20 minute preamp shootout!

[mdsmith64]

Hey all,

Just thought I would add on to James' 5 minute preamp shootout:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=93343

Actually, I've been promising these clips for a while now.

I promised clips in this thread:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=92258

and I posted a Great River/mix clip in this thread:

http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php?t=88466

These clips were recorded with a Ibanez JS1000 through a Peavey JSX into a Carvin Legacy 4x12 equipped with Greenbacks. I stuck a Royer 121 pointed directly at the cone and angled slightly downward right up to the grill. I switched the cable only at the preamp end of things and made no adjustments to the amp between takes. Each take is a unique performance of Satriani's Summer song. I played a couple bars of the intro and a couple of bars of the verse. The intro is chordal while the verse is a single note melody so that you can hear the preamp's performance for both rhythm and lead (although, for me, I think the chords are the most diagnostic). The sound is average and I've done better, but wanted to get this done and didn't want to spend 2 hours just adjusting the mic. Having said this, all clips were recorded using the same setup so this will have no bearing on the outcome of the test.

The clips were recorded in Sonar 6 with no additional processing whatsoever. I made some attempt to have the individual clips peak somewhere around -6, but strongly encourage you to normalize levels between clips on your own system for comparison. I exported the stereo wave files in two formats, 24/96 and 16/44.1 and applied Pwr-3 dithering only on export.

I used four preamps. Two of the preamps were recorded at two different settings. I'd like to take this excercise a step further and not identify the preamps before people have a chance to take a listen. Do I need to tell you why? No, I didn't think so, you intelligent Gearslut you! I will tell you that the Pacifica is among them, however. If you are really serious about hearing the subtle differences between these preamps, I strongly encourage you to download the 24/96 files and play them through your studio monitors. If you absolutely must, then download the 16/44.1 files and play them on your computer, but you will have a harder time hearing the differences, guaranteed. Please post your thoughts and preferences and after a day or so (Saturday maybe) I'll identify the clips by preamp. Thanks for playing! And now, without further ado, may we have the contestants please.....

24/96:

Preamp A: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._96-Master.wav

Preamp B: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._96-Master.wav

Preamp C1: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2...ter-Master.wav

Preamp C2: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._96-Master.wav

Preamp D1: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._96-Master.wav

Preamp D2: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._96-Master.wav

16/44.1:

Preamp A: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._44-Master.wav

Preamp B: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2...ter-Master.wav

Preamp C1: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._44-Master.wav

Preamp C2: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._44-Master.wav

Preamp D1: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._44-Master.wav

Preamp D2: http://pariah-now.com/Music/Preamp%2..._44-Master.wav

Disclaimer: Look, I know this exercise has limited value in the sense that it is one particular song, one particular guitar, one particular amp, one particular mic, not a mix...you get the point. In this situation one preamp may sounds better, but in another it could very well be a different preamp that sounds better. However, I believe there is some value in hearing at least one possible outcome when using a particular preamp. You hear enough of these and after a while you may even form an educated opinion of a particular preamp (no!). Also, I've done my best to limit the number of variable, but make no claim as to the rigour of this test as compared to a true, rigidly controlled test.

O.K., enough of that. Let's have some fun!

Best Regards,

Mike.

[mdsmith64]

Oh, I forgot to mention. You can download the free Winamp player and hear the 24/96 files on your computer (I can't believe I am telling you this). Again, only if you must.

http://www.winamp.com/

Best Regards,

Mike.

[mdsmith64]

Man, I feel like a Republican candidate on November 8th! LOL! I kid, I kid....
Maybe I should have put Pacifica in the title...

Seriously, though, did I put too much in a single post? Should I have broken it down into smaller pieces, or fewer preamps?

Maybe if I give a little hint I can generate more interest in this thread. Here you go:

Pacifica
Great River ME-1NV
AEA TRP
RNP


Some of you will be able to now separate the clips into two groups. If you think you can do this, post and I will tell you if you are right (and thereby tell everyone).

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Cosmonauta]

Unfortunately I don't have the time to download and listen to them at this moment.
But I will do for sure, asap!!!!

Count on my vote, sir!!!! thumbsup

And thx in advance!

[pan60]

well i will say the c1 sounds like the one i would go with but i must add i did a very quick listen and on computer speakers the c1 jumped out a bit so i will say that it is the pacifica.
i must add that the sound of all the samples sounded a bit muddy to me though.
do not take offense as i say i am on my computer speakers. : )

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by Cosmonauta

Unfortunately I don't have the time to download and listen to them at this moment.
But I will do for sure, asap!!!!

