampler using the optional IB-M20T SMPTE board and Multi-8/DM Digital In/Out Board. There is also an MPC-2000XL Studio Plus model, which comes with all the expansion boards found in the Studio Sampler version as well as the EB16 SampleVerb Multi-Effects Processor Board option built-in.

The MPC-2000 and MPC-2000XL can be upgraded to include up to 8 outputs, digital I/O, 4 multi-effects processors, expanded filters, 8MB Flash ROM board, SMPTE board.

MPC 1000 16 bit
Polyphony 32 voices
Multitimbral 64 parts
Memory 128 mb max
Sequencer
Number of Notes 100,000
Number of Patterns 250
Number of songs 20

Other MPC questions can be answered at www.mpc-forums.com

Originally posted by ziegenh5
How do the EMU and Yamaha boxes compare to the Akai's.

Great!

Originally posted by ziegenh5
I see that most people prefer the older samplers? Why is that?

There cheaper. Maybe they have owned it since they came out and know the ins and outs like the back of their hand. Could be anything. Also maybe the sound qualities

[ziegenh5]

Wow!! That was some great info rjx. Thanks so much for taking the time to type that out. Just looking at specs and options, it looks like the MPC2000XL would be the winner. They also sell for less than the MPC3000 on ebay. Why is that? Is one sonically superior than the other?
Sean

[ziegenh5]

From further research, it looks like most people prefer the sound of the MPC-3000 and MPC-60 over the 2000XL. Anyone compared a 3000 to a 60?
Sean

[rjx]

Originally posted by ziegenh5
From further research, it looks like most people prefer the sound of the MPC-3000 and MPC-60 over the 2000XL. Anyone compared a 3000 to a 60?
Sean

Some people say that the 3000 sounds closer to a 60 than the 2000. I dunno. Hype?

There is a big difference between the sound of the 60 to the 2000, but I can't see how there would be a difference between the 3000/2000 that would make people want the 3000 more. Maybe because of the filters of the 3000? Or maybe because its from the old school? ... kinda.

I forgot to mention the MPC4000
www.mpcsounds.com/akai_mpc_4000.htm