Using 1/2" tape as a peak limiter

Bump Music · 13th November 2006, 08:45 AM

I'm recording a Classic Rock/Punkish album right now and was thinking about using 1/2" tape as my peak limiter (after all my buss compression).

I've only ever tracked to tape, so I'm not familiar with how hard you can hit two track tape. I may have to use 1/4" cuz I own a 1/4" machine. I know 1/2" is better but will 1/4 do the job?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

P.S I own a Fatso, and as great as it is, it doesn't give me the peak limiting I'm looking for with this album.

3rd world order · 13th November 2006, 09:04 AM

1/2" tape will definitely limit peaks and add something to your mixes.. now will it limit peak enough for modern mixes? hmmm... prolly not... you'll still need L1/2/3 somewhere down the line.

but every lil counts, right?

seaneldon · 13th November 2006, 09:09 AM

please do not use a tape machine as a piece of outboard equipment. use it as a recorder. that's what it is. many companies now make outboard gear that will fit in a rack and are supposed to give the "tape sound", whatever that means.

if you want something to do peak limiting...get a peak limiter.

Bump Music · 13th November 2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

1/2" tape will definitely limit peaks and add something to your mixes.. now will it limit peak enough for modern mixes? hmmm... prolly not... you'll still need L1/2/3 somewhere down the line.

but every lil counts, right?

Thanks 3rd World... But I'd really rather not use a digital limiter. Not for this album. Other albums I've done, no prob... Digital limiters everywhere. But this is my own record... It's very special to me and I want it to sound "classic".

I find of all the plug ins out there, peak limiters sound the most "fake" and unnatural. They get the job done, but at what cost? Know what I mean?

How did the 1960's and 1970's mixing and/or mastering engineers get their stuff loud and tame their peaks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

please do not use a tape machine as a piece of outboard equipment. use it as a recorder. that's what it is. many companies now make outboard gear that will fit in a rack and are supposed to give the "tape sound", whatever that means.

if you want something to do peak limiting...get a peak limiter.

I have a Fatso... It doesn't work for this application. I don't want to use the tape as an outboard piece of gear... I want to use it as a cool sounding mix down deck and am asking IF it can ALSO act as a peak limiter.

Silver Sonya · 13th November 2006, 02:31 PM

Are you recording to multi-track tape?

If you're after an authentic sound, remove digital recording from the equation altogether. Otherwise, let it go and just try to do the best you can with what you have. Nothing recorded in a DAW will ever fool the listener into thinking that it was recorded in the '60s.

Also, important note: records from the '60s and '70s were never anywhere near as loud RMS-wise as records today. Take any rock record from that era and compare it to any record from this one. Play them back to back and you will find that the old one is quieter but easier to listen to. The new one will likely be blisteringly loud, bright and peak-limited and therefore encourage you to turn the volume down. It's the ironic age we live in: very loud records that people listen to very quietly because it's painful to turn up the volume...

- c

thenoiseflower · 13th November 2006, 02:52 PM

???? whats the big tiff?

I use my 1'2" 4 track as inserts when I mix sometimes. Great for a paralell groups and for backup vocals. Its fine if your mixing OTB, but if you were gonna re-convert for an ITB mix, I would say its not gonna give you that TAPE effect, unless what you want is the TAPE distortion (hey if thats whatcha need , you know), and even then, going back into the computer is always gonna kinda sound like computers.

hey whatever sounds good.

dlmorley · 13th November 2006, 04:14 PM

Hmmm I classify my MCI JH100 1/4" as an effect EVEN if I master onto it

Serioulsy, if it sounds good it is good and some tracks just love being pushed onto 1/4". Maybe 1/2" is better or worse for that. I don't know, but the sound I get from my 1/4" is lovely...when it works.
If you really want old school, I have an old Valve EMI TR52 1/4" Reel to Reel

Wow & Flutter: Yes
Frequency response: I think so
Sound: Old School Extraordinaire....

Bump Music · 13th November 2006, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

Are you recording to multi-track tape?

If you're after an authentic sound, remove digital recording from the equation altogether. Otherwise, let it go and just try to do the best you can with what you have. Nothing recorded in a DAW will ever fool the listener into thinking that it was recorded in the '60s.

Also, important note: records from the '60s and '70s were never anywhere near as loud RMS-wise as records today. Take any rock record from that era and compare it to any record from this one. Play them back to back and you will find that the old one is quieter but easier to listen to. The new one will likely be blisteringly loud, bright and peak-limited and therefore encourage you to turn the volume down. It's the ironic age we live in: very loud records that people listen to very quietly because it's painful to turn up the volume...

- c

Thanks Silver. No, I didn't track to tape, but I triggered all of my drums with vinyl samples. So they sound pretty fricken cool. I'm actually worried that if I use tape as a limiter the drums will get TOO soft and harmonically distorted.

