Which Ribbon for Electric Gtr...Royer 121, AEA R84, Something Else???

[Rockin Daddy]

I'm getting ready to take the plunge and explore the world of ribbon mics...my main application would be electric guitar amps. (Classic rock & Powerpop Stuff) I know there are alot of choices out there but I'm considering the Royer 121 and AEA R84. Any thoughts/experience comparing these mics??? Obviously if there are any other contenders I'm open to all suggestions.

[I Lurk]

Originally Posted by Rockin Daddy

I'm getting ready to take the plunge and explore the world of ribbon mics...my main application would be electric guitar amps. (Classic rock & Powerpop Stuff) I know there are alot of choices out there but I'm considering the Royer 121 and AEA R84. Any thoughts/experience comparing these mics??? Obviously if there are any other contenders I'm open to all suggestions.

Royer is a classic, but lately, I somehow prefered the inexpensive R92 in that app.


regards

[Flymax]

Just did a sess w/ Royer thru API->C2 out of an old Marshall..really was magic..

[Meriphew]

A 121 through an API is indeed a thing of beauty.

[delcosmos]

For clean- crunchy guitars: (AC30, Badcat, Twin Reverb, Deluxe or Vibroverb) -> ROYER 121--> 1073--> a bit of 1176 -> HEDD 192.

For heavy dist guitars: (Orange Rockverb, Plexi, Soldano, Jcm800, or Triple rectifier) -> "ROYER 121-Gefell UMT70 combo"-> 1073-> HEDD 192.

Best regards.

Armando Avila.

[jazzgitter]

Just finsished tracking electric guitars with AE84/Phoenix DRS-2/ Pro Junior amp with Weber Alnico speaker. OMG do wanna' talk about pure butta?! If you want smooth electric guitars it doesn't get any better IMHO.

[newnes]

The front side of an AEA R92. I usually have it about 4-6 inches off. To me it just sounds like what the amp sounds like in the room. I find the back side usually sounds a bit dark/bassy on guitar amps for my taste and I have to back it off the amp a ways and use a high shelf to get the sound right.

Armando - where are you placing the Gefell in relation to the Royer? What is it adding to the sound that you like? I've got a UMT70 on the way so I'm curious to try this out. Thanks,

Craig.

[Tim Abraham]

To be honest, it's rare that I like the sound of a ribbon alone on a cab. Recently I've been using a bright mic (Audix i5, SM57, a SDC, or a LDC) along with a ribbon.

I prefer the 121 simply because of it's small size. I like to put the 2 mics right beside each other, and with the 121, I can get the bright mic's capsule closer to the actual ribbon than I could with, say, a big 'ol AEA.

I have almost no phase issues with this approach, and I find that I can dial in body and ambience just by pushing up the 121's fader. No EQ needed other than a hpf.

Something happens by adding the second mic that's different than just pushing up the fader, or eq'ing, a single mic--more 3D to my ears. Probably due to different transient responses, proximity effects, and slight phase differences.

[delcosmos]

Originally Posted by newnes

The front side of an AEA R92. I usually have it about 4-6 inches off. To me it just sounds like what the amp sounds like in the room. I find the back side usually sounds a bit dark/bassy on guitar amps for my taste and I have to back it off the amp a ways and use a high shelf to get the sound right.

Armando - where are you placing the Gefell in relation to the Royer? What is it adding to the sound that you like? I've got a UMT70 on the way so I'm curious to try this out. Thanks,

Craig.

Hi, I learned this technique on Royer's web site and then I discovered here in GS that Mr. Ryan Hewitt teach this technique to everyone!!
Here you can find more info about this:
ROYER-GEFFELL combo on Dist. guitars WOW!!!!
Best regards.
Armando Avila

[ToneRanger]

What about the Beyer M160 against these more modern ribbons? Seemed to work for Hendrix, Who, etc.. And it's way cheaper than the others. It's also cardiod so a bad room (I have to deal with a bad room...) doesn't affect the sound that much than with figure of eight mics.

What do you think? M160 vs. modern ribbons? Performance, price, functionality, etc...Shoot!

[Rockin Daddy]

How does the Crowley & Tripp line (especially the Naked Eye) handle electric guitars and how do they compare with Royer & AEA...anyone???

[newnes]

Originally Posted by delcosmos

Hi, I learned this technique on Royer's web site and then I discovered here in GS that Mr. Ryan Hewitt teach this technique to everyone!!
Here you can find more info about this:
ROYER-GEFFELL combo on Dist. guitars WOW!!!!
Best regards.
Armando Avila

Thanks for the link Armando!!

Craig.

[ToneRanger]

Bump! Surely someone has to have experience with the Beyer M160 and the modern favourite R121... care to compare?

