Recorderman OH Technique Question

[drBill]

Hi guys! I've got a question for you that are using the recorderman OH drum technique. I've been quite sucessful recording drums with AB spaced OH LDC's (67's/87's/414's/C12's) directly over the kit and also with near-coincident SDC's (KM84's) near the front edge of the kick facing the drummer and pointing back towards the outer edges of the kit at around 90-110 degrees, but I wanted to try the recorderman technique.

So....the drummer shows up, and no matter how hard we tried, I couldn't get the mics perfectly equidistant from the K and Sn at the same time. I can get them the same distance from the sn, or from the kick, but not both at the same time. We both tried for about 15 minutes and gave up.

So now I'm feeling like I'm in an evil recording worm hole episode of the Twilight Zone. What the heck am I doing wrong? The video makes it look so easy..... Will be trying again tomorrow.....

THANKS!

bp

[not_so_new]

Okay first, this is not "Recorderman's" technique, you know that right?



Second here is a little trick for you.

Get a long string, 10 feet or so should do it maybe less depending on where you are putting the mics.

Place the mic you are using above the snare where you want it. Take one end of the string and tape it to the middle of the snare drum. Hold the string between your fingers and pull the lose end of the string up to where you think the front side of the capsule is on the "over snare" mic. Mark the point where the string intersects the capsule with a pen or a piece of tape.

Keeping the string tight between the snare and the over snare mic (be careful to not pull the taped side off the snare) hold the string between your fingers on the other hand and pull it down to the center of the kick drum and tape the other end of string where it meets the kick head.

You now have an upside down "V" right? Hold the string at the point where you marked it with the pen. If you think of that as an ark at any point in it's path you will be at the same distance between the kick and snare. You can place your other mic at any point along this ark.

Obviously you need to user your ears to get the mics in phase after this but if you do the steps above you should be pretty close at this point.

That said, I really like this technique for rock, pop and maybe roots rock but not something I use for heavy stuff at all so YMMV.

Good luck.

[MJGreene Audio]

A couple of things to keep in mind. The Glyn Johns Techniquie that this is based on or copied from is not sacred. I know from looking and pictures is that Glyn very often never actuall put them exactly the same distance from each other. He just did what sounded great and matched gain to get them the same.

Also a friend of mine assisted on some Ethan Johns sessions (Glyns Son) and he usually used to U-67's an NEVER had them the sam distance. Listen to Ray LaMantagnes record. That is the set up and it sounds amazing.

In todays world of big drum kits and LOTS of cymbals it may not always be possilble to get everything exactly the same distance. Watch out for the "Over Tom Mic" being in the way of the cymbals and watch out for the wooshing/phasing sound that you get when the cymbals are to close to the mic and they phase in the pattern of the microphone.

Most of all depending on the drummer find the spot where the coverage is the best and then save yourself a suicide attempt and check them in mono before you continue. As a matter of course always do this with a drum kit regardless of whether you use 3 mics or 30. You will be amazed at what you find and if you catch it early on you can not only make your drums sound a thousand times better but can also make small adjustments that will make your drum kit sing!!!

It is a great technique that doesn't always work for everything but can work really well for most applications.

Use your ears and experiment with variations. You can make it work but don't just stick with the hard and fast rules. Break them.

It is not a spectator sport! It is a listening game!

Michael Greene

[ScumBum]

Originally Posted by MJGreene Audio

save yourself a suicide attempt and check them in mono before you continue. As a matter of course always do this with a drum kit regardless of whether you use 3 mics or 30. You will be amazed at what you find and if you catch it early on you can not only make your drums sound a thousand times better but can also make small adjustments that will make your drum kit sing!!!



Michael Greene

Can someone explain this a little more ?

What do you listen for ?

[u b k]

Originally Posted by MushroomKingdom

What do you listen for ?

the low end getting lighter when the mics are collapsed to mono. this is the most obvious way that phase issues show up: bass and low mid cancellation. ideally, the sound is just as full, if not fuller, in mono.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[MJGreene Audio]

Originally Posted by u b i k

the low end getting lighter when the mics are collapsed to mono. this is the most obvious way that phase issues show up: bass and low mid cancellation. ideally, the sound is just as full, if not fuller, in mono.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Exactly

[blackcatdigi]

I love this minimalist setup, but (at least with all the rock stuff I do) this technique has become pretty much non-applicable and not at all relevant. Everyone wants the drums to "sound like Bonham, man"... That is, until they actually hear they hear them in a mix. Unfortunately, that 'sound' is not going to cut through your guitar player's 37 tracks of Rectifier(s), dude.

Perhaps we'll cycle out of the 'ear-on-the-drums' trend were caught in eventually...

Till then, I just keep this filed away for (possible) future reference.

Here's to hoping YMMV!

[drBill]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

If you think of that as an ark at any point in it's path you will be at the same distance between the kick and snare. You can place your other mic at any point along this ark.

