Does the Vintech X73i really have St Ives transformers?

[choodelphia]

Just wondering because the parts in my X73i dont resemble any pictures of St. Ives transformers that I've seen. Perhaps they are just different makes or models?

Regardless, I love the sound!

[jdjustice]

i don't believe it does; i think the X73 is the model with all those goodies (St. Ives transformers, hand-wired Elma rotary switches, Clarostat output level control etc)....
the X73i makes some compromises on the name brand parts but that's how Dallas is able to produce them for a really reasonable price!!

[biggator6]

When I got my X73i - I was told (I believe directly from Vintech) that the guts are the same.. they only changed to cheaper pots (the dual-concentric on the 73 are expensive) and added some mid frequency points on the EQ.

[jdjustice]

Originally Posted by biggator6

When I got my X73i - I was told (I believe directly from Vintech) that the guts are the same.. they only changed to cheaper pots (the dual-concentric on the 73 are expensive) and added some mid frequency points on the EQ.

yep, i think you are correct. the guts are the same it's just the switches and pots and the EQ points that are slightly different. thumbsup

[squeegybug]

Here is what was in my X73i:














All Carnhill.

Steve

[choodelphia]

Wow!

The transformers in the X73i that I just bought dont say Carnhill on them and they dont look like the ones in your pictures. The aren't red and blue, they are silver.

What's the deal with that? Did they change the transformers? The ones in mine dont say Carnhill or St.Ives.

Anyone know?

[bc184c]

Originally Posted by choodelphia

Wow!

The transformers in the X73i that I just bought dont say Carnhill on them and they dont look like the ones in your pictures. The aren't red and blue, they are silver.

What's the deal with that? Did they change the transformers? The ones in mine dont say Carnhill or St.Ives.

Anyone know?

We decided to stop using the Carnhill transformers about two years ago. We discovered that the coil inductance values of the Carhill output transformers was a bit low when compared to the Marinair LO1166 transformers originally used in the 1073. This inductance difference causes a slight reduction in performance at very low frequencies when levels are pushed to around plus 20db. Although this very low frequency difference is basically inaudible in almost any practical listening test, we decided to try to use transformers, especially the output transformer, that more closely met the Marinair inductance spec.

We decided to use custom transformers (both input and output) that are made with the same bobbins, winding techniques, wire gauges, laminations, etc. as the original Marinairs. We have found that the inductance specs and consequently, low frequency distortion characteristics, more closely emulate those of the vintage transformers. These transformers are very high quality, custom wound and are in no way made "offshore".

We did a big shootout last Jan. 16 in Nashville between our X73's, which contained the new custom transformers, and four different vintage Neve 1073's. Many well known professional recording engineers both supervised and participated in the listening tests. The results were that the average ability to pick our X73's out from a line up of 1073's was at or below pure chance alone.

Thank you,
Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by bc184c

We decided to use custom transformers (both input and output) that are made with the same bobbins, winding techniques, wire gauges, laminations, etc. as the original Marinairs. We have found that the inductance specs and consequently, low frequency distortion characteristics, more closely emulate those of the vintage transformers. These transformers are very high quality, custom wound and are in no way made "offshore".

What manufacturer are you using now for your transformers?... and how do you now that they're the same winding techniques as the original Marinairs...?

Also do you have any documentation that the Carnhills had coil inductance values that differed with the Marinairs?

I'm curious of the topic of L01166 transformers, and have done some testing of many of the different manufacturer's versions out there...

[bc184c]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

What manufacturer are you using now for your transformers?... and how do you now that they're the same winding techniques as the original Marinairs...?

I and a long time transformer maker (who shall remain nameless) broke down several original Marinair LO1166 transformers and counted the windings, noted the sequence of coil interleaving, numbers of turns for each coil, direction of windings, details about the laminations, noted specifications about the thickness of the gap between the "E" and "I" laminations, wire gauges, etc.
We know through direct observation, ongoing supervision and electrical verification that the transformers are being made correctly.

Also do you have any documentation that the Carnhills had coil inductance values that differed with the Marinairs?

