BEST (rock/pop) GUITAR AMP SIM vs Amp and Mixing thread

[composer]

Just wondering what the census is regarding amp sims from Tech21 SansAmp to Vox, Mesa, Line 6 for Rock/Pop vs say a small Marshall hybrid (tube pre and circuit power section) miked and your opinion on mixing several guitars (using any of these sims) and EQ settings to build a powerful rhythm punchy section while not making it sound muddy.

Of course the old saying goes something like a good mix would mean each instrument would sound terrible when soloed.

Feel free to add comments about both, Amp Sim opinions and mixing techniques (EQ).

Cheers.

CP

[robot gigante]

My thoughts are that it's incredibly difficult to get guitars to sit in the mix right when amp sims are used. I struggle with amp sims all the time since they are used on a lot of what I get to mix.

When the real deal is used, it's a piece of cake.

[Methlab]

yep. I can't get a 3d image with guitar sims. With a real amp its miles better.

[John Suitcase]

It seems to me that most of the amp sims (at least the Line 6 ones) don't have enough gain or something. If you run a drive/distortion pedal before you take the signal into your DAW or POD, it sounds better. I use one of those Tube Drivers by HK Butler, and it works decently.

Of course, getting a good sound with a simulator is mostly a process of messing with it a lot. Mic'ing a real cab is better, unless the real amp is a dog. In which case the POD/Sim sounds better.

At TapeOpCon this year, Sally Browder said she uses Amp Farm exclusively..

[Bump Music]

I agree, amp sims don't "feel" right.

Althought... I find running the guitar into a Chandler Germanium pre first, and then through a Pod makes a huge difference.

[by-tor]

I think amp sims can be used as long as you have some real guitars in teh mix as well. I usually try to get the rythm guitars done on a real amp and then do all the noodle stuff with a pod. I don't play guitar. It is just the work flow I have developed due to budget/time constraints of some of the bands I work with. If I had my druthers though it would be real amps all the time.

[preben]

If you're not using any more than a couple of guitars in a mix I think you can get away with using simulators...

But as soon as you start having a more dense arrangement I would take more or less ANY amp miked with ANY mike over any simulator. And that kinda goes for the analogue as well as the digital ones - but probably even moreso for the digital ones, which to my ears are worse in theat respect. For one guitar it's the other way round for me. YMMV.

The problem I ALWAY have when mixing sim-guitars is that they almost always either too loud or too quiet - and very rarely just sit nicely in the mix.

[Whitecat]

I have IK's amplitube (LE & 1), and I've demoed NI guitar rig, Waves GTR, and possibly some others that I can't think of

I always go back to the SansAmp PSA-1 (RTAS, Pro Tools)... it's older, but it's pretty CPU-friendly and to me it's easier to dial in a sound I like faster than with the others. Amplitube sounds muddy, and I don't use it for distortion at all, only when I want a fake 'clean' sound.

As others have said, it does seem more difficult to get amp sim'd guitars to sit in a mix, but I've found double-tracking, panning and DIFFERENT settings on the L/R channels will often help. I did a track the other day where the L channel had a plate reverb on it, the R channel was dry as a desert and it sounded really cool, and the guitarist loved it.

[doorknocker]

My personal experience is that I'm selling my POD, it's awful and though I got useable sounds out of it by tweaking it/running it thru a TG-2/using stompboxes with it/it's the player/bla,bla,bla it's really so much more rewarding to record a good amp.

I use the hardware PSA-1 once in a while for guitar (and very often for bass) and also the plug-in version.

I tried the Guitar Rig demo and I had the same reaction as with the POD: Quite impressve upon first use but it outstays its welcome pretty fast. Ît might be o.k if you need tons of generic sounds without having all the amps at hand but personally I'd rather use one great amp than have access to 460 mediocre simulations.

[marcan]

I like to mix the DI gtr (with fx like amp sim) and the real amp take. So I can have exactly the sound I'm looking for.
Personnaly (and it seems I'm alone here), I think that amp sim is easier to sit in the mix (the sound is kind of smaller) but lake of "realism", so I add the real amp take.

[RCM - Ronan]

Amp sims screw up mixes. They make everything else in the mix sound worse.

[composer]

Originally Posted by preben

The problem I ALWAY have when mixing sim-guitars is that they almost always either too loud or too quiet - and very rarely just sit nicely in the mix.

Yes, this always seems to be the problem, either too loud or too soft and sometimes does not sit quite right in the mix, I can never get the "mix it like a record" or rather compressed/squashed radio sound. In fact, I had better mixes on my ole Tascam cassette 8 track.