[warhead]

The ONLY place I would never highly recommend a Beyer M160 is on loud guitar cabs. It can't handle the SPL as well as the modern large ribbons like AEA, C&T etc. I've tried a couple of M160 on loud amps and it's just not quite up to the task in my opinion.

The sE Electronics R1 is my go to guitar cab ribbon, I own one of those and the R84 and the R1 has more of the bite I need and less of the proximity effect. Really well suited to cab work.

In the AEA line I would grab the R92.

War

[Yuri Kogan]

We have AEA R92, Coles 4038 & 4040, Royer 121, C&T Vocalist/Precenium/Naked eye, Sontronics, Beyer 160s and some old oddities. By far the most popular with clients is the C&T Naked Eye. And the most versatile. Not too expensive either

Yuri

[rabryars]

Hi All,

http://www.sontronics.com/

Just got a couple of Sigmas in and think they are great. A/B'd em against Royer and thought they were just as good. Sound was warm and well rounded.

my 2c's worth.

Bob

[tubedude]

Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan

We have AEA R92, Coles 4038 & 4040, Royer 121, C&T Vocalist/Precenium/Naked eye, Sontronics, Beyer 160s and some old oddities. By far the most popular with clients is the C&T Naked Eye. And the most versatile. Not too expensive either

Yuri

So you are digging the Naked Eye? Pretty good deal? I should have one within the next 2 weeks, still looking for people to make me feel better about it

[brethes]

Originally Posted by Rockin Daddy

I'm getting ready to take the plunge and explore the world of ribbon mics...my main application would be electric guitar amps. (Classic rock & Powerpop Stuff) I know there are alot of choices out there but I'm considering the Royer 121 and AEA R84. Any thoughts/experience comparing these mics??? Obviously if there are any other contenders I'm open to all suggestions.

Coles 4038!

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by warhead

The ONLY place I would never highly recommend a Beyer M160 is on loud guitar cabs. It can't handle the SPL as well as the modern large ribbons like AEA, C&T etc. I've tried a couple of M160 on loud amps and it's just not quite up to the task in my opinion.

The sE Electronics R1 is my go to guitar cab ribbon, I own one of those and the R84 and the R1 has more of the bite I need and less of the proximity effect. Really well suited to cab work.

With all due respect, I have NEVER hear a Chinese condenser mic give an M-160 even a short run for the money.

FWIW I cut loud guitars all the time and have NEVER found anything close to a problem with M-160's and loud guitars. In my fairly experienced opinion, it can handle level with the best of them.

Now, on a sonic plane... you're going to end up with damn near all of them over the next several years so just pick one and be done with it... next time you purchase a ribbon mic pick a different one and be done with it.

There is no "perfect" guitar ribbon mic... there is no "perfect" anything except for the possibility of shit like Chinese condenser mics for the most part being a perfect waste of time... I do love my Groove Tubes 44's, but nothing else I've heard from China was even remotely impressive.

As always, YMMV.

[tubedude]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

With all due respect, I have NEVER hear a Chinese condenser mic give an M-160 even a short run for the money.

FWIW I cut loud guitars all the time and have NEVER found anything close to a problem with M-160's and loud guitars. In my fairly experienced opinion, it can handle level with the best of them.

Now, on a sonic plane... you're going to end up with damn near all of them over the next several years so just pick one and be done with it... next time you purchase a ribbon mic pick a different one and be done with it.

There is no "perfect" guitar ribbon mic... there is no "perfect" anything except for the possibility of shit like Chinese condenser mics for the most part being a perfect waste of time... I do love my Groove Tubes 44's, but nothing else I've heard from China was even remotely impressive.

As always, YMMV.

The R1 is a ribbon, bro, not a Chinese condenser. Just clarifying

[Krubbadoo]

Beyer M160 sounds amazing on guitar cabs. Just be a little careful on proximity...
I also find hard to beat on shakers, tambourines etc...

[C/G]

For new current ones: Beyer M160 is nice and pretty versatile. I had an AEA R84 for a while and it was cool and had a nice smooth sound, less bitey than the 160.

Old weird ones: I have some Fostex M88 RP ribbons that I think are the mutts nutts. A little on the dark side but still very nice and also great when paired with a condenser like a UM70.

Ones I want to try: I want to check out the Crowley and Tripp naked Eye, simply for the price it looks hard to beat. Of course I have never tried an R121 either.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

With all due respect, I have NEVER hear a Chinese condenser mic give an M-160 even a short run for the money.

FWIW I cut loud guitars all the time and have NEVER found anything close to a problem with M-160's and loud guitars. In my fairly experienced opinion, it can handle level with the best of them.