All you have to do is take an old Marinair LO1166 and one of the Carnhills and measure the inductance across the coils. You can also quite easily compare the in circuit distortion characterisitics between the two transformers. If you'd like me to print it out on an Audio Precision, let me know. I will repeat however that the difference between the Marinair and the Carnhill outputs is basically inaudible and doesn't become apparent in distortion tests until you reach an ouput level of about plus 20db at a frequency of about 25 hz.

I'm curious of the topic of L01166 transformers, and have done some testing of many of the different manufacturer's versions out there...

That's cool Tony. Since you've done some comparisons already, if you'd like to participate in some blind listening tests between our X73 and vintage 1073's, I'd be glad to try to set something up where you and other high profile engineers could participate as sort of "a panel of experts".

Thanks,
Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by bc184c

I and a long time transformer maker (who shall remain nameless) broke down several original Marinair LO1166 transformers and counted the windings, noted the sequence of coil interleaving, numbers of turns for each coil, direction of windings, details about the laminations, noted specifications about the thickness of the gap between the "E" and "I" laminations, wire gauges, etc.
We know through direct observation, ongoing supervision and electrical verification that the transformers are being made correctly.

I'm pretty sure Carnhill did the same thing when they started making them as well. But, breaking down the transformer would not show you the technique they used to wind the transformer. Also, the quality of the iron now-a-days is not up to the same standards, so it is virtually impossible to exactly duplicate the OG Marinair.

All you have to do is take an old Marinair LO1166 and one of the Carnhills and measure the inductance across the coils. You can also quite easily compare the in circuit distortion characterisitics between the two transformers. If you'd like me to print it out on an Audio Precision, let me know. I will repeat however that the difference between the Marinair and the Carnhill outputs is basically inaudible and doesn't become apparent in distortion tests until you reach an ouput level of about plus 20db at a frequency of about 25 hz.

I, along with a friend, have done pretty extensive testing with the Marinair and Carnhill and while I'm not quite ready to go "on the record" with my findings... I can say there is a difference between them, but there is also a difference between one Marinair and the next. More research is needed. Most of the modern L01166's are pretty close to the next, except for one manufacturer that shall remain nameless.

That's cool Tony. Since you've done some comparisons already, if you'd like to participate in some blind listening tests between our X73 and vintage 1073's, I'd be glad to try to set something up where you and other high profile engineers could participate as sort of "a panel of experts".

I'm concentrating on my own 1073's, and 1073 experiments at this time. Maybe at some point in the future you can send me a sample of this transformer...

I would love to see a picture of the new transformer you have next to the Marinair you've been testing it against if possible...

[customxfrms]

We are now making an equivalent LO1166 for several manufacturers that post on these boards. If anyone is interested, contact Altran Corporation in Crystal Lake, IL.

[bushwick]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I was under the assumption that the exact mettalurgical content of the laminations is not being produced by any of the lamination manufacturers. Has anyone verified with a mass spectrometer?

josh

[choodelphia]

Thanks for the reply Dallas.

Whatever the case may be, my X73i sounds beautiful and HUGE!! The tone is amazing too!

Thanks for a great product!

Kevin

[True North]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Also, the quality of the iron now-a-days is not up to the same standards.

OK - that is just plain f'n hilarious

How in gods name do you know if the iron in Vintech's transformers are of lower quality. What standards and measurements did you settle on to make that judgement? Have you done comparative metallurgical studies on the iron used in both transformers to definitively make that statement? Are you inferring that all things equal you could tell the difference in sound between a transformer made with 'inferior' Iron ??

Tony you are a a great guy and really knowledgable , but duuude, come on !! That statement is pure nonsense.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by True North

OK - that is just plain f'n hilarious

How in gods name do you know if the iron in Vintech's transformers are of lower quality. What standards and measurements did you settle on to make that judgement? Have you done comparative metallurgical studies on the iron used in both transformers to definitively make that statement? Are you inferring that all things equal you could tell the difference in sound between a transformer made with 'inferior' Iron ??

Tony you are a a great guy and really knowledgable , but duuude, come on !! That statement is pure nonsense.

It has been theorized that the reason old transformers generally sound better, is because the quality of iron available in decades past was much better. I've had discussions with transformer winders who have come flat out and said that the transformers they wound 30 years ago were better than the one's they wind today for this reason.

The standard for iron production is not the same as it was in the 60's & 70's... and the quality of iron readily available is not to the same. This applies to all transformer manufacturers... no bullshit. I don't care to comment of the Vintech transformer because I have never seen one, or tested one.