Anyway, I did have a bit of success using Nuendo and Waves Guitar Sim on one track and Guitar Rig on a 2nd track both running the same signal. That was the closest I could get too. The guitar port seems to work well on it's own, but sometimes finding that perfect sound always seems to evade me.

I'm wondering if buying a hybrind (tube pre/solid state power section) low watt marshall or something thereof and just shure 57 it might make a difference.
For that POP/ROCK sound.

Of course, I like the rectifier sound as well and have never ever heard a sim that does that. Not to fond of the bogner sound amps either. Also owned a Groove Tube solo 150 at one time - best sound I ever had when when I was using AMERICAN MADE COKE BOTTLE 6L6's, they would rattle, but these tubes are very very very hard to find...they looked almost like a lightbulb.

Lasty, I stayed away from Marshalls for quite some time ever since I bought a $900 combo (which I brought back) once I realized that the clean channel GAIN all the way up sounded the same as the GAIN channel with the GAIN turned all the way down...it was identical, meaning only one stage. I believe it was either a 800 or 900 series.

Now they have the three gain channels.....haven't heard one of those yet. Wondering how close to the Rectifier it sounds like.

To me the perfect amp would be a Fender Tonemaster, Rectifier, Marshall 900 and 700 all combined. New this guy in Hollywood, right near that Thai rest (that is on Hollywood Blvd open to 4:00...name....hmmmm, can't remember...) anyway, he once built an amp that had both a Marshall and Rectifier switchable amp....but, alas, the clean was knowhere close to having that glass Fender tone.

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by by-tor

I think amp sims can be used as long as you have some real guitars in teh mix as well.

Bang!

I did a record with a guy who was pretty slick at recording heavy guitars.

We had Bogners and Plexis and everything inbetween, but he had us put a few tracks of Amp Farm in and it gave the mix something none of the amps did. But Amp Farm tracks solo'd aren't too much fun.

The one sound I think an amp sim can do OK is that grumbly, dirty but clean Fender-y thing. But not super close, just passable.

[sysexguy]

no more modeling for me...and it's not like I didn't try. I had possibily the first modeling amp up here, actively beta tested another product and repped a third.

As stated above, impossible to mix imho, either too loud or lost.

+ there has never been such a vast choice of fabulous low wattage amps and inexpensive mics available....so why deprive yourself.

now, if I could only apply my new "policy" to keyboards as well (working on it)

That being said, Jeff Beck and Pete Anderson make "guitar" records with amp farm/pods and Satriani uses Roland drums

Andy

[tubedude]

Obviously you guys havent heard the fractal audio hardware box yet. Go listen to the samples. Its the best. Its also the priciest. Go figure.

Peace
Paul

Oh, and those samples... all direct into the recorder. No cabs. You can hear the speaker cabs. Pretty impressive.

[the russian]

I'm not impressed by the fractal audio...

Buy an engl, call it a day.


---------------------------------------------------------

Until those boxes start sounding like the real deal, I'd stick to your O.G. $199 PODs... hahaha, at least the 2112's had their own sound (P.O.S.!)dfegad

[by-tor]

Originally Posted by the russian

Buy an engl, call it a day.

[cody brown]

Originally Posted by Bump Music

I agree, amp sims don't "feel" right.

Althought... I find running the guitar into a Chandler Germanium pre first, and then through a Pod makes a huge difference.

i've heard some tracks ran thru a Pod and then into the DI of the Germanium, and i was pretty surprised.

What I like and don't like about the POD is that it sounds 'faster' than actually micing up a good amp, but certain things i could see wanting that sound.

other than that, i of course like sansamp and or something on the bass, because its the easiest find to help it find its home if its not already there.

2 cents.

[Ziggy!!]

I've had luck running this:




through this running cabinet simulators:

[composer]

Well having had some quality amps at one time and now having POD, Guitar Rig, Waves Guitar (I do get a decent sound using Waves and GR2 combined)....

Does anyone have any suggestions for perhaps a cheap hybrid combo (one 25watt greenback) Marshall amp either all tube, hybrid or all solid state? Has anyone had success with any of these?

Peace!

[rwhitney]

I like Amp farm and the Palmer ADIG-LB cab simulator, but of course they're not as dimensional as mic/speaker/room. I think they sound pretty good in the mix, though. let me find an example.

[rwhitney]

The Electric guitars here are DI into Amp Farm.

[ToneRanger]

Amp sims suck, to me atleast. I have never been able to get a decent, realistic sound from them, but then again, I'm a guitar sound junkie and I'm used to playing and recording with hand wired high end amps.

