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| | #1 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter | Starting a Label?
I am close to starting my own label and i need some advice. First of all - my market is limited to southern california/tropical islands ... mostly reggae stuff... so my situation might be different than a mainstream pop startup... (i.e. - maybe easier for me) I have done tons of research and found that I already have many of the steps completed! 1) I am close to having a completed cd from a great band. (I have paid for all studio/mixing/mastering out of pocket...and I also recorded some of it my home studio, thus saving money). All songs are original ... most written by me! 2) Label and CD Artwork are completed and professional looking (from a buddy). I paid my buddy a flat fee and had him sign an informal contract stating that he cannot ask for anything more. 3) I will be paying for manufacturing of the CD out of pocket. 4) Already have independent promoters chompin at the bit to work with me So basically, I will have a big stack of 1000 packaged CDs from an awesome band sitting at my house... now what? (now I mean totally packaged!! 12 original songs mixed/mastered ready to sale...all paid for by me personally!) people are saying: a) get a lawyer to write up contracts (but why? Can't I just do that myself?) b) File a ficticious business name with the state c) get a UPC code d) trademark logo/business name The band is on my butt to get them contracts ... they want details... but I am not sure what kind of deal to give them ... how bad do I need a lawyer/accountant??? Can't I write up informal agreements between the band and I??? I mean, I wrote most of fthe songs and came up with the beats/basslines!! I feel like I spent so much personal time, money, and creativity... I want to ensure my involvement in the reward by BEING the label as well! Also, why do ALL the work and hand it to another label to take a majority percentage?!?! Thanks for your advice. |
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| | #2 | |
| Gear maniac Joined: Aug 2003 Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 283
| Quote:
But seriously --> you haven't even started the work of being a label. You may have done all the work with regard to making the music, but the business of a record label has nothing to do with making music. It's about marketing, promotion, sales, and bottom lines. Not much different from pharmaceutical sales or theme parks in that regard, really. Having said that... if you're gonna do it, YES, an attorney is absolutely important. Hiring a competent and experienced one is critical. One could argue that you're late in involving one since the music has already been recorded and paid for by you (a lesson I've learned the hard way!).
__________________ Daniel Holter "After silence that which expresses the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley | |
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| | #3 | |
| Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado
Posts: 760
| Quote:
I know this sounds harsh but the band has not committed to anything. Legally they can walk away with their recordings and you have already spent money on their cd.........no one has laid out who pays what. If you did not even discuss recouping your recording costs and bill them for the time. Who has the upper hand here? you stated that "I wrote most of of the songs and came up with the beats/basslines, but think about it, where is your proof if this gets ugly. I dunno, I am coming from a paranoid standpoint because I have seen the damage these informal relationships can do to a business. Good luck and have fun!
__________________ Singer, Songwriter, Musician.............Dad. "You're so money and you don't even know it!" | |
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| | #4 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,493
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amen to all the foregoing responders. in light of your description of things, first thing i'd do if i were you is head to borders books or b&n, etc. tonight, peruse the music business shelves and sit down at their cafe with copies of "this business of music" (review the generic form contracts in the appendix if nothing else), passman's book, and whatever other stuff there seems to catch your eye. as an aside, i was visiting the "rock 'n roll hall of fame" in cleveland a few years back when visiting my folks in that town, and in a display case on "grunge rock" there was the original sub pop records contract for Soundgarden. and having by that point read 3 or 4 editions of "this business of music" cover to cover, i recognized right away that the agreement was copied verbatim out of the back of that book. in fact, about 1/3 down the first page, the pen they were using ran out and they switched colors from blue to black (or vice versa - i can't remember exactly which). i thought that was pretty funny, and quite in keeping with the whole grunge aesthetic. if you draw up your own agreement, you may want to include the language that the agreement is effective "nunc pro tunc" the date you began writing, recording, spending money, whatever with these guys. at least then if the band signs the agreement they will be acknowledging that the work/spend to date is covered under the terms of the contract. i've seen this film many times before. and it usually doesn't have a happy ending. i hope at a minimum (but doubt) that you didn't give these guys any copies of the mixes to listen to other than on cassette or 54kbps mp3! otherwise, you've just bought yourself 1000 coasters if they decide to walk, and they'll be taking the mixes with them. best of luck, vic |
