Snare hits on Paul Simon's "The Boxer"

[Jackie Treehorn]

OK, I'm halfway through tracking my first album (hopefully). I definitely consider myself more of a singer/songwriter. . . not a pro engineer. . . just getting that straight right up front.

I have a song with a dramatic outtro and a chord progression that builds as it repeats back onto itself, a la "Hey Jude," or "The Boxer." I want to add huge, heavily reverbed and distant snare hits, similar to those at the end of "The Boxer." Actually, I don't have a copy of "Boxer" in front of me, but I think there may be more than one drum. . . maybe a snare and tympani together(?).

Any suggestions for a jumping-off point? Would you recommend starting with one of the drummer's snare hits from somewhere else in the song, or use something sampled (I have tons of drum files for Sony Acid, which I used in my demos for these songs). Start with a crisp smack, or a tom-ish thwack? Which reverb to start with?

Before you lunge for you keyboards to type "use your ears," let me assure you that I will do just that! Just want to know what the pros would start with in this situation. My goal here is to get as close as possible to what I want before handing off the files so the mixing engineer doesn't have to guess.

Here's an mp3 from my home demos so you can hear the song. . . . remember that you're listening to the demo. . . not the tracks done in the studio.

On the real thing, I want to back off a bit on the "hey yeahs" and make these snare hits louder. And-- trust me-- the whole song is MUCH better on the real deal. The drummer just kills on it, the chiming electric guitars are better, there is a screaming guitar solo, the organ is better, etc.

Sincere thanks to all in advance.

[max cooper]

I was just listening to the track, and I'm putting up that snare sound for reference.

Know what I'd do? I know it sounds a bit crazy, but I'd go out and record the sound of a dumpster lid slamming, then I'd distort it and put a couple of reverbs with some predelay on it.

I'd also take a baseball bat and try hitting the dumpster in various places.

Trust me. It'll be cool.

[thenoodle]

........"Hal Blaine created the huge drum sound during the chorus by banging a heavy chain against the concrete floor of an empty storage closet......"

There was also an R-E-P article back in the 70's about the making of the record. I haven't read it for a long time but I remember there was a pretty extensive reverb setup they came up with for that end section.

I'd use a snare coupled up with a few extra bizarre things like from 8bit kit if you have it. I'd even try some one-off footstomps-on-plywood etc to mix in. Then I'd run a couple of simultaneous reverb treatments...one with a huge amount of delay followed by a gated tail that ends before the "other" reverb.

[wwittman]

wasn't that the track where Roy Halee mic'ed the open door to the elevator shaft to get that reverb?

[MJGreene Audio]

Originally Posted by wwittman

wasn't that the track where Roy Halee mic'ed the open door to the elevator shaft to get that reverb?

That is how I heard it from Don Hahn. Something like 5 floors up!!!

[James Guitar]

Originally Posted by wwittman

wasn't that the track where Roy Halee mic'ed the open door to the elevator shaft to get that reverb?

if i'm not mistaken, and i could very well be mistaken, they talk about doing just that in one of the chapters in "Behind The Glass". i'll have to go look it up...
-J

[Bo Jorgen]

Nice groove and arrangement on that song. Good luck with the album!

[not_so_new]

Not that it is a big deal or anything but it's really "Simon & Garfunkel's" song written by Paul Simon right?



What a great song... actually what a great album!

[chandlersonic]

LaïlaLaï prrchhhhhhhhhhh. always puts a smile on my face

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Not that it is a big deal or anything but it's really "Simon & Garfunkel's" song written by Paul Simon right?

Ah, but Art Garfunkel; voice like an angel.

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by max cooper

Ah, but Art Garfunkel; voice like an angel.

I know... Just amazing. That was why I wanted to point him out, he was a real part of the vibe. Paul's voice is a little more "raw" and Art's voice was much more refined, together they were a great one - two change up and when they harmonized... WOW is about all I can say.

[RKrizman]

For some reason I'm under the impression that the snare sound from the Boxer was actual a gun fired in a stairwell. What an unusual arrangement, when you consider the baritone harmonica, and the Olympic theme excerpt during the instrumental break--pedal steel?

-R

[thenoodle]

Oh yeah, The Boxer lead break-

Not a pedal steel (which I do play)....

Electric guitar into volume pedal. Three tracks on recorder. Put 1st track into record and record the first guitar note, fading it in on the volume pedal. Then stop. Rewind tape...put track two into record, record the second note, slightly overlapping the first. Rewind tape, activate third track, record third note.

Keep repeating till break is built. You could use just two tracks but punching in would be tight. You could use a zillion tracks and then submix, but hey, not an option in 1970.

