A Question For The Studio Owner/Engineers Here.

[Mark]

What proportion of the drummers that come through your doors

A: Suck so bad it's painful to have to be in the same County as them.

B: Have the potential but should have spent a little more time practising before entering a studio.

C: Can play okay (Keeps time well, doesn't stray too far from the beat; even when doing fairly complicated fills), but are maybe lacking a little technically.

D: Play well and have excellent technique.

E: Are virtual percussion Gods that even Bonzo would bow down to!

[Mark]

That's Bonzo as in John Bonham. Not the chimp that was the star of some films featuring a former U.S. President.

[shikawkee]

Way too many of A, B and C over the last 11 years I'm afraid. It's frightening how few really take their job seriously.
It's gotten to the point that I'll only record with one of three or four different drummers I know for my own stuff, that's for sure.

Of course, if I could get Ringo I'd use him too .

[RichT]

Originally posted by Mark
What proportion of the drummers that come through your doors

A: Suck so bad it's painful to have to be in the same County as them.

B: Have the potential but should have spent a little more time practising before entering a studio.

C: Can play okay (Keeps time well, doesn't stray too far from the beat; even when doing fairly complicated fills), but are maybe lacking a little technically.

D: Play well and have excellent technique.

E: Are virtual percussion Gods that even Bonzo would bow down to!

19% Suck - To the point they bring the whole band down

79% Can Play - Strengths in some areas, overall can do the job

2% Amazing - I am lucky enough to record two drummers who are technically amazing but also have the imagination that makes them more than just great session players.

[Mark]

It'll be interesting to see how many of you answer this thread and how the numbers will stack up on each side of the Atlantic. I have a hunch that the current crop of British amateur and semi-pro musicians might be of a higher calibre than their American counterparts. Especially if Shikawkee and Rich T's answers are indicative of future trends.

Or perhaps we're just less judgemental over here

[zakco]

For several years it was almost exclusively A/B/C

Lately however I have been able to convince several clients that they will actually SAVE money by hiring a seasoned studio pro instead of their cousin's neighbor who used to play drums in high school back in the early 80s. I've usually get my point across by playing them some examples of my work that showcase the 2 extremes. Once they've heard the hack compared directly to the pro, they are usually willing to listen to my suggestions.

I'd say the current ratio is about 60/40 in favour of D and rarely an occasional E.

Had a great drum session last week with one of this area's finest. Makes my job SO much easier.

When you're dealing with bands though, it's pretty difficult to fire their drummer an hour into the first session. I usually end up spending a day or two editing the hack into some semblance of usuable tracks. Not my idea of a good time....


-Z-

[littledog]

New poll:

Why do so many engineers seem to focus on (and complain about) the lousy drummers, as opposed to the lousy bass players, guitarists, vocalists, etc.?

a) Because many engineers have no musical ability, so they can't hear "subtle" things like intonation problems, bad phrasing, trite licks, etc. But they sometimes can hear when the drummer drops a beat. Sometimes.

b) Because drums are the most important instrument, because anything else can be more easily retracked or fixed in the mix.

c) Because everyone knows that people with the least musical ability become drummers.

d) Because all of the above.

[RichT]

Originally posted by littledog
New poll:

Why do so many engineers seem to focus on (and complain about) the lousy drummers, as opposed to the lousy bass players, guitarists, vocalists, etc.?

a) Because many engineers have no musical ability, so they can't hear "subtle" things like intonation problems, bad phrasing, trite licks, etc. But they sometimes can hear when the drummer drops a beat. Sometimes.

b) Because drums are the most important instrument, because anything else can be more easily retracked or fixed in the mix.

c) Because everyone knows that people with the least musical ability become drummers.

d) Because all of the above.

B almost all of the time. If the drums suck, even the best played bass and guitar will sound bad.

I'm hard on all musicians who claim to play to a 'standard', I was a pro muso for two years (after having played all in all for over fifteen years).

[nbutter]

i don't have as much studio experience as most here, but from a critical/A&R perspective, having seen maybe 1000+ developing rock acts over the last 10 years, I've definitely found that the single rarest component is a great vocalist, and the second rarest is a great drummer.

to put it more bluntly, the number one reason bands suck is shitty vocals. the number two reason is shitty drums.

i don't think it's a matter of engineers complaining about 'em because they don't understand...

i think it's just that playing drums well is actually a lot frickin' harder than playing guitar or bass well (and i'm a bass player)!

takes talent, training, and relentless dedication as far as i can tell.

i will say that the other players in the BAND often don't know enough about drums to demand more of their drummer. they don't speak the language and often don't have the inner sense of tempo needed to really be critical. so shitty drummers get away with murder.

now, all of the above primarily relates to rock. on the other hand...what's the last live R&B act you saw with a really crappy drummer.?

[joeq]

Talented young musicians can make explosive progress on any instrument, but the valued aspect of drumming is not flash or fire, but feel, solidity and precision. These are qualities rare in young players.

I actually don't think it's strictly an age thing. I believe it's "reps". An older drummer has simply played a couple million more eighth notes than his younger counterpart. I think something happens when you do an action that many times- those synapses are deeply grooved and the timing is locked down. The precision and feel gets to another level.