Also, I'm tracking through a Fatso, which is only tape "emulation", but it sounds pretty darn nice and euphonic on most things.

And, I know the 60's and 70's stuff was quiter than stuff now. But I'm willing to take the volume hit if it means I don't have to use an L2 or cliip my converters.

dlmorley · 13th November 2006, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Sonya

It's the ironic age we live in: very loud records that people listen to very quietly because it's painful to turn up the volume...

- c

I can't stand listening to stuff like that. Even WAY down in volume it sounds like it's blasting. Drives me nuts.
the textual equivalent would be

WHEN EVEN NICE WORDS LIKE "KITTEN", "MARSHMALLOW" OR "FLOWERS" ANNOY ME BECAUSE THEY ARE LOUD!

drBill · 13th November 2006, 07:56 PM

A tape machine is not a peak limiter. At least not in the sense of L2 or Maxim or any number of digital peak limiters. Compression - yes. Limiting.....not really. My guess is that you're after tape compression.

Bump Music · 13th November 2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drBill

A tape machine is not a peak limiter. At least not in the sense of L2 or Maxim or any number of digital peak limiters. Compression - yes. Limiting.....not really. My guess is that you're after tape compression.

I just want to get rid of the peaks without using a digital limiter. Coudl I use the Pendulum Audio limiter for this?

7 Hz · 13th November 2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlmorley

WHEN EVEN NICE WORDS LIKE "KITTEN", "MARSHMALLOW" OR "FLOWERS" ANNOY ME BECAUSE THEY ARE LOUD!

YES THAT IS QUITE CORRECT, TODAYS MASTERING IS THE AURAL EQUIVALENT TO TYPING IN ALL CAPS, IT'S THE MODERN THING DONTCHA KNOW! EVERYONE ELSE DOES IT, SO I HAVE TO AS WELL.

mahasandi · 13th November 2006, 08:00 PM

peak limiting is not sexy

glue is sexy

please use a tape machine for sexy glue.

foldback · 13th November 2006, 08:09 PM

At the 1991 AES round table Bruce Swedian explained that he used his 16 track 2" as a tape processor, mixer to tape then right back off the play head to Sony digital tape. This gave him the analog tape sound on his digital recordings, no waiting. Personally I think your half inch tape machine would not make a good peak limiter but why not give it a try and let us all know how it works out. Cheers.

NathanEldred · 13th November 2006, 10:08 PM

Not advisable to use tape as a peak limiter. It's not fast enough, and it won't do what you want it to do. By the time you square off the wave it will sound horrible IME even with the best machine.

theblue1 · 13th November 2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

please do not use a tape machine as a piece of outboard equipment. use it as a recorder. that's what it is. many companies now make outboard gear that will fit in a rack and are supposed to give the "tape sound", whatever that means.

if you want something to do peak limiting...get a peak limiter.

Please do not?

Is it gonna help the terrorists, or something?

Now, I'd probably recommend against him spending money JUST to find out whether or not it would work out the way he wants but if he's already got the deck, I'm thinking a little experimentation might just yield some interesting results or at least some food for thought.

One thing you can consider doing is running your mix into the tape's inputs and -- with the monitor section switched to the playback head output (not the simulsync output!) then 'simultaneously' bringing that back into your computer. The main advantage is that this saves you time... [Okay, you lose a second or so as the tape moves from the rec/simulsync head over to the PB head.

]

I've talked to folks who mixed like this, in fact, and just let the tape deck roll... flipping the reels when they were done and recording back the other way (which on a two-track machine, of course, erases the previous mixes) -- since they were only using the tape as a "buss insert effect" and were capturing the tape output as they went along.

thenoiseflower · 13th November 2006, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1

I've talked to folks who mixed like this, in fact, and just let the tape deck roll... flipping the reels when they were done and recording back the other way (which on a two-track machine, of course, erases the previous mixes) -- since they were only using the tape as a "buss insert effect" and were capturing the tape output as they went along.

Exactly how I have been, and will continue using mine.

Bump Music · 14th November 2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Not advisable to use tape as a peak limiter. It's not fast enough, and it won't do what you want it to do. By the time you square off the wave it will sound horrible IME even with the best machine.

So how hard can you hit your mix to two track tape? I've hit drums pretty hard and it always sounds great. But like I said, never mixed down to 1/4" or 1/2".

JonCraig · 14th November 2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

please do not use a tape machine as a piece of outboard equipment. use it as a recorder. that's what it is. many companies now make outboard gear that will fit in a rack and are supposed to give the "tape sound", whatever that means.

if you want something to do peak limiting...get a peak limiter.

why the **** not? if it sounds good... period. will it do the same thing as a peak limiter? probably not. but why limit your sonic possibilities?