Try it...it's a cool way to build a guitar break where the notes slightly overlap in a way you could never do in real-time. Plus...it almost doesn't even sound like a guitar.

[dcisive]

I've been an acoustic guitarist now for over 40 years, and I must say of ALL the albums that come to mind in my lifetime, THAT album will always remain as a "benchmark" of not only singer/songwriting, but engineering as well. For me it just ALL comes together on that album. The insight of the content of the songwriting, as well as the immaculate mix job. There really isn't much to criticise on that album IMHO. That was back before Paul got the ego level he currently is at. He let his fingers do the talking back then. I'm a sucker for a well recorded acoustic guitar (particularly if it's a Martin or Taylor). I suppose as an old fart it just brings back some great memories as well. Punky's Dilemma and Old Friends sure do it for me as well.Still it must remain as a high water mark in the engineering department.

[James Guitar]

Originally Posted by dcisive

Still it must remain as a high water mark in the engineering department.

roy halee is the man...
columbia studios NYC is the place...
what a sound in that room!
-J

[Jackie Treehorn]

Thanks for the replies. Very informative!

max, thanks for posting the referenced clip!

I was wondering how to choose the right snare, but now I'm kind of fired up to try baseball bats on dumpsters, chains against floors, gunshots, etc.

Count me as another who is in awe of albums like "Bridge..." and "Bookends." Amazing writing, performances, and engineering. One of my very first casettes (about age 11) was S&G's "Greatest Hits" and I literally wore that tape out in my first-generation Sony Walkman. I had to fight to keep it, too, after my mom heard an anti-rock-and-roll evangelist explain that "Bridge" was a song about drugs.

[Phil Cibley]

Originally Posted by James Guitar

columbia studios NYC is the place...

Unfortunately was.

[James Guitar]

Originally Posted by Phil Cibley

Unfortunately was.

yeh, that sucks. what is it now, condos? with a duane reade on the bottom?
-J

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn

I had to fight to keep it, too, after my mom heard an anti-rock-and-roll evangelist explain that "Bridge" was a song about drugs.

I remember that.

[duckyboard]

i heard the snare hits were achieved by placing a speaker at the bottom of this stairwell at capital studios and pointing a mic down at the speaker.

?

[DeBasement]

I seem to recall reading that the 'elevator shaft' sound was actually the big bang at the beginning of the Loving Spoonful's 'summer in the City'... have to look it up.

And I also recall reading that this particular Simon & Garfunkel album had initially been recorded as a simple, all acoustic folky affair but then times changed that summer (the summer of love or thereabouts?) and the record company decided to go back and 'beef up' the tunes with extra accompaniment. Maybe that accounts for some of the strange and interesting arrangements, as the studio players were trying to add drama to what were essentially small and intimate performances.

I wonder if that huge blast is stereo or mono? I'm gonna guess mono... Augmented by an EMI140 plate as it seems absolutely everything was 'back in the day'....

Just my one and a half (Canadian) cents.




++ Bulletin ** Shoulda' checked Mixonline.com first... Here's an excerpt from an interview with Roy Halee, talking about both the Loving Spoonful and S & G's "The Boxer", but sadly not the snare hit...

I imagine that in the pre-Revolver days, bands pretty much let the engineers and producers call the shots in terms of how the records should sound…

That's right. We were mostly doing live tracks, maybe overdub a few things, and then put vocals on. But we'd experiment, too. Like on “Summer in the City” that explosion is from putting a mic in a garbage can that we had in the studio and banging it.

Did the highly experimental approach of George Martin affect you the way it did so many engineers and producers?

No, not really. Like I said, I had my own thing going.

But it certainly affected musicians and producers in terms of making them aware of the potential of the recording studio.

That's true. As you said, I think it affected some producers quite a bit. I worked with a guy out in L.A. who loved to imitate everything The Beatles were doing — Gary Usher. He loved to copy them. “Here, listen to this record, Roy,” and it would be some phasing thing; no big deal. Actually, I used a lot of that on Simon & Garfunkel.

At what point did you hook up with them originally?

Well, I was there for the audition. Then Columbia signed them, and Artie said, “Can't we have the engineer we had on the audition? We really like him.” And I ended up doing all their sessions; every one.

Can you talk a little about their evolution in the studio? A record like “The Sounds of Silence” had a pretty distinct sound, but that's very different, obviously, than what we later hear on Bookends or Bridge Over Troubled Water.

Well, “Sounds of Silence” was originally the audition, and then [producer] Tom Wilson and I went in the studio and overdubbed the studio musicians, and it came out as a single and it was a big hit. After that, we brought the same musicians in the studio and went on from there on the album.

How much control did Paul Simon have at that point over the music and arrangements and all?

