Best signal splitter/ DI question/phase issues

[DavidKmusic]

I've read up on a lot of pieces for splitting bass and guitar signals for multiple signal tracking I'm going to need to try some stuff but I'm hoping you guys can answer some of my questions first.

1) Your best splitter for sending bass to DI or preamp and to amp/cab or amp/Palmer speaker sim?

2) Is there any point, aside from utilizing the tone presets, to running a bass through an Avalon U5 or other DI before running it into a good pre such as my Great River ME1 or API 7600?

3) When splitting a bass signal> one clean direct, and one to an amp for some character and/or dirt, I've heard some guys like to use a guitar amp for the distorted track. I have a 6 watt class A Savage amp that I'd like to try this with by cranking it up and running it's output to a speaker sim (better for the amp I assume?) Does anyone have any experience with doing this?

Lastly, I've heard about phase issues when tracking multiple signals but I need some help in understanding what causes that and exactly how common that is, and if I need to be conscious of that when choosing a splitting device. I know that Little Labs makes a device that can correct phase issues on the way in.

Thanks everyone!

[tINY]

1) and 2) are related. Once you get the first stage of amplification, you can wire the amp and DI in parallel.

Phase issues are just that. Best stategy is to use a HPF on one of the signals. If you have phase issues at lower frequencies (like below 250Hz) then you can sound thin or muddy or plain wierd. Phase effects in the upper register are more charater than a problem.....


-tINY

[DavidKmusic]

Originally Posted by tINY

1) and 2) are related. Once you get the first stage of amplification, you can wire the amp and DI in parallel.

Phase issues are just that. Best stategy is to use a HPF on one of the signals. If you have phase issues at lower frequencies (like below 250Hz) then you can sound thin or muddy or plain wierd. Phase effects in the upper register are more charater than a problem.....


-tINY

Okay, I'm somewhat following you but could you, or someone, please elaborate a bit on this response? I'm guessing that the DI is the first stage, but how do you then wire the amp and DI in parallel? How does a high pass resolve phase problems?

I understand what it sounds like when something is out of phase, ie with drum mics, etc. but I guess I don't really have a full grasp of the concept.

Also, can anyone else chime in on their preference for splitter boxes, and my other questions in the original post?

Thanks!

[Blast9]

As far as the guitar amp, speaker or speaker sim will do the trick. A speaker may technically be better as it has variable load at various frequs whereas a loadbox may just have a fixed impedance... I'll let teh tech heads confirm

If the signal craps out or is really farty and indistinct/not crisp and crunchy,
try an EQ before the amp, and cut the bass freqs --- or cut the bass on the amp itself.

Phase issues will become apparent if you have DI and are micing a cab from a distance. If the mic is right on the speaker you should be fine.

I use a sansamp bass driver DI, and it has a useful parallel out for the direct sound, so you could use this as a splitter. So you could use the amp-sim character of the sansamp and mult it to a preamp or amp for another tone.

[tINY]

If you have two paths, you get cancelation when signals are out of phase.

Good.

At low frequencies, the delay is often due to electronics, not acoustic distance. Also, the low frequency nulls are not usually spaced far apart, so you get big holes and 6dB peaks in the response. If you limit the low frequency so that it only comes from one path, you get no phase cancellations down there.....



-tINY

[DavidKmusic]

Originally Posted by tINY

At low frequencies, the delay is often due to electronics, not acoustic distance. Also, the low frequency nulls are not usually spaced far apart, so you get big holes and 6dB peaks in the response. If you limit the low frequency so that it only comes from one path, you get no phase cancellations down there.....

I see, thank you

I'm more of a live mixer than recording studio, but it is common when using DIs to send the parellel jack from the DI box to the amp - simply splitting the instrument output with a Y cable - it will only work properly if you have a high impedance in the DI so it doesn't load down the instrument or amp input...

All the above posts are talking about how it gets recorded and/or mixed, not how to split the signal. I'd split it before the DI, or use something with a parellel amp output.

Thsi is a puzzle for me with DI inputs on good pres - they don't have a parellel out to feed the amp simultaneously. But the idea of a reamp can be used after recording the direct to tape or disk.

Does this help any?

<L>

[DavidKmusic]

Originally Posted by Lou Judson

I'm more of a live mixer than recording studio, but it is common when using DIs to send the parellel jack from the DI box to the amp - simply splitting the instrument output with a Y cable - it will only work properly if you have a high impedance in the DI so it doesn't load down the instrument or amp input...

All the above posts are talking about how it gets recorded and/or mixed, not how to split the signal. I'd split it before the DI, or use something with a parellel amp output.

Thsi is a puzzle for me with DI inputs on good pres - they don't have a parellel out to feed the amp simultaneously. But the idea of a reamp can be used after recording the direct to tape or disk.

Does this help any?

<L>

Yes, Reamping makes a lot of sense. I'm stull unsure of the best way to split direct and amp'd signal though

[Blast9]

Going by what Lou Judson posted, I'd use a splitter first. make sure the splitter has high impedance instrument jacks (eg the Boss LS2 is specifically designed to split into 2 amps. its also buffered --- others are tranformer isolated, and expensive.).



A few options:

Little labs PCP distro (6 ways!)

Boss LS2 --- cheap, not a huge amount of headroom, but works very well

Lehle P-split passive splitter --- xformer isolated

Radial switchbone

***

Gtr >>>> splitter 1st output >>> Amp
................splitter 2nd output >>> DI >>> mic preamp

***

Just an idea

[Blast9]

Originally Posted by DavidKmusic

1) Your best splitter for sending bass to DI or preamp and to amp/cab or amp/Palmer speaker sim?

PS Let me just reiterate about the Sansamp bass Driver DI...

You can use it exactly for this purpose:

Firstly you can use it as just a DI box when in bypass. You can split the 3 ways.

Secondly you can use it as an amp sim and uneffected signal signal going to separate amps/mic pre/dedicated instrument inputs.

Use xlr to send the DI or effected signal to a desk/mic pre

Use the 1st jack to carry the effected or instrument level signal to an amp.

Use the parallel jack to send the uneffected sound to another amp/instrument input

[Gabriel Sousa]

i need a splitter too.

there are good hardware splitters ?

[DavidKmusic]

Originally Posted by Blast9

PS Let me just reiterate about the Sansamp bass Driver DI...

You can use it exactly for this purpose:

Firstly you can use it as just a DI box when in bypass. You can split the 3 ways.

Secondly you can use it as an amp sim and uneffected signal signal going to separate amps/mic pre/dedicated instrument inputs.

Use xlr to send the DI or effected signal to a desk/mic pre

Use the 1st jack to carry the effected or instrument level signal to an amp.

Use the parallel jack to send the uneffected sound to another amp/instrument input

Thanks for all the help. I'm considering the Little Labs Distro, Lehle splitter and/or the Sans amp you recommended.