I don't know. It's just that with those simulations it takes sooooooo loooooooong to get an ok sound and even then you notice after a little while that it's not working. AND IT'S NOT FUN!!! There's not any air moving.. I've never gotten any kicks from playing with guitar sims.. But if you can make it work, more power to you, there aren't any rights or wrongs in this industry. Sometimes a fuzz box plugged directly to the DAW/board might just be the trick, but that's another thing..

For special stuff I've sometimes used amp sims, like with ebows and things. And once we recorded a lead guitar break that we later on felt needed more gain and then an amp sim came in handy, but there was a real guitar sound to build on..

[composer]

Thanks, but as metioned, Does anyone have any suggestions for perhaps a cheap hybrid combo (one 25watt greenback) Marshall amp either all tube, hybrid or all solid state? Has anyone had success with any of these?

Thanks!

[composer]

PS...




It would be very cool if those using either amp or sim....



What type of EQ you use as I know the trick is that when solo'd the channel should sound rather weak vs big and full....


thanks..


Also appreciated good advice on a cheap combo amp for rock/pop situation without blasting 100 watts but get a good BLINK/GREEN DAY sound.

Thanks

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by composer

Thanks, but as metioned, Does anyone have any suggestions for perhaps a cheap hybrid combo (one 25watt greenback) Marshall amp either all tube, hybrid or all solid state? Has anyone had success with any of these?

Thanks!

I owned a Marshall AVT50 for about a year and it was always a pain to get the guitars to sound right, could never get them to sit in a mix right. I bought a Mesa DC3 and my problems were solved, it was one of those "holy sh*t" moments. My guitars went from tons of eqing to nearly none at all. If the problem is cash then just save, I used to hate it when people said to do that but it honest to god makes mixing sooo much easier. BTW I've also use more than my fair share of PODs and the like and had the exact same problem with those as with the AVT, never felt or sounded right. God bless tubes.

If you want a good cheap amp to practice with then check out the Epiphone Valve Jr. combos. I own the head version and man it's really amazing for what it is, gets a real nice dirty and equally nice clean tone.

[rwhitney]

Originally Posted by composer

PS...

What type of EQ you use as I know the trick is that when solo'd the channel should sound rather weak vs big and full....

I'm not a commercial music engineer, but I think the URS A Series plug-ins sound good on electric guitar, as far as software goes, at least.

[rwhitney]

Or, for transparency, the Sony Oxford EQ.

[GregP]

Originally Posted by ToneRanger

AND IT'S NOT FUN!!! There's not any air moving.. I've never gotten any kicks from playing with guitar sims.. But if you can make it work, more power to you, there aren't any rights or wrongs in this industry. Sometimes a fuzz box plugged directly to the DAW/board might just be the trick, but that's another thing..

To me, this statement is a breath of fresh air. I'm actually a home hobbyist-type-guy, so I have NOT used dozens and dozens of amps, and I DO rely primarily on amp sims. But when I see too many arguments about the recording of 'moving air,' people always fail to highlight what they're really experiencing. They try to be scientific about it, when the simple fact is quoted above-- it's just a lot more FUN and a lot more "energizing" to record with a real amp. Debates about the actual tone (especially once mixed into a dense mix) will go back and forth for ages, especially as sim technology improves. But one thing that never changes is the actual ENJOYMENT of playing through a genuine, cranked amp.

And that translates into better performance, even if the purely scientifically quantifiable waveforms continue to have blurry lines of difference.

--

One thing I'm still not buying in this thread is the "too loud, too quiet" thing. I don't get it. You have control over the levels in microdecibels... how can it always be either too quiet or too loud? Perhaps it's just that at the RIGHT level, it doesn't have enough presence or its own space in the soundstage. But I don't think it's a matter of pure levels. Having it set at the right level and still having it not sound right in the mix is a different story.

Greg

[robot gigante]

Originally Posted by GregP

One thing I'm still not buying in this thread is the "too loud, too quiet" thing. I don't get it. You have control over the levels in microdecibels... how can it always be either too quiet or too loud? Perhaps it's just that at the RIGHT level, it doesn't have enough presence or its own space in the soundstage. But I don't think it's a matter of pure levels. Having it set at the right level and still having it not sound right in the mix is a different story.

Greg

I think what the poster was trying to say is that guitar tracks done with amp sims don't blend well with the rest of the mix. Either they obscure everything (too loud) or they don't cut through enough and get lost (too quiet). No middle ground. You get caught in a cycle of bumping the fader up and then down, EQing shit out, putting what you EQ'ed back in because it still doesn't work and trying to EQ something else out and so on and so on.

The way that I put it is that they don't sit right in the mix. Same thing, different semantics.

I find the same problems happening with bad reverbs- you can tweak parameters to your heart's content but they still either obscure too much or get lost in the mix.