[Silvertone]

Originally Posted by True North

OK - that is just plain f'n hilarious

How in gods name do you know if the iron in Vintech's transformers are of lower quality. What standards and measurements did you settle on to make that judgement? Have you done comparative metallurgical studies on the iron used in both transformers to definitively make that statement? Are you inferring that all things equal you could tell the difference in sound between a transformer made with 'inferior' Iron ??

Tony you are a a great guy and really knowledgable , but duuude, come on !! That statement is pure nonsense.

I'm afraid Tony may be right here. I had a three hour confersation with Anthony DiMaria on the purity of iron just a couple months ago. In his remake of the Fairchild 670, he actually has to buy iron from out of the country to match what we had here 50 years ago. Part is due to the fact that we don't really get pure iron anymore. A certain amount of recycled iron is added into the majority of iron produced in the US today. That and the purity of the copper is different as well from what I've been told. This has come from several manufactures I know and not just in the audio industry.

It makes sense. On top of this, they (the EPA in this case) keep taking out all the good old carcinogens and now the gear doesn't even smell the same anymore ; ) and I love the smell of gear! Soon even soldering wont even be the same.

[bc184c]

In the development of our output transformers we found it absolutely true that the quality of iron can vary greatly from one supplier to another.

Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[True North]

Originally Posted by Silvertone

I'm afraid Tony may be right here. I had a three hour confersation with Anthony DiMaria on the purity of iron just a couple months ago. In his remake of the Fairchild 670, he actually has to buy iron from out of the country to match what we had here 50 years ago.

Well yes and no. I do stand corrected on one issue, I was not aware that Iron quality had varied greatly over the years.

NOW, whether or not a human being could tell the difference in sound between higher quality Iron and lower quality Iron is huge question mark for me and perhaps discussion for another thread.

HOWEVER, the inference being made was Vintech was not capable of reproducing the marinair transformers because of; (1) winding techniques - (2) Iron Quality - and this is where my alarm bells go off and my questions, for the most part, remain the same.

SO, my point was how does anyone know the quality of Iron in the Vintech transfomers VS marinairs unless they had specific criteria, measurements and testing to make such a judgement. AFAIK - no one has gone through the metallurgical testing to make that determination. We can make assumptions - BUT, when you assume you.................well you know the rest.

Originally Posted by Silvertone

Part is due to the fact that we don't really get pure iron anymore. A certain amount of recycled iron is added into the majority of iron produced in the US today.

Originally Posted by bc184c

In the development of our output transformers we found it absolutely true that the quality of iron can vary greatly from one supplier to another. The laminations we're using also come from outside of this country.

Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[bushwick]

Hey Dallas-

Before I ask this next question it should be known that I own 4 x81's and a 609CA and love the damn hell out of them. I think the stuff sounds wonderful and fact is, I am saving up to buy some more x81's. But I am still left very curious. Have these laminations been verified to have the exact same mettalurgical content using a mass spectrometer as the originals? I would love to know that someone is custom ordering their lamination materials. A real step in the right direction.

All the best,
josh

[Geoff_T]

Hi

I'd just like to chime in here but preface this by saying it's a general "Neve transformer" post and nothing at all to do with products used by other manufacturers.

The thread is going an odd way with this talk of Spectral Analysis because it's ignoring the elephant in the room. The impact of human wisdom and hard earned techniques in the design and manufacture of a product. You don't measure this with inductance bridges, spectrometers, or other devices... you measure it with your ears!

If we explore the facts thus far, taking only the output transformer as the example, this device was designed and manufactured by Marinair Radar in 1966 as a result of discussions between Neve (the company) and Marinair. Marinair weren't the only guys making the transformer but there's no point in mentioning the name of the other company because nobody there even remembers doing it now!

The fact is that St Ives/Carnhill never made the 1166 transformer and were never given a Neve EM****** specification as to how to build one.

That did not stop them from reverse engineering (or so they thought) the 1166 and selling it to a wide variety of Neve clone companies.

Until Neve, as AMS-Neve at the time, decided to reissue the 1073 and 1084 range of modules and needed transformers now that Marinair and A.N.other could no longer provide them.

