Recording Bass Amp v. Sansamp

[barthowk]

I’ve always just used a Sansamp to record bass based on the recommendations I’ve read on how it good it sounds. Now that I’ve been doing this for a few years, I’m curious about the possible improvement in bass tone I could get by using an actual bass amp. I’m not really unhappy with my bass tone, just curious if I could improve it. Have you found that miking and/or direct recording a good bass amp produces substantially better results than just recording direct through a Sansamp?

If yes, then I have 3 questions:
1) Are tube bass amps basically always better than solid-state (like with guitar amps)?
2) What are some good bass amps I should look at ($1,000 range)?
3) What are some good bass amp mics I should loot at?

BTW, I’m using an American Fender Precision bass.

Thanks!

[Dr.Wu]

I like to combine my sansamp with a convolutionbased speakersimulation plugin like guitarrig2 for some cool bass sounds.

[vernier]

You could blend in almost any amp with your Sansamp ...small guitar amp even. Or maybe get an Ampeg B50R or B100R.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by vernier

You could blend in almost any amp with your Sansamp ...small guitar amp even. Or maybe get an Ampeg B50R or B100R.

I've tried everything including a Bass Pod, and won't plug my P-Bass into anything but my B100R. It is solid state but does have the Ampeg mojo.

Never had a flip-top, though. I would look at that if you really must spend a grand (or more).

[Sounds Great]

What mic's do you have in your collection now?

[barthowk]

My mics include:

Stereo Pair AKG C 414 B-XLS
Neumann U87 (vintage) (in the mail)
Shure SM57
Shure SM58 (in the mail)
Shure SM7 (will purchase this week or next)
And the grand finale: a STUDIO PROJECTS C1 (wild applause)

I’ll be adding a nice tube mic for vocals soon (maybe a Peluso, Pearlman, or Soundelux U95). I’m also considering getting a ribbon…

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by barthowk

I’ve always just used a Sansamp to record bass based on the recommendations I’ve read on how it good it sounds.

Which Sansamp do you have?

Originally Posted by barthowk

1) Are tube bass amps basically always better than solid-state (like with guitar amps)?

Yes. IME, solid-state bass amps have a tendency to get an ugly sounding top and upper mid range when the bassist is really digging in. There's a coupla exceptions that come to mind, however. One is the Ampeg B-2RE (I <i>think</i>...or else it's one that looks just like it).

Originally Posted by barthowk

2) What are some good bass amps I should look at ($1,000 range)?

Ampeg B-2RE (man I hope I'm telling you the right model number...)

Originally Posted by barthowk

3) What are some good bass amp mics I should loot at?

RE20s, 421s, SM57s, SM7s, U47fet, 4047, ATM25 (shh...that one's a secret weapon of sorts).

By the way, I'm not a bassist...I'm merely a humble AE. So I'm definitely speaking from an "in-the-studio" perspective. OK.

[barthowk]

Oh sorry, I also have the Audix DP5-a drum mic set which includes: D-6, D-4, D-2, i5.

[barthowk]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Which Sansamp do you have?

I have the SansAmp Bass Driver.

(this one: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BassDriver/)

[stuntbutt]

1) Are tube bass amps basically always better than solid-state (like with guitar amps)?

Yes


2) What are some good bass amps I should look at ($1,000 range)?

I have a 70s SVT. A Head and cab go for more than $1000 but it doesn't get any sweeter. If the amp is just for recording, I have a 70s Fender Musicmaster bass amp. 15 watts with a single 10" open back.


3) What are some good bass amp mics I should loot at?

I did a bass amp mic test for myself. I recorded a phrase with a DI so that I could reamp and record the sakme phrase with different mics. My conclusion was that it doesn't matter. All the mics sounded a little different but every single one was perfectly usable. If I had to pick a favorite and bleed wasn't a problem it would be the Beyer M380.

Shure SM57
Shure SM7
Shure Beta52
Beyer M88
Beyer M380
Senn. MD421
Senn. MD504
AKG D12
AKG D112
AkG C414
Nuem. TLM103
Nuem. U87
EV RE20

[bgrotto]

So I just learned that the solid-state head I like is not the B-2RE, but the B-2R. The "E" version has different circuitry.

...hey, I was close...

Anyway, if you can swing it, definitely pick up a 70s SVT head and an 8x10 cab. That's an impossible combo to beat. I really dig Ampeg B-15s as well.

Last, I thought of another mic option: build a mic out of an old speaker's woofer. Make sure you wire it in reverse.