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| | #6 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter |
but I am IN the band... I wrote all the songs and created all the beats ... I will be singing all the songs on the CD... so it is in effect MY OWN band... so I am in a tight spot of how to do business "with myself"... (despite having "done business with myself" twice a day since I was 15!!! hhahahaha just kidding!)Its sorta like this: 1) on one hand I had all these tunes in my head and original beats 2) in the otherhand I had a band that played cover songs around town... I decided to present my songs to my band and have them learn their respective parts... but then they started demanding that we split all profits if they were to take part... sheesh! I kinda felt like I was doing them a favor by letting them COPY my created beats and basslines and get credit for playing them on the CD!! so now I am taking up the role of the producer and label in order to protect my work from others ... including my own band (who seem to have gotten a greedy edge lately)!! I need contracts for them to sign so that the music is effectively mine (as the label) even though it should already be mine since I did prototypes of all the songs earlier!! ... but what percentage/points do they get, etc...??? I dont want to write something up prematurely without having a clue what the norm is and what kind of expenses I should be reimbursed for... is this what the entertainment lawyer can help with? thanks for all info! |
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| | #7 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado
Posts: 760
| ardy-don't confuse publishing rights with mechanical royalties. Record labels pay two royalties: The first is a record royalty to the performing artist(s); the second is a mechanical royalty to composers and publishers. If you write a song by yourself, you own the publishing (and copyright) from the moment you finish the song. You don't have to set up shop as a music publisher to own those rights - they automatically come with authorship. the other guys in your band should be thought of as your "partners". They should be considered a preforming artist. Take vixapphire's advice and read some books. Yes the Lawyer can help you out if he has worked on these kind of deals before, but for all practical purposes...the other guys should have a Lawyer as well to represent them in getting a fair deal.
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| | #8 |
| Motown legend Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN
Posts: 10,879
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Another good place for research is the law library associated with your local county court. Only members of the local Bar can generally check out books but anybody can ask to read, do some research and make notes. I learned enough from a few visits to spot several lawyers who were posers that didn't really know their stuff. Once you get your feet wet, this stuff isn't hard to understand. If more people did their homework and held lawyers' feet to the fire, there'd be lots fewer rip-offs in the music business.
__________________ Bob's room 615 562-4346 Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Music Industry 2.0 Interview |
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| | #9 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter |
are mechanical royalties the same as the royalties Ascap pays? For example, I wrote a tune for a different popular band and registered as the writer and publisher of that song through Ascap ... now I get 2 checks in the mail from ascap every quarter ... should I also be getting mechanical royalties from the label that released the album too?? also, I will be doing alot more reading in the next few weeks... in the meantime is there a way that I can create a quick informal contract that gives me full rights to recordings that my band just did??? I can figure out the points contract later... but for now I just need a simple contract stating I own everything about those recordings...any way to do that? It would give me a warm and fuzzy in the interim... thanks again |
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| | #10 | |
| Gear addict Joined: May 2006 Location: VA
Posts: 419
| Quote:
But, first...listen to Bob. He knows a ton and is a staunch supporter of musicians getting their due. Maybe I misunderstand. However, I dont think, at this point..you can demand that you own everything, after the fact. You wrote the songs..(manilow, anyone?), paid for the studio time, etc. But, these people played on it, and it sounds like you promised one thing, and want to deliver another tutt They may have had free recording on your dime, but I think you really run the risk of having these guys demand compensation, if you are going to run off with all of it. I would focus on shopping it to an existing label or sell it at gigs. If you never promised them anything, then thats fine, they can demand all they want. But,as a rule..dont treat "contracts" as informal. Wish you luck. -D
__________________ "Dont you see it? It's our island...that's where we have to go.."-Snitter __________________________ www.myspace.com/tremorsaudio Last edited by TREMORS; 7th November 2006 at 01:46 AM.. Reason: clarity | |
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| | #11 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2006 Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles de Porciuncula
Posts: 3,622