When Carnhill sent Neve samples of their transformer I am told that it took five attempts before their transformer met the Neve specs. This despite them using the correct laminations, correct bobbin, correct wire, correct number of turns and presumably correct measured parameters with their original versions.

It just goes to show that it's not THAT easy to reverse engineer a product, but it's not impossible.... you just have to be attune to the thoughts of the original designer.

This applies to lots of things, not just transformers. It could be valves/tubes, semi-conductors, even copies of entire products. Do they sound the same? Probably close enough that the difference doesn't matter....

But that teeny, teeeny, difference is enough to start a thread here!

[bc184c]

Originally Posted by bushwick

Hey Dallas-

Before I ask this next question it should be known that I own 4 x81's and a 609CA and love the damn hell out of them. I think the stuff sounds wonderful and fact is, I am saving up to buy some more x81's. But I am still left very curious. Have these laminations been verified to have the exact same mettalurgical content using a mass spectrometer as the originals? I would love to know that someone is custom ordering their lamination materials. A real step in the right direction.

All the best,
josh

Hi Josh,
We haven't done any metallurgical tests to verify the exact same composition of the laminations, but we have done inductance and capacitance measurements and various in circuit tests to verify that the transformers work correctly. The material the laminations are made from is called M6 grain oriented silicon steel, and this material can be sourced from various suppliers throughout the world. I suspect it would be nearly impossible to find any two batches of this material that are "exactly" the same metalurgically, but as I said before, we have found that some sources of these laminations are better than others.
Thanks,
Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[True North]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

The thread is going an odd way with this talk of Spectral Analysis because it's ignoring the elephant in the room.

I argree - but I hope to clarify that I was in no way suggesting that someone test the Iron in Marinair and Vintech transformers. I just simply thought that it was extremely odd to make assumptions about the composition of a companies product without really knowing. As I stated I earlier , even if you could determine a difference, who here would be comfortable in definitively stating that they could consistently identify the sound of a transofrmer based on the metallurgical content of the iron used in the transformer ???

Dallas and his company, have never to my knowledge, really laid claim to having the exact same components as the original neves he is replicating. As far as I have understood he always focused on the sound of the unit being indistinguishable from an original Neve 1073 or 1081. He could be using recycled slinky's for his transfomers for all I care, can the products live up to the claims and do they sound good, that is all that matters.

At the very minimum, at least he has undertaken to test his claims, with some respected names and ears in a controlled studio environment. In the end let your ears do the listening and the rest will take of itself.

Cheers

P.S. - I don't own a Vintech unit, so I have no vested or unnannounced interest in proving something, I'm just sayin........

[Mark Cattano]

Gentleman,

There are lots of brighter minds than mine debating something here that is way over my limited ability to comprehend. I haven't been posting much lately, I've been busy finishing a record in my home studio using my Vintech X73I's almost exclusively. I've been writing and recording music for over twenty years, and would never pretend to know everything. I don't. But I know what sounds good. And all of the talented musicians whom I've worked with on this latest recording do, too (you guys know who you are, thank you!). The point is, these Vintech mic pres sound fantastic, I'm not being paid to say that, and that's what really matters to me, as a humble end-user.

Mark Cattano
Magneto Studios
www.heedmusic.com
www.myspace/markcattano

[E.rOk.stA]

Thread resurrection. Does anyone know who makes Vintech's trannys now?

[Blewgrass]

Here's mine... whado I got?

Looks different than the guy above me? Do I have the transformers from secret agent guy, hence the lack of markings? The channel strip sounds fantastic compared to anything I've owned before, so hats off to Dallas no matter what transformers I have.

[NathanEldred]

They are custom transformers, they have been for a few years now.

[E.rOk.stA]

Yeah, that's how my guts look too. I was just curious about the specifics. I gather it's sorta' hush-hush.

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by the Set Surgeon

Yeah, that's how my guts look too. I was just curious about the specifics. I gather it's sorta' hush-hush.

I've known who makes them for some time now (this thread is from 2006). But, for some reason they don't want that information made public. So, I will respect their wishes.

[E.rOk.stA]

Does Dallas just want the actual manufacturer to be nameless or the whole tranny design period? I just wanted to know where they were made and what tranny these current ones are trying to emulate.

[shanabit]

My guess would be CHINA