[Jay Kahrs]

1. Not always.

2. $1000 or so can get 'ya a lot of bass amp. Maybe a '70s SVT if you look hard enough...of course you'll need a cab to go with it...and the facility's & ability to open up a 300 watt tube bass head...

On the flip side, SWR & Eden make REALLY great solid-state amps. Ashdown too...I used to have a 100 watt 1x10" SWR combo for the studio and that was all anyone really needed unless they were tracking without cans & had to have to the amp killin' in the room.

3. I dunno...U87, RE-20, 421, small diaphragm condensors can work...I used an AT4031 on this last set of dates...

But really, I've found recording the amp vs. Sansamp to be different. Not better. Not equal. Only different. I always take a clean DI, but either the amp or Sansamp is my "amp" tone.

[kats]

Yeah man., it all really depends. Sometimes the bass rigs these guys come in here with are so sterile that it sounds like a bad synth.

Just the other day I happened to be experimenting because I know one of the "culprits" is coming in on a session next week. My fav was a jazz bass ('cause it's the only bass in the studio - nice pre CBS model though) ---->sans amp DI----->Helios (mic in, not line in)----> Drawmer 1968(not to much comp, but hitting the output pretty hard.)

I was very surprised at the GREAT bass tones I was able to dial in. It was kinda funny 'cause I had that Sans Amp thing in a unopened box for almost a year, picked it up on sale, thought it might come in handy )

Anyhow, for me, it sounded more "au natural" than most bass amps that come in here ehe

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by barthowk

My mics include:

Stereo Pair AKG C 414 B-XLS
Neumann U87 (vintage) (in the mail)
Shure SM57
Shure SM58 (in the mail)
Shure SM7 (will purchase this week or next)
And the grand finale: a STUDIO PROJECTS C1 (wild applause)

I’ll be adding a nice tube mic for vocals soon (maybe a Peluso, Pearlman, or Soundelux U95). I’m also considering getting a ribbon…

I don't think the selection is as important as the sound of the room and the corresponding placement of the microphone.

From your list, I would try them in this order:

The new tube mic you are getting (depending on which one)
SM7
U87
C414

[untitledtopher]

as a bass player i'll throw my two cents in, i generally record directly, but if the artists tone comes mainly from their amp then there is really no choice. what amp you use really depends on the type of music. for that old school rock tone most people go for an ampeg, both the solid state and tube models are great for that tone. if you want something very versitile check out eden amps, defaintly my favorites, they are hybrid amps, half tube half solid state, best of both worlds and they do it well. a lot of people also swear by GK amps for rock, which are solid state, not my favorites but lots of people dig them. remember that the speacker the amp is coming through is just as importance, and the size of the speaker (10", 12" ,15") can effect the sound a lot. i guess in the end, what kind of bass sound are you looking for?

[Doublehelix]

Lately, I have been recording 3 bass tracks:

1) Sansamp Bass Driver DI

2) Miked bass cabinet

3) Direct DI'ed signal for later (possible) reamping

Unless a reamp is needed, I just blend the Sansamp DI signal with the miked signal, watching for phase (timing) issues and adjusting accordlingly.

Works great, and gives me the best of both worlds.

[barthowk]

Originally Posted by untitledtopher

as a bass player i'll throw my two cents in, i generally record directly, but if the artists tone comes mainly from their amp then there is really no choice. what amp you use really depends on the type of music. for that old school rock tone most people go for an ampeg, both the solid state and tube models are great for that tone. if you want something very versitile check out eden amps, defaintly my favorites, they are hybrid amps, half tube half solid state, best of both worlds and they do it well. a lot of people also swear by GK amps for rock, which are solid state, not my favorites but lots of people dig them. remember that the speacker the amp is coming through is just as importance, and the size of the speaker (10", 12" ,15") can effect the sound a lot. i guess in the end, what kind of bass sound are you looking for?

Generally, more modern aggresive sounds (kind of a mix between Jimmy Eat World, Evanescence, Linkin Park, Kid Rock rock stuff). But I don't do that stuff exclusively - I also do more soft acoustic stuff occasionally, so I don't want a "pigeon holed" tone.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

$1000 or so can get 'ya a lot of bass amp.

Mesa Boogie makes a combo called the Walkabout that has the ampiest-sounding DI I've ever recorded. And the DI's output comes after the amp's very nice and adjustable parametric EQ.

The sound outta the amp is good, but I've never recorded it, so I can't say how it would suit your purposes.

I think they're about a grand.