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do u need to open a company? if so... its not that hard. do u want a "sole propiership" ? (you own your business and if u loose a lawsuite they can come after your personal belongings) (but the paper work is easier to register) or an "S corporation"? (they come after your company belongings but u have to pay taxes of your company and taxes from the salary your company is giving you) either way you have to file a couple of forms to the secretary of state which is like $300 (im in CA too) and itll count anywhere in the US. but not in the islands. youll have to get a business license locally. you have to go downtown and its like $30 and free on january in CA!. after u get the stamped certificate back from the secretary of state you call the IRS and ask them for an EIN number. they ask u if its a corp or a sole propership or a partnership (not recomended) and theyll give a number over the phone after u have the EIN number and the certificate u open a business bank account. and add the amount of money u specify in your paperwork (i opened mine with $400 and all the 400 share of $1 are all mine,) you can find templates online on how to fill out paperwork on the net. i forgot the name of the site but theres a few. or u can pay $1000+ for a lawyer to tell u basiccally the same thing and only filling out stuff he has as a template from the same websites. 1) fill out type of business form and mail it to the secretary of state 2) get a business license locally 3) get an EIN number from the IRS 4) open business bank account. |
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| | #12 | |
| Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2006 Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles de Porciuncula
Posts: 3,622
| Quote:
you just need to register your song in the copyrite office. thats it.your band cant touch them at all. if one of the members "sell"s you song to mcdonalds for a comercial , then easily just hire a lawyer cause youll be able to pay for it and you have the right to get whats owe to you. if u put out a CD then the songs are yours and u get songwriter royalties for them . you also get performing royalties same as your musicians. thats the deal with every label /artist that its considered fair. if the rest of the band wants songwirter royalties them tell them to write their own songs!. beware , if when u are composing, the bass player says " dude i think i like having a D instead of a G in that measure" or " ill play it an ocave higher" then you'll have to share 50/50 songwriter credit with him no matter if you did 95% of everything. fact of the matter is that you both where in the same room at the same time when the song was written. (if u think in a matlock sort of way) i know it sucks. and if u open up a lable then 80% of the sales go to you... and probalby one of the major distributors. hmmm , thinking about it, the distributor wll get that 80%. | |
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| | #13 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado
Posts: 760
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| | #14 |
| Gear addict Joined: May 2006 Location: VA
Posts: 419
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| | #15 | |
| Gear maniac Joined: Mar 2004 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 229
| Quote:
The only drag is that incorporating costs some money, but I will protect you in the long run. Good luck. | |
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| | #16 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,726
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If you're coming from a DIY no-budget-for-attorneys perspective you could: Draw up a simply co-writer contract for each song that a band member thinks he helped you write. Perhaps you could discuss percentages if their 'co-writing' work was done after the song was written. Say give a 20% writer's share if the guy came up with a hook lick or something. It's important to keep the relationship cordial, because as soon as it gets adversarial, you're going to be screwed. Draw up a budget for how to spend the proceeds of CD sales. Say 50% goes to the band, including you, in equal shares. The other 50% goes to pay for expenses, which would be the cost of the pressing, artwork, and studio time, plus the writer royalties, which would be around 8 cents per song per CD sold. (I don't know the current figure, but at that rate, with a 10 song CD, the writer royalty would be 80 cents for each CD sold. But you don't get the writer royalty for promo CD's, and there will be a lot of those.) Keep in mind that if you're going to get paid for engineering, the band members should also get paid for session work. It's silly, but it's a formality that might make them feel like they're not being taken advantage of. Then, after all expenses are paid, you could kick back that 50% to the band, minus the writer royalties, which always have to come off the top. Or keep enough in the account for a second pressing if you need more CD's. If the band guys start complaining about your writer's royalties, encourage them to start co-writing for the next CD. It's important to keep the forward momentum, and to keep them from feeling taken advantage of. You either have to include them in the process or hire a backup band, and that can get really expensive. Then you would copywrite the CD under the name of your publishing company, and note the co-write credits for each song. The trick is going to be unloading all those CD's. If you play live, great. If not, who's going to buy them? Unless you get lucky and score some internet buzz, or place a song in a movie or something, or get local airplay, (good luck) no one's going to know who you are. Try to look at it as a group project, because the me vs. them attitude will only lead to a trainwreck. Making your first CD is supposed to be fun. If you can keep it that way, you'll probably be okay.