Not So New - thanks that did the trick. Thinking "arc" a lightbulb went off. I was trying to get the second mic too far towards the toms and not in BACK of the drummer. I was remembering a picture, but it was probably two dimensional and I didn't realize how far back the second mic goes. Weird if you've never done it like this before. Once I realized that was where it needed to go, it was a no-brainer. Tracked funk drums today and it killed. Also used an ORTF setup over the drummers head pointing down towards the toms with KM84's and that was excellent as well - with a wider stereo image, but at the cost of a little "beef". Both translated excellent into Mono. Thanks guys. bp

[Nu-tra]

does this technique work well with a bigger kit with close mics? will I get a nice left and right does this give you a mono kina sound I like hearing my overheads left and right in the stereo field.

[kats]

The L/R image is very good.

[Nu-tra]

Wow judging from pics and video it looks like it doesn't but then again I have never heard it on my drums. I want that left and right cymbal field. Now is this if you don't want to use close mics? and is the over the shoulder mic pointing at the snare? My cymbals and toms are higher than the ones in the recorderman video will it matter?

I'm gonna try it.

[kittyboy]

Can someone provide links to the video/pictures?
Thanks!

[scrubs]

Originally Posted by kittyboy

Can someone provide links to the video/pictures?
Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

[photoresistor]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

That said, I really like this technique for rock, pop and maybe roots rock but not something I use for heavy stuff at all so YMMV.

Good luck.

hey not_so_new, i was just curious which OH micing methods you tend to use for heavier stuff? ive used the so-called 'recorderman method' before with some success but im going to be recording a heavier band soon and would like to get some ideas/suggestions for techniques to try out.

thanks!

(of course open to anyone who'd like to comment!)

[jangoux]

For you guys that don't like this technique on heavier stuff, a question : Why you don't ?

I understand that for metal and it's subgenres, drum room sounds is not often desireble (due to the sample replacing or whatever), or the fullness that it might give on the final mix might collapse against the 45 tracks of rectifier-recorded guitars. But how about going a little lighter...like nickelback, foo fighter or any of those modern rock bands. In you opinion, would it work for such bands ?

Nu-tra, once i recorded drums with this technique and the tom had a greater separation than with spaced pair. I could easily tell where on the stereo field the toms were. However, the cymbals were more centered than with spaced pair.

[Nu-tra]

I'm totally gonna try it when I get home... I'm still not sure where the over the shoulder mic points to. Does that point to the snare too?

[kittyboy]

Originally Posted by scrubs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

Thanks!

I'm gonna try it this weekend.

[jangoux]

Originally Posted by Nu-tra

I'm totally gonna try it when I get home... I'm still not sure where the over the shoulder mic points to. Does that point to the snare too?

When i read about the technique for the first time, it was told to point the mic to the snare but that wasn't a set rule. When i used it, i pointed between the floor tom and the ride cymbal to give a better stereo spread than everything at the snare. But when recording full band rehearsal and so, i like to point everythign at the snare to make it punchier.

[Nu-tra]

Holy Crap!

I just tried it out. What a trip! It sounds nothing like it looks (does that make sense?) The one over my shoulder is kinda weird but the cymbals sound nice! They both sound the same!

[Nu-tra]

The hat sounds like it's in the middle but it's obvious that the hat is loud. the spread on the cymbals could be wider for my tastes but hey this is still great. Is there another method that will give me a better spread on the cymbals? The toms are wide dang!

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by photoresistor

hey not_so_new, i was just curious which OH micing methods you tend to use for heavier stuff? ive used the so-called 'recorderman method' before with some success but im going to be recording a heavier band soon and would like to get some ideas/suggestions for techniques to try out.

thanks!

(of course open to anyone who'd like to comment!)

Hey photoresistor

Not to get all philosophical with ya but here is how I approach a tracking season. Sorry if these seems a little corny, it is how I view it in my mind I have never really put it all into words before....

Sooooo....

Some music is "real" and some music is "hyper-real."

"WTF are you talking about" you ask?

"Real" is the performance in a room as it is. "Hyper-real" is a made up fantasy of how we wish the performance in a room sounded, it is beyond reality. A real kick drum in a room NEVER sounds like the "hyper-real" kick in the recording. The one real guitar player never sounds like a "hyper-real" wall of guitars in the mix.

Most Jazz is "real" as is most classical. Most rock / pop is middle of the road between "real" and "hyper-real," roots rock being more "real" and radio rock leaning more "hyper-real." Most heavy stuff and rap is all the way over to the "hyper-real" side. kick drums don't sound like that for real in a room, neither does the bass, reverbs are usually not that perfect with the exact predelay in a real room etc.

Close micing is one of the ways to achieve "hyper-real" in the mix. Other things to think about might be the amount of overdubs, for rock anyway, and how to get the sounds to fit together.