Count on my vote, sir!!!! thumbsup

And thx in advance!

Understood.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by pan60

well i will say the c1 sounds like the one i would go with but i must add i did a very quick listen and on computer speakers the c1 jumped out a bit so i will say that it is the pacifica.
i must add that the sound of all the samples sounded a bit muddy to me though.
do not take offense as i say i am on my computer speakers. : )

No offense taken. Actually I'm quite pleased that you took a careful listen. As I said in the original post I didn't spend a whole lot of time getting a "great sound". Also, remember I'm using a Royer 121 ribbon which has been accused in the past of being a bit dark. On purpose, I didn't want to process the clips in any way. If I were to use these clips in a mix, I agree that some of the wool would need to be stripped away (and as Fletcher has said about the royer - "add a little, and I do mean a little, high shelf"). Thanks for taking a listen!

Best Regards,

Mike.

[pan60]

[Tom H]

Listened to all the 16/44.1 files on headphones on my computer so please don't take this to serious...

"A" sounded the darkest to me, also had the least impact, wouldn't choose this preamp for this particular recording.

"C2" stood out the best, perhaps because it was the loudest. Would choose this one probably.

I think later this weekend i'll give myself a blind test with the 24/96 files on studiomonitors to see if i'm not bullshitting mysef!

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by Tommylicious

Listened to all the 16/44.1 files on headphones on my computer so please don't take this to serious...

"A" sounded the darkest to me, also had the least impact, wouldn't choose this preamp for this particular recording.

"C2" stood out the best, perhaps because it was the loudest. Would choose this one probably.

I think later this weekend i'll give myself a blind test with the 24/96 files on studiomonitors to see if i'm not bullshitting mysef!

This is exactly my own assessment. Very interesting. Thanks!

Best Regards,

Mike.

[pan60]

as i am a idiot and can not read or reason i will say the B: )
but i still like the C1!, as far as they way i am hearing it and a dose sound a bit to dark for this guitar tone.
maybe interesting on a more clucky tone.

[mdsmith64]

Here are pictures of the setup:

[pan60]

for all you guys that are not playing come on.
what's the worst that can happen, you hear a tone you do not like?
if i am wrong well i still love my gear and it is still good gear!
it aint like i am recording that type of guitar tone, in that studio, on that song, in what ever mix it sets in.
mike spent some at least take a listen.

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by pan60

for all you guys that are not playing come on.
what's the worst that can happen, you hear a tone you do not like?
if i am wrong well i still love my gear and it is still good gear!
it aint like i am recording that type of guitar tone, in that studio, on that song, in what ever mix it sets in.
mike spent some at least take a listen.

Thanks pan60. You are correct...it was never my intention for this to be something where people felt like they were putting their reputations on the line. It just seems like every day there is a new thread posted about the Great River, or the Pacifica, or the RNP. My intention was to give all those posters a chance to hear the preamps. Of course, I wanted to give people a chance at a fair, unbiased listen and so that's why I did not post the answers right away.

Also, as you point out, this isn't about which is the "best" preamp either. In my humble opinion, the differences are either really small, or "just different" - neither good or bad. Any one of these preamps could be a better choice over the others given the right circumstances.

Keep in mind, also, that I didn't explore every possible setting with each preamp either. Had I done that, there would have been twice as many clips easily. I would have lost everyone's attention even faster than I did with this one!

Regarding the raw nature of these clips, keep in mind that that was a conscious decision for which I hope are obvious reasons. In particular, I chose the R121 because a lot of people have been posting about that mic as well and so I thought I would kill two birds with one stone. If it work better for you, then by all means import the clips into your DAW and add a touch of High Shelf and notch out a bit in the low mids. Wouldn't offend me in the least. As I said before, this also goes for levels. In fact, I would argue that this is the very least you should do.

At this point I am seriously considering doing a shootout between just the Pacifica and the Great River using an SM57. Would that be better? I'm open to any suggestions from those who are interested in this comparison. Let me know.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[James Lugo]

C2 sounded the fattest to me.

Thanks for the clips man. Now I'm gonna do a '4 minute mic pre shootout', take it the other way...lol

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

C2 sounded the fattest to me.

Thanks for the clips man. Now I'm gonna do a '4 minute mic pre shootout', take it the other way...lol

LOL! Thanks man. Like I said in your post, you got a way better guitar sound than me for your clips. Hmmm...anyone up for a 30 minute shootout!