--jon

u b k · 14th November 2006, 07:34 AM

i doubt tape is gonna get you the whole distance you want to go, but it will be a good thing. tape does limit, but it don't release, so things get soft when you push into it too hard. first it'll limit, then it'll saturate, then it'll distort. you'll likely find the sweet spot somewhere past limiting but well before distortion.

IME the tape that limits the most while keeping 'stiff' is gp9; calibrate it hot, push it good. 456 is the softest of the current formulae, very old school, and everything else is somewhere in between.

the bonus is that the better the job you do with tape, the better the result will sound when you use the adl or pendulum or (insert limiter here).

also, i'd be willing to bet there are a million mastering guys who'd be only too happy to NOT stick an L2 on your mix, to take your tape and just use their hardware to bring it home.

gregoire
del
ubk
.

u b k · 14th November 2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

please do not use a tape machine as a piece of outboard equipment. use it as a recorder. that's what it is.

i paid for mine, therefore it is *I* who gets to say what it is.

and i say it's the best damn processor i can use on most vocal and acoustic guitar tracks that i get paid to drop into mixes. there is not a compressor or limiter on earth than can do for those two instruments what tape will do.

also, yes, it's a fine way to record.

gregoire
del
ubk
.

3rd world order · 14th November 2006, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bump Music

But like I said, never mixed down to 1/4" or 1/2".

tape makes demos sound like records... call me oldskool, but nothing sounds "finished" until it comes back off tape.

seaneldon · 14th November 2006, 07:47 AM

i might have come off a little harsh, i guess. i'm just saying that this guy is basically asking for some sort of limiter, and for whatever reason, he won't just use a limiter. it just seems like he's just way too concerned about how loud his songs are, and should maybe focus more on getting a proper mix, and then sending it off to mastering to let them destroy it all he wants.

dlmorley · 14th November 2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

i might have come off a little harsh, i guess. i'm just saying that this guy is basically asking for some sort of limiter, and for whatever reason, he won't just use a limiter. it just seems like he's just way too concerned about how loud his songs are, and should maybe focus more on getting a proper mix, and then sending it off to mastering to let them destroy it all he wants.

Agree here. If Limiting is required, a limiter will do it, not tape.
I do think, like a previous poster, that when you go to tape, it can make any later processing work better.
All in all though, if someone wants it to sound like a good 70's recording, then some good outboard and tape is a pretty good starting point.

3rd world order · 14th November 2006, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlmorley

All in all though, if someone wants it to sound like a good 70's recording, then some good outboard and tape is a pretty good starting point.

ppl didnt stop using tape in the 70s... a lot of ppl never stopped using tape as a mix format

dlmorley · 14th November 2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3rd world order

ppl didnt stop using tape in the 70s... a lot of ppl never stopped using tape as a mix format

No, I didn't say they did. I meant if someone wants a formula for how to sound 70's, it NEEDS tape (or it's easiest that way).

Bump Music · 14th November 2006, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaneldon

i might have come off a little harsh, i guess. i'm just saying that this guy is basically asking for some sort of limiter, and for whatever reason, he won't just use a limiter. it just seems like he's just way too concerned about how loud his songs are, and should maybe focus more on getting a proper mix, and then sending it off to mastering to let them destroy it all he wants.

"This guy"???

I was asking IF tape can be used as a limiter. Can it? "Yes", "No", "Sometimes", &q

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13th November 2006, 08:45 AM	#1
Bump Music Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 614	Using 1/2" tape as a peak limiter I'm recording a Classic Rock/Punkish album right now and was thinking about using 1/2" tape as my peak limiter (after all my buss compression). I've only ever tracked to tape, so I'm not familiar with how hard you can hit two track tape. I may have to use 1/4" cuz I own a 1/4" machine. I know 1/2" is better but will 1/4 do the job? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. P.S I own a Fatso, and as great as it is, it doesn't give me the peak limiting I'm looking for with this album.

13th November 2006, 09:04 AM	#2
3rd world order Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: ann arbor, michigan Posts: 1,947	1/2" tape will definitely limit peaks and add something to your mixes.. now will it limit peak enough for modern mixes? hmmm... prolly not... you'll still need L1/2/3 somewhere down the line. but every lil counts, right? __________________ 3WO - Mixing Without Tears "Tape is a mangler.." -- Slipperman // "The idea of the perfect album is this amorphous thing we're always aiming at. For us, it can mean something full of imperfection. Part of our aim has always been to destroy the sound in a beautiful way. It doesn't mean we expect everyone would like it. I'm not sure we will ever get there... but the whole point of making music is at least to aim at your own idea of perfection." -- Boards of Canada