[RichT]

Originally posted by joeq
Talented young musicians can make explosive progress on any instrument, but the valued aspect of drumming is not flash or fire, but feel, solidity and precision. These are qualities rare in young players.

I actually don't think it's strictly an age thing. I believe it's "reps". An older drummer has simply played a couple million more eighth notes than his younger counterpart. I think something happens when you do an action that many times- those synapses are deeply grooved and the timing is locked down. The precision and feel gets to another level.

Bad habits are also impossible to get rid of...like bad timing.

[CV7]

I've found many good drummers, but most the time they still have to use a click.

[Fleaman]

Compared to the rest of the musicians, drummers tend to have the least amount of time (practice) on the instrument than say a guitarist.

It's no fun playing the drums alone...even along to a CD.

It's even less fun practicing on a pad.

And if you live in anything other than a sound proofed studio

How about what the future of a drummer in a band might look like:
> Smallest $$$ cut to him/her. Even if he/she writes all the drum parts.
> The 1st member most likely to be replaced by a pro-session player...even if not REALLY necessary. The 1st thing a producer decides is if/and/who to replace the drummer with.
> Most likely to be fired because of above.
> Then replaced with a hired gun that plays your parts!
> Tracks most likely to be "Beat detective'd", even if not REALLY needed (many session drummers tracks get the same treatment).
> The brunt of most musician jokes.
> Most likely to get Carpel tunnel, tendonitis, etc.
> Most likely to lose hearing if no protection is used.
> You're hidden in the back while everyone up front gets the spotlight.
> Lots of heavy back breaking equipment to **** up your spine.

Its no wonder good drummers are hard to come by.

Besides, if the White Stripes can make it...

Fleaman

[doug_hti]

Originally posted by CV7
I've found many good drummers, but most the time they still have to use a click.

do they "have" to use a click or maybe "prefer" using a click, as it contributes a cohesivness to the track that they can push/pull/lock to

5% A: Suck so bad it's painful to have to be in the same County as them.

60% B: Have the potential but should have spent a little more time practising before entering a studio.

20% C: Can play okay (Keeps time well, doesn't stray too far from the beat; even when doing fairly complicated fills), but are maybe lacking a little technically.

10% D: Play well and have excellent technique.

5% E: Are virtual percussion Gods that even Bonzo would bow down to!

-------------------------------------

Why do so many engineers seem to focus on (and complain about) the lousy drummers, as opposed to the lousy bass players, guitarists, vocalists, etc.?

b) Because drums are the most important instrument, because anything else can be more easily retracked or fixed in the mix. And because of all instuments, sh!t drums on digital sound sh!ttyer that shit drums on analog. So if you are using digital and have a shitty drummer you are TOTALLY screwed. On analog tape at least you get SOME sort of physical / magneto sympathy vote from the particles on tape that can help bury problems or at least make them seem not quite so bad...

With 'live drum kit'

Analog tape = soft focus reproduction of a shit drummer
Digital = Cold, clear, sharp macro photography reproduction of a shit drummer

IMHO

[Critic]

Originally posted by nbutter
i don't have as much studio experience as most here, but from a critical/A&R perspective, having seen maybe 1000+ developing rock acts over the last 10 years, I've definitely found that the single rarest component is a great vocalist, and the second rarest is a great drummer.

to put it more bluntly, the number one reason bands suck is shitty vocals. the number two reason is shitty drums.

i don't think it's a matter of engineers complaining about 'em because they don't understand...

i think it's just that playing drums well is actually a lot frickin' harder than playing guitar or bass well (and i'm a bass player)!

takes talent, training, and relentless dedication as far as i can tell.

i will say that the other players in the BAND often don't know enough about drums to demand more of their drummer. they don't speak the language and often don't have the inner sense of tempo needed to really be critical. so shitty drummers get away with murder.

now, all of the above primarily relates to rock. on the other hand...what's the last live R&B act you saw with a really crappy drummer.?

Amen, amen.

I am lucky bec Im a drummer, studied theory in college and studied rock, fun, jazz and latin drums for several years. I generally play on my clients stuff and I would say nbutter is right on about most musicians not having a clue about drums, what they do to the phrasing of the vocals, what fills build energy, what fills kill a groove's energy and what syncopation and interesting accents are about. Part of this has to do with the very, very mediocre and unimaginative state of drumming (and guitar and bass for that matter) in rock today and part and parcel of the profound medicority of most wanna be rock stars.

As for bad vocalists, everyone thinks they can sing. Stuff like tone, expression, pitch, phrasing, and stage presence, dont really factor in to the average singer's decision to get in front of a mic. Naturally.

[Steve Smith]

Originally posted by joeq
Talented young musicians can make explosive progress on any instrument, but the valued aspect of drumming is not flash or fire, but feel, solidity and precision. These are qualities rare in young players.

I actually don't think it's strictly an age thing. I believe it's "reps". An older drummer has simply played a couple million more eighth notes than his younger counterpart. I think something happens when you do an action that many times- those synapses are deeply grooved and the timing is locked down. The precision and feel gets to another level.