Total. Or just about total. Artie was more into the vocal backgrounds, the pretty harmonies, etc. But Paul was the writer, and he really had a vision for what he thought we should do. Still, he would bounce ideas off of us; he'd come into the studio and say, “What do you think of this?” and he'd play something, and Artie would say what he thought, and I'd say what I thought, and we'd go from there.

Was theirs the typical story of each record taking longer than the previous one? An album like Bridge Over Troubled Water has so many styles on it; it must've been harder to pull off in the studio.

Well, it also didn't help that Artie went off and did a movie [Carnal Knowledge], so that sidetracked us a bit. Also, Paul is not the fastest writer in the world. He wasn't one of those guys who could just grind it out — boom, boom, boom — like he did more in later years. But, yes, that record did take a long time. Isn't it that way with all successful groups? I think that's normal.

What was the separation between producer and engineer in those days.

Total. Although it wasn't with me; not at all. The engineer was the engineer; the producer was the producer. The producer called the shots in the studio. He was running the session, and the engineer followed along. He was considered a good engineer if he didn't get in the way. I was fortunate in that they drew me in more musically; they picked my brain more — “What do you think?” “What kind of sound would go well with that? What texture might go well with that?” “Well, how about a piccolo trumpet and a tuba in a church on that?” So we'd go and do that, like we did on “The Boxer.” We went into the chapel at Columbia University to overdub a piccolo trumpet and a tuba.

So that's not something that was planned way in advance.

No, we were always experimenting with different combinations, different sounds. And you know, all the Paul Simon sessions were “head dates”; none of them were arranged. You go in and pick the brains of the best musicians in the world. You don't put a chart in front of a Hal Blaine or a Larry Knechtel. You let them do what they do — draw on that.

-------

So there.


"I could be wrong. It's happened once before, when I thought I was wrong about something... turned out I wasn't." My dad

[bluesman714]

The "B" side of the Boxer 45 was a GREAT song called "Baby Driver". It was a really rockin tune for Simon & Garfunkle, just an absolutely great chorus. Does anyone know where if it is available or was it just a throwaway b side?

[paul mckenna]

Its on itunes

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...43441&i=764215

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by bluesman714

The "B" side of the Boxer 45 was a GREAT song called "Baby Driver". It was a really rockin tune for Simon & Garfunkle, just an absolutely great chorus. Does anyone know where if it is available or was it just a throwaway b side?

It's also on Bridge Over Troubled Water.

[Brian Middleton]

One of the funniest things I've ever seen was a guy doing "The Boxer" live....he had a little Fender amp alongside him, and when he got to the snare hits he would give the amp a hard kick and trigger one of those reverb explosions. Worked pretty well, actually....and it was funny as hell to watch. "Lie-la-lie....KICK!..."

[vernier]

i heard the snare hits were achieved by placing a speaker at the bottom of this stairwell at capital studios and pointing a mic down at the speaker.

Columbia, not Capitol. Columbia 30th Street Studios in New York was a large church. That, along with being all-tube, i.e. -mixing console, limiters, and eq's, made for the superior sound. And superior it is.

[max cooper]

The horns on "Tryin' to Keep the Customer..." are killer.

Hal Blaine rules as usual.

[Calfee Jones]

Originally Posted by Brian Middleton

One of the funniest things I've ever seen was a guy doing "The Boxer" live....he had a little Fender amp alongside him, and when he got to the snare hits he would give the amp a hard kick and trigger one of those reverb explosions. Worked pretty well, actually....and it was funny as hell to watch. "Lie-la-lie....KICK!..."

Now this story made me laugh out loud

[Gilliland]

Originally Posted by DeBasement

And I also recall reading that this particular Simon & Garfunkel album had initially been recorded as a simple, all acoustic folky affair but then times changed that summer (the summer of love or thereabouts?) and the record company decided to go back and 'beef up' the tunes with extra accompaniment.

You're thinking of their first hit single, The Sounds of Silence. It was recorded in an all acoustic version for their first album, Wednesday Morning, 3AM. (The entire album was all acoustic.) When Columbia struck gold with the Byrd's Mr. Tambourine Man, they thought that they might be able to do something similar with Simon and Garfunkel. So they brought a bunch of session guys into the studio to overdub a folkrock treatment over the original acoustic track. Paul Simon was in London at the time, and didn't even learn of this until he heard it on the radio. Needless to say, their careers took off at that point. They quickly went back into the studio with that same bunch of session musicians to record their second album, The Sounds Of Silence.

But by the time they were doing songs like The Boxer, they were way past their acoustic days - in the studio at least. On tour, though, they still performed with nothing but two voices and Paul's guitar for several years. It was lovely to see (I saw them three times in that format back in the mid-60s).