__________________ "You're either with a native DAW, or you're with the terrorists." G.W. Busch Lite |
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| | #17 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter |
Well I want my company to be successful too... The standard according to many books is that the band gets anywhere from 10-20% of the suggested retail price. There are some deductions of course - 25% is taken off the top for packaging, "freebie factor", reserve, etc... but overall that seems to be the norm. but people here are saying split the profits 50/50 with the band?!?! How do you grow your company by swaying so far from the norm? I was thinking that I could take the norm (10-20%) and jack it up a couple percent because it is my band... but to go all the way to 50/50 seems excessive ... I mean, I want my band AND my label to be successful. And I was also thinking that I take ALL profits and pay off expenses before paying anyone. That garantees that once the label starts making money, the band will at the same time.... but my concern is about on-going expenses.... once the initial expenses are paid-off and everyone starts getting paid, what happens when I drop an additional $2,000 on a second batch of CDs... do I go back to using profits to pay off that expense? could that be on the contract? |
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| | #18 | |
| Lives for gear Joined: Sep 2002 Location: Santa Ynez, Taxafornia
Posts: 840
| Quote:
I know several bands that have gone through a lot of setting up the legal stuff. They have decent followings and tour. They've been together for years and are still struggling to make a profit. All the time they spent in the early days figuring out who gets a percentage of what doesn't mean a thing when they can't sell enough widgets. You've gotta sell the widgets!
__________________ Web Site Mastering Blog MySpace Blatant advertising for one of my latest "one man band" productions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj7BFosfzUg | |
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| | #19 |
| Gear addict Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 357
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let me know if you want to incorporate, I'll give you a slutty deal.
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| | #20 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,726
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[QUOTE=ardy77;957444]Well I want my company to be successful too... The standard according to many books is that the band gets anywhere from 10-20% of the suggested retail price. There are some deductions of course - 25% is taken off the top for packaging, "freebie factor", reserve, etc... but overall that seems to be the norm. but people here are saying split the profits 50/50 with the band?!?! How do you grow your company by swaying so far from the norm? I think you're mixing 'the norm' with reality. The reality, as I see it, is, you are an artist with a band ('my band' were your words). If an artist has a band, the band gets paid, either on a salary, or a per show basis, or some combination of the two. Plus, the band gets paid to do studio work for the artist. But you want your band to rehearse your songs for free, and work in the studio for free. You want the benefits of being part of a 'band', but you want it to be 'your' band, and you want to call the shots and make a profit off of 'your' band. If I was in your band I would have quit long ago. I work with a band locally, and the leader books corporate gigs to make money for the players, and then he records his orginals and makes CD's. When we're doing his material in the studio, we're getting paid to be there. That way there is no misunderstanding. We're his little bitch boys, but we're getting paid for it. You, on the other hand, are getting your little bitch boys for nothing, and now they're starting to rebel. Not to sound too harsh, but you have to look at the situation from both sides. Good luck with your CD. And your bitch boys. |
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| | #21 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter |
"When we're doing his material in the studio, we're getting paid to be there" But do you also get percentage points??? If I give any of those guys a cent before I make anything back, then they automatically become "Hired Help" and no longer get any percentage points... (and their payment becomes part of my expenses) I mean either they take the risk of the record selling just like I do, or I pay them off and they are no longer involved in anything... I really wish I could just pay them off... but most of them wont go for it... they want points... with that in mind, I want my label to be successful too... that is important to me... I didnt spend all this time creating everything and setting up the business side of things... only to turn around and give half of everything to the backline, who's only job was: a) copy these basslines/beats verbatim b) spend 5 hours recording them with me I spent HOURS AND HOURS creating all that music, making the prototype beats, writing/singing lyrics, setting up the label and being the producer... hiring lawyers, accountants, paying for studio time, paying for everything out of pocket! ...etc.. on top of that, I will be the featured musician on the album! ... not trying to toot my own horn here, but where is the fairness in all of that? I guess my new approach will be to ask the band if they would like me to pay them off (and it wont be much since I probably wont make a dime anyway)...have them sign a "Hired Gun" contract, pay them and be done with it! Bottom Line: I want to find a way to cover my butt...BUT I still want to pay the band well... I dont want to hand over their paycheck only to get sued by them for more you know? and its important to me that I dont foot the bill on any expenses... I want to make sure that every expense related to this project is covered before anyone gets any profit ...and in the end, if the label makes profit, so does the band... but if the label spends money on the project , then profits stop until that money is paid off... then we all start making money again, etc... see I'm not out to screw anyone (especially myself!)... but I want to make sure I am reimbursed before we start making cash... and I would consider the label profits/success as the reward for my risky investment and hard work. |