So as I get a feel for the band before tracking I think about mic setups based on where in the spectrum I want the finished production to be between real and hyper-real. Some mic techniques are more "real" and some are more "hyper-real."

A "real" (like a jazz session) mic set up might be a few spot mics or even just one mic and getting the correct balance by moving people closer or away.

Middle of the road leaning toward "real" (like roots rock) might be all the players in the same room with lots of bleed, one guitar amp and a natural drum sound with a slight bit of augmentation by close mics. A "recorderman" set up really helps to let the drums breath and take up their own space here, maybe combined with a little kick mic and some rooms. "Recorderman" is a "real" mic technique to my ears, sounds a whole lot like a real kit in a room.

Middle of the road leaning towards "hyper-real" (like a radio rock band) might be a little distant drum micing but more close mics and more guitar layers. Usually that means a spaced pair or an XY overhead setup for me. Still capturing the whole kit but starting to feature the cymbals a little more, sort of cheating in that direction.

A "hyper-real" session (like a really heavy band) would have lots of close micing with as much separation between the elements as I can get. Almost all "replaced ambiance" meaning digital reverbs, plates, delays all stuff I can control to sit exactly in the mix as I want them when the time comes.

With that thinking in mind for a heavy session I start to lean towards the cymbals as their own instrument. You will never achieve 100% rejection on the overheads but I want as little tom over ring and snare in them as I can. The goal is not to get a real sound from the kit, it is to get me as much control to create the hyper-real version of the kit I need come mix time...

Sorry for the long post, wonder if anyone is still reading??? LOL (I'll let myself out...... thanks)

[CrazyBeast]

xlnt post!

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Hey photoresistor

Not to get all philosophical with ya but here is how I approach a tracking season. Sorry if these seems a little corny, it is how I view it in my mind I have never really put it all into words before....

Sooooo....

Some music is "real" and some music is "hyper-real."

"WTF are you talking about" you ask?

"Real" is the performance in a room as it is. "Hyper-real" is a made up fantasy of how we wish the performance in a room sounded, it is beyond reality. A real kick drum in a room NEVER sounds like the "hyper-real" kick in the recording. The one real guitar player never sounds like a "hyper-real" wall of guitars in the mix.

Most Jazz is "real" as is most classical. Most rock / pop is middle of the road between "real" and "hyper-real," roots rock being more "real" and radio rock leaning more "hyper-real." Most heavy stuff and rap is all the way over to the "hyper-real" side. kick drums don't sound like that for real in a room, neither does the bass, reverbs are usually not that perfect with the exact predelay in a real room etc.

Close micing is one of the ways to achieve "hyper-real" in the mix. Other things to think about might be the amount of overdubs, for rock anyway, and how to get the sounds to fit together.

So as I get a feel for the band before tracking I think about mic setups based on where in the spectrum I want the finished production to be between real and hyper-real. Some mic techniques are more "real" and some are more "hyper-real."

A "real" (like a jazz session) mic set up might be a few spot mics or even just one mic and getting the correct balance by moving people closer or away.

Middle of the road leaning toward "real" (like roots rock) might be all the players in the same room with lots of bleed, one guitar amp and a natural drum sound with a slight bit of augmentation by close mics. A "recorderman" set up really helps to let the drums breath and take up their own space here, maybe combined with a little kick mic and some rooms. "Recorderman" is a "real" mic technique to my ears, sounds a whole lot like a real kit in a room.

Middle of the road leaning towards "hyper-real" (like a radio rock band) might be a little distant drum micing but more close mics and more guitar layers. Usually that means a spaced pair or an XY overhead setup for me. Still capturing the whole kit but starting to feature the cymbals a little more, sort of cheating in that direction.

A "hyper-real" session (like a really heavy band) would have lots of close micing with as much separation between the elements as I can get. Almost all "replaced ambiance" meaning digital reverbs, plates, delays all stuff I can control to sit exactly in the mix as I want them when the time comes.

With that thinking in mind for a heavy session I start to lean towards the cymbals as their own instrument. You will never achieve 100% rejection on the overheads but I want as little tom over ring and snare in them as I can. The goal is not to get a real sound from the kit, it is to get me as much control to create the hyper-real version of the kit I need come mix time...

Sorry for the long post, wonder if anyone is still reading??? LOL (I'll let myself out...... thanks)

[mds]

Do you guys usually us a matched pair for this? If not, what mic combos work well?

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by CrazyBeast

xlnt post!

Thanks dude....

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by mds

Do you guys usually us a matched pair for this? If not, what mic combos work well?

I think most guys do but for me, lately it has been a Coles 4040 over snare and an R121 "ride side."

I heard Fletcher say something about liking the results from a non matched pair of overheads for rock. I don't always agree with him but on this one I do.

First in a standard rock mix I seriously doubt that someone is going to notice a huge difference.

Second... I don