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Windshore]

OK, I downloaded the 24 bit files and listened on the studio monitors. I have to agree the C2 stood out.... but I liked the D1 as well.... different flavors, but both very cool. As far as which is which... I'll wait for the results show!
thanks!

[gm5k]

gotta go with C2!

[cramseur]

c2 here, but they all sounded like crap to me.

( I listened to the 24 bit files on Event ASP8's) They were all relatively muddy sounding...characteristic of the ribbon mic, I presume.

[preben]

I prefer C2 as it's the one that has the most midrange bite or grit to my ears. But then again I actually LIKE guitars to have midrange

Second favourite is the C1 and my least favourties are B and D1

[UnDeFiNeD]

downloading them right now, but very slow so it will be something for tommorow. (europe)
Just wanted to say I love these blind shootouts, really keeps out the snobbery (is that a word?) out of the reply's, cause slutz can't rely on brand and experience anymore, and have to acctually use those ears!

Tnx for the work, keep it up!

[PhilRanger]

Originally Posted by UnDeFiNeD

Just wanted to say I love these blind shootouts, really keeps out the snobbery (is that a word?) out of the reply's, cause slutz can't rely on brand and experience anymore, and have to acctually use those ears!

Tnx for the work, keep it up!

Agreed.

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by UnDeFiNeD

downloading them right now, but very slow so it will be something for tommorow. (europe)
Just wanted to say I love these blind shootouts, really keeps out the snobbery (is that a word?) out of the reply's, cause slutz can't rely on brand and experience anymore, and have to acctually use those ears!

Tnx for the work, keep it up!

Well, thank you for taking a listen! And you are correct, snobbery is a word and I agree that for a truly unbiased assessment it is important to make it a blind test. Even people with the best intentions can be influenced by their own biases.

Regarding this test, I really do think I tried to do too much at once. I am 99% sure that I'm going to redo this test using just the Great River and Pacifica. In addition, I'm going to go back to using an SM57 because I think that is a more common frame of reference for most listeners. Granted, I could have done a better job with the R121 if I'd spent a little more time. This time I'll make sure the recording technique and general tone of the clips is not a distraction.

Having criticized my own efforts here, I will say that I was amazed at just how different the preamps were from each other. It was arguably subtle, but not as subtle as I expected. In particular, I was amazed at what a difference it made by changing the settings for the two preamps that have two clips. I think this is something we all need to keep in mind when posting and listening to sound clips.

Again, thanks for listening. I'll post the results tomorrow.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[NOCCA]

C2 and D1 over here.

[James Lugo]

For me it doesn't matter blind or non-blind. I actually like non-blind because I never seem to make it back to the thread to find out who is who. I get busy at work and start gearslutin' less at times. I don't know which pre is C2 and I may never know.

James

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

For me it doesn't matter blind or non-blind. I actually like non-blind because I never seem to make it back to the thread to find out who is who. I get busy at work and start gearslutin' less at times. I don't know which pre is C2 and I may never know.

James

I'll pm you with the results tomorrow James. That goes for anyone else who thinks they might not make it back to the thread. Just send me your username.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Brad McGowan]

Hi Mike,

I think the bottom line for a lot of people listening to the clips is that the mic wasn't in the best spot, or perhaps the guitar tone wasn't what they wanted to hear so therefore the tone of the preamp kind of takes a back seat. I think that kind of mirrors the way we prioritize getting good sounds in the first place: make the amp sound good, then stick the mic in a good spot. Then the preamp comes into play.

Brad

[mdsmith64]

Hey Brad, how's it going? Yep, agreed (see about three posts up where I say essentially the same thing). Look for a new test this weekend. I still think it's worth the effort since so many people seem interested to know how these preamps perform on distorted guitars. Hope things are going well at Little Red Wagon Studios. You're keeping busy I'm sure.

Best Regards,

Mike.

[Brad McGowan]

I like the midrange presence C2 has. Hmmm...maybe I should re-evaluate my lack of use of that preamp on electric guitars. It is sounding rather good. D1 and D2 are very nice too.

Brad

[mdsmith64]

Originally Posted by Brad McGowan

I like the midrange presence C2 has. Hmmm...maybe I should re-evaluate my lack of use of that preamp on electric guitars. It is sounding rather good. D1 and D2 are very nice too.

Brad

Hee hee...your'e killing me! Too funny! You owe me a burrito dammit! You burrito junkie you!

Best Regards,

Mike.