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| | #22 |
| Lives for gear Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,726
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What you're saying is resonable - to a point. It's a matter of scale. 10 or 15 points @ 50,000 units, or 500,000 units it a lot different than 10 or 15 points at 1,000 units. On such a small scale, turning a profit is a joke, unless you're a solo artist recording guitar/vocal. Perhaps you could have a sliding scale with the points you give the band. Like 50 points for the first pressing, 20 for the second, 10 for the third, whatever. And give them co-writing credit where it was earned. You have to show your guys that you respect them, and you have to treat them professionally if you want to take your business to the next level. You can't be a record label on one hand and be nickel and diming your help on the other. The funny thing about the guy I work with - when we're showcasing his material and he says 'here's a song from OUR CD', I have to roll my eyes. It's not 'our' CD, it's his CD. So the whole 'band' thing is a joke in that context. But as long as I'm getting paid, I don't mind. And no, we don't get points on his CD's. Never even considered it. And I'm a co-producer. If the guy catches a break, he'll either cut me in, or he won't. We have a handshake agreement on that, and if he reneges on it, I wouldn't want to work with him anyway. Life is too short to work with people you can't trust. One thing you learn as a songwriter - if I expected to be paid for every demo of my original material I worked on, I would have given up a long time ago. So if you're expecting a return on your investment, music is not the way to go about it. An old joke: How do you turn a millioin dollars into a thousand? Get into the music business. |
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| | #23 | |
| Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2006 Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles de Porciuncula
Posts: 3,622
| Quote:
just look at it if you where the record label and producer , cause thats what you are! you can either pay the musicians as a paid for contract. intermsn that you pay them by the hour when they record in your studio, or record a part etc. could be one payment or hourly wage. or you give each points, should be only like 2%. producer gets like 3-5% which is you. but i understand, they might feel they where in the same boat all along and they want more off the pie. open up your company/label. hire a friend or tell a friend to be the CEO or manager. figure out the paper work and tell your friend to contact the band members and make them sign the deal withouth them knowing you are the label. if course u need distribution so you better hurry. treat both things separtly. by the way, making the beats its not considered making the "music" in a copyrite deal/ publishing. you make the beat/groove and the guitarist comes up the sung hook... thats his song! so u better write down the MUSIC .. and not the beat/groove. | |
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| | #24 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter |
So here is the important question.... Most template contracts state that the label will own all sound recordings done in the recording period... but our band has yet to sign contracts!!! How do I make the contract retro-active such that the label owns sound recordings before the date of the contract?? If not, how does the label obtain ownership of those sound recordings? Thanks. |
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| | #25 | |
| Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2002 Location: Calabasas, California
Posts: 1,142
| Quote:
Usually the people/person that pays for the recording OWNS the master, if nothing else states it or claims it.
__________________ doug | |
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| | #26 |
| Gear interested Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
Thread Starter |
well. the further I dive ... the more confusing it gets... I just want to setup a SIMPLE record label ... but in doing research I am reading about permits, certficates, zoning issues... etc. I am not trying to open a store... I just want to have a ficticious name to run under... to the record labels out there: 1) do you "run" your business out of your home? 2) did you have to get a state seller's permit, a city business license, etc..? I filed a ficticious business name with the city ... is that enough? I just want the ability to sell 500-1000 CDs to a distributer and maybe make a few internet sales... also I want an entity that I can use to write record contracts againist (the MAIN reason)... Spending thousands on a lawyer seems like overkill since this is such a small, simple objective! Thanks... |
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