Interesting, we just had this discussion at the studio today. I think that the currdct crop of bad drumming ( or worse than just bad,... tasteless drumming. ) is due mostly to the real lack of "groove" oriented music being made. Most kids I know who are "drummers" are better programmers than players, and if you listen to the radio, you can soon see IMHO why this is ..... I would think that if you grew up in the 60s and 70s you were totally into just grooving along with a tight rhythm section, whearas these days it is all programmed or Carter Beauford ( no real disrespect intended) Music now is way more about Playing with loops or playing overly technical parts ( read Dream Theater wannabees) The problem,is that most of the kids out there just don;t have a passion for fundamentals, and thier friends arent impressed with solid playing, they are impressed with double kicks and china cymbals in rapid succession.

[Bob Olhsson]

The skill of an engineer is frequently judged by the drum sound they get. I know a few drummers who have made quite a few engineers' careers...

[bjornson]

[quote]Originally posted by littledog
[b]New poll:

"c) Because everyone knows that people with the least musical ability become drummers."

WWHHAATT?
I have rarely if EVER flamed somebody on this board, but thats simply moronic.
I regularly work with drummer/percussionists who can
a) Play two or three other instruments well enough to get session work,
b) Could sight read you under the table in three clefs,
c) Can finish the sunday NY times crossword,
d) Would kik your ass for silly vague generalizations,
e) Take home that $200,000/yr symphony paycheck
f) all of the above


You need to record better talent!!!

[littledog]

Bjorn,

I posted that "poll" because I feel exactly like you do, and was wondering why people always single out drummers to moan about.

This semester's course, Recognizing Sarcasm 101 will be starting up shortly. In your case, attendence is mandatory.

[davemc]

I think a lot of Muso's over play parts now instead of putting the song as the most important thing. Also a lot of Drummer and Bass players get bored easy just grooving on a song. They write interesting bits instead. As such they play above and out of the abilities for the parts. And then suck.. (I have had a guy come in and asked about beat dectective as he cannot play the fills he wants in time We are talking before they even setup)

As the drums are the cornerstone of the band, if they suck your in trouble. You can always talk to the bass player, guitarist or vocalist later.

I normally only use a click if the band brings one in.

[jackassman]

Originally posted by littledog
New poll:

Why do so many engineers seem to focus on (and complain about) the lousy drummers, as opposed to the lousy bass players, guitarists, vocalists, etc.?



b) Because drums are the most important instrument, because anything else can be more easily retracked or fixed in the mix.

B

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by nbutter
to put it more bluntly, the number one reason bands suck is shitty vocals. the number two reason is shitty drums.

A really good AE once told me that a band is only as strong as their drummer and as weak as their singer.

And it's 100% true.

For the original poll I get a lot of C and a bit of D. Once in a while I get B and those players just suck. If I get someone who just can't play I either kick 'em out of the place or just deal with it depending on how much time they booked.

Jules, I gotta disagree to a point on the analog vs. digital thing on drums. The worse the drummer is the more important it is to track to a DAW, sound be damned. At that point cutting to a click and using a grid is key.

Damn, I can't believe I just typed that. Someone should take my Studer away.

[littledog]

Just answer the question, J.A.Man. Don't beat it into the ground!

[bjornson]

sorry bro didn't mean to bark at ya... I'll be in class early

[JordanDRUM]

most inexperienced drummers, i find, just dont hit hard enough. most young bands emulate and look up to either heavy bands or punk/emo flavor of the week bands, yet they wonder why they dont have the kicking drum sound. i dont care what kit you use - you hit a kick and snare hard enough and even enough, and the tune will drive.

As a drummer, a piece of advice, if you are going to make a rock record (and dont want your engineer to have to do some major studio chemistry with transients) then just hit harder. practice 1 and 3 on the kick and 2 and 4 on the snare with eighths on the hats. you will rock. listen to phil ruud with acdc and dave grohl.

[leckieisagod]

In my experience, the biggest problem with drummers is not merely timing or poorly executed fills, it's that the majority of them are reluctant to play what best suits the song as they would rather demonstrate how well they can play. This applies to other musicians, so it's not just drummers, but as far as the dynamics of a track go, the drummer can make or break that track. Knowing what not to play is often more important than knowing what to play.
Also, I do not agree that most drummers don't hit hard enough - I think that when every beat is hit as hard as possible, every little nuance from the performance is removed and the resulting track sounds one-dimensional and flat as a result. Just my $0.02!

[RKrizman]

Originally posted by leckieisagod
[b]In my experience, the biggest problem with drummers is not merely timing or poorly executed fills, it's that the majority of them are reluctant to play what best suits the song as they would rather demonstrate how well they can play. ]

And it's no wonder. When a band goes in to make a record now everybody involved in the process is looking at the drummer and thinking "Well?" I mean, while the guy's still unpacking his cymbals the producer is reaching for his Rolodex. It's enough to make anybody rush their fills.

Bonzo wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in today's climate.


-R

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
A really good AE once told me that a band is only as strong as their drummer and as weak as their singer.

And it's 100% true. ...

I'd put it like this. A band or a re