Now, on a sonic plane... you're going to end up with damn near all of them over the next several years so just pick one and be done with it... next time you purchase a ribbon mic pick a different one and be done with it.

There is no "perfect" guitar ribbon mic... there is no "perfect" anything except for the possibility of shit like Chinese condenser mics for the most part being a perfect waste of time... I do love my Groove Tubes 44's, but nothing else I've heard from China was even remotely impressive.

As always, YMMV.

As mentioned above the R1 is a ribbon mic. I've used almost every ribbon mic out there and the M160's I've tried (more than one) exhibit a scratchiness to the sound that I don't hear on other ribbons. It's actually quite subtle, but it's there. I'm not the only one who hears it, as I've had this conversation with other M160 users. In my opinion it is the last ribbon I'd recommend for loud amp use, the other last ribbon for loud amp use would be the Coles 4038 which doesn't seem to handle it well either. I am talking about loud cabs also, not all cab work.

I'd love to sell everybody every single kind of ribbon at some point as well, but I'm here to tell you between the R84 and the sE R1 I can cover acoustic sources and electric guitar sources considering the 4 completely different sounds I can get off both sides of these mics.

Obviously our mileage as you like to put it, has varied. You might want to check and see what we're talking about before posting a response though! I think we started out with a busted odometer this time...

War

[ToneRanger]

Originally Posted by warhead

As mentioned above the R1 is a ribbon mic. I've used almost every ribbon mic out there and the M160's I've tried (more than one) exhibit a scratchiness to the sound that I don't hear on other condensors. It's actually quite subtle, but it's there. I'm not the only one who hears it, as I've had this conversation with other M160 users. In my opinion it is the last ribbon I'd recommend for loud amp use, the other last ribbon for loud amp use would be the Coles 4038 which doesn't seem to handle it well either. I am talking about loud cabs also, not all cab work.

Thanks for the detailed info, much appreciated!

How loud you mean? It just amazes me that M160 were used on Jimi's cab, and he was quite loud, or so I've heard

So is it just the scratchines that bothers you or can't it just handle the volume?

I'm considering a ribbon mic to use with 1x12 15 watt class A combos (Bad Cat etc.).. Those can get pretty loud even though the low wattage. You think the Beyer could handle it?

What you think about the R92 with guitars, compared to R84?

[warhead]

Maybe the mics are being made slightly differently compared to those in the 60's, but there is this little scrapy / scratchy sound I hear on cranked amps. I was trying to state that I personally would recommend them highly on anything BUT amps for this reason. I feel like with all the ribbon offerings out there the M160 isn't anywhere near the perfect amp mic for this reason based on my experiences.

I even sent one mic back to Beyer for service thinking it must have had an issue. The mic that came back, and the next one we received for stock both exhibited the same issue (only on guitar cabs).

As far as it handling the volume, I hear the scratchy sound when the amp is cranked so I'd categorize that as not being able to handle it...!

I'm glad others have enjoyed it on loud amps and don't hear it themselves if that's the case, but I just never recommend it specifically in these cases (which is the original poster's case).

The R92 is far better suited for close speaker mic'ing vs. the R84 in the AEA line. It is tuned higher and picks up just enough bite to suit most tracks with less EQ required, and the proximity effect is far less so it won't flub out on the bottom as bad as many ribbons.

I compared the two and made clips when the R92 first came out:

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/...2079&alid=1286

There are clips using the front (+) and rear (-) of the mics in there. You can very easily learn the differences between the two mics by downloading and listening as their positioning was exactly the same in each instance and I used a re-amped track so performances are identical on amp use at least...the vocal, ac guitar and drum clips are of course different takes!

Sorry for the terrible vocal in advance...it's me and I'm not a singer.

War

[ToneRanger]

Thanks, Warhead, I'll check out the clips!

[warhead]

Keep in mind they are stereo clips that you must pan to hear each mic (there are instructions for each clip).

I suggest downloading them, and splitting them into two mono files in your DAW and playing back that way for easy A/B.

War

[eligit]

i found that if you are willing to pull the mic a bit off the speaker cloth the r-84 sound "richer" than the 92. not just more low end...just a nicer tone to my ear.

if you must have it right up on the cloth tho...the r-84 has too much proximity effect. i pull it off the speaker about 12" and it sounds really nice.

[Meriphew]

Originally Posted by ToneRanger

I'm considering a ribbon mic to use with 1x12 15 watt class A combos (Bad Cat etc.)..

I've been using my Royer R-121 on my AC30 and on my Bad Cat. Stellar sound!

[fonman]

I just bought a Shure 330 and a Shure 300 of Ebay. If functioning properly, how well should they fare against loud guitar amps.
Thanks.