I'll include an mp3 so you can hear it. There's not a whole lot done in terms of EQ or compression. There's a gentle high shelf at 3k or so, and a low cut somewhere in the 200s (I don't remember any of the exact numbers, plus this is a rough mix). I'm not even sure if there's any compression...this is actually one of the only sessions I've ever done where I didn't feel the need to compress the bass to tape. There might've been a bit of RComp on there (not more than 2-3dB) for the headphone mix, but I don't really remember.

[mrface2112]

on a whim i ran a bass track (early 70's p bass DI'd through a Countryman) back through a silverface fender champ, pretty much cranked all the way up. i can't begin to describe to you what that did to the sound, outside of "it was exactly what i was looking for on that song". that 8in Weber speaker really moved a lot of air, too--surprisingly so.

point being, there's treasure everywhere if you just get the inkling to try something out.


cheers,
wade

[sleepwalker]

I do both. I usually keep both, but I've kept just the amp and just the sansamp before as well.

Originally Posted by barthowk

I’ve always just used a Sansamp to record bass based on the recommendations I’ve read on how it good it sounds. Now that I’ve been doing this for a few years, I’m curious about the possible improvement in bass tone I could get by using an actual bass amp. I’m not really unhappy with my bass tone, just curious if I could improve it. Have you found that miking and/or direct recording a good bass amp produces substantially better results than just recording direct through a Sansamp?

If yes, then I have 3 questions:
1) Are tube bass amps basically always better than solid-state (like with guitar amps)?
2) What are some good bass amps I should look at ($1,000 range)?
3) What are some good bass amp mics I should loot at?

BTW, I’m using an American Fender Precision bass.

Thanks!

[barthowk]

Any recommendations for a combo?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by barthowk

Any recommendations for a combo?

http://www.zzounds.com/item--AMPB100R

[DarkSky]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

RE20s, 421s, SM57s, SM7s, U47fet, 4047, ATM25 (shh...that one's a secret weapon of sorts).

Great list - but, interestingly it leaves of both of the Mics that I'd rate as my top two for bass. The Beyerdynamic M380 and the AKG D12E (*not* the D112!). Both of them capture enough character definition and girth to power a locomotive.

[pgk]

Phil Chen: Jamerson borrowed his technique from his upright skills, which gave him hand strength. His stock sunburst ’62 P-Bass, the “Funk Machine,” had high action and foam under the bridge cover. He used La Bella flatwounds, gauges .052–.110, that he rarely changed. You can still buy the same-gauge set today; they have blue silk windings on the ends. In Hitsville’s Studio A he recorded direct by plugging into one of five inputs in the wall. Each had a volume control, and he would boost the signal so the VU meter was slightly in the red, giving him a bit of warm overdrive from the tube console. His bass then went through a Fairchild limiter and a Pultec EQ, and he’d hear it through a Bozak monitor in the studio. In later sessions he would occasionally use his miked Ampeg B-15.

Veteran L.A. bassist and Jamaica native Phil Chen is best known for his work with Rod Stewart, Jeff Beck, and John Fogerty. He worked extensively behind the scenes on the 2003 documentary film of the Funk Brothers, Standing in the Shadows of Motown.

http://www.casadistortion.com/amp1.html

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by DarkSky

Great list - but, interestingly it leaves of both of the Mics that I'd rate as my top two for bass. The Beyerdynamic M380 and the AKG D12E (*not* the D112!). Both of them capture enough character definition and girth to power a locomotive.

I'm not familiar with the M380...I'll hafta check the mic cabinets of some of the studios I work at for it.

As for the D12E, it's great when you place it *just* right, but that thing is FICKLE!! A bit too unforgiving for my taste (one engineer I know told me that when it came out, it was actually advertised as having the biggest proximity effect of any mic ever...eek!).

[DarkSky]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

... the D12E, it's great when you place it *just* right, but that thing is FICKLE!! A bit too unforgiving for my taste (one engineer I know told me that when it came out, it was actually advertised as having the biggest proximity effect of any mic ever...

Well yes, granted, if you go in *too* close with the D12E, there is a risk of triggering seismic activity. The thing is just massive. But position it right and it yields an amazing combination of intimacy, spaciousness and raw thump.

And if you take it in a little closer on an amp that has more bite than balls, the sound fills out and takes on solidity and weight - without losing its edginess.

Conversely if you put it right up near the baffle, but then blend just tiny amounts of it with a DI signal (eg Sansamp) it adds dimensionality and gut-punch - kinda like bringing up a sub on a live rig, for want of a better description.

So you can make it work for you and it actually gives you a lot of control IMO.

[DarkSky]