13th November 2006, 02:31 PM	#5
Silver Sonya Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,490	uhh... asking the obvious... Are you recording to multi-track tape? If you're after an authentic sound, remove digital recording from the equation altogether. Otherwise, let it go and just try to do the best you can with what you have. Nothing recorded in a DAW will ever fool the listener into thinking that it was recorded in the '60s. Also, important note: records from the '60s and '70s were never anywhere near as loud RMS-wise as records today. Take any rock record from that era and compare it to any record from this one. Play them back to back and you will find that the old one is quieter but easier to listen to. The new one will likely be blisteringly loud, bright and peak-limited and therefore encourage you to turn the volume down. It's the ironic age we live in: very loud records that people listen to very quietly because it's painful to turn up the volume... - c

13th November 2006, 10:08 PM	#15
NathanEldred Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: West Coast Central Florida Posts: 5,451	Not advisable to use tape as a peak limiter. It's not fast enough, and it won't do what you want it to do. By the time you square off the wave it will sound horrible IME even with the best machine. __________________ Nathan Eldred Atlas Pro Audio- Boutique Gear, Consultation, Sales, & Distibution Home of the Atlas Juggernaut Preamp & 500 Series Revolver Rack USA Distributor for Buzz Audio Exclusive Worldwide Distributor for Atlas Pro Audio Gear, Old School Audio (OSA), and Burgin McDaniel Design Atlas Recording Studios, Inc. Recording/Mixing/Mastering Services

13th November 2006, 09:09 AM	#3
seaneldon Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Foxboro, MA Posts: 2,082	please do not use a tape machine as a piece of outboard equipment. use it as a recorder. that's what it is. many companies now make outboard gear that will fit in a rack and are supposed to give the "tape sound", whatever that means. if you want something to do peak limiting...get a peak limiter.

13th November 2006, 02:52 PM	#6
thenoiseflower Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Boston Posts: 1,068	???? whats the big tiff? I use my 1'2" 4 track as inserts when I mix sometimes. Great for a paralell groups and for backup vocals. Its fine if your mixing OTB, but if you were gonna re-convert for an ITB mix, I would say its not gonna give you that TAPE effect, unless what you want is the TAPE distortion (hey if thats whatcha need , you know), and even then, going back into the computer is always gonna kinda sound like computers. hey whatever sounds good.

13th November 2006, 04:14 PM	#7
dlmorley Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 3,070	Hmmm I classify my MCI JH100 1/4" as an effect EVEN if I master onto it Serioulsy, if it sounds good it is good and some tracks just love being pushed onto 1/4". Maybe 1/2" is better or worse for that. I don't know, but the sound I get from my 1/4" is lovely...when it works. If you really want old school, I have an old Valve EMI TR52 1/4" Reel to Reel Wow & Flutter: Yes Frequency response: I think so Sound: Old School Extraordinaire....

13th November 2006, 07:56 PM	#10
drBill Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: So Cal Posts: 3,746	A tape machine is not a peak limiter. At least not in the sense of L2 or Maxim or any number of digital peak limiters. Compression - yes. Limiting.....not really. My guess is that you're after tape compression.

13th November 2006, 08:00 PM	#13
mahasandi Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 681	peak limiting is not sexy glue is sexy please use a tape machine for sexy glue.

13th November 2006, 08:09 PM	#14
foldback Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: St. Louis Posts: 682	At the 1991 AES round table Bruce Swedian explained that he used his 16 track 2" as a tape processor, mixer to tape then right back off the play head to Sony digital tape. This gave him the analog tape sound on his digital recordings, no waiting. Personally I think your half inch tape machine would not make a good peak limiter but why not give it a try and let us all know how it works out. Cheers.

14th November 2006, 07:34 AM	#20
u b k Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: m a n h a t t a n Posts: 5,539	i doubt tape is gonna get you the whole distance you want to go, but it will be a good thing. tape does limit, but it don't release, so things get soft when you push into it too hard. first it'll limit, then it'll saturate, then it'll distort. you'll likely find the sweet spot somewhere past limiting but well before distortion. IME the tape that limits the most while keeping 'stiff' is gp9; calibrate it hot, push it good. 456 is the softest of the current formulae, very old school, and everything else is somewhere in between. the bonus is that the better the job you do with tape, the better the result will sound when you use the adl or pendulum or (insert limiter here). also, i'd be willing to bet there are a million mastering guys who'd be only too happy to NOT stick an L2 on your mix, to take your tape and just use their hardware to bring it home. gregoire del ubk . __________________ . . m i x _ a r c h i t e c t . . __________________

14th November 2006, 07:47 AM	#23
seaneldon Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Foxboro, MA Posts: 2,082	i might have come off a little harsh, i guess. i'm just saying that this guy is basically asking for some sort of limiter, and for whatever reason, he won't just use a limiter. it just seems like he's just way too concerned about how loud his songs are, and should maybe focus more on getting a proper mix, and then sending it off to mastering to let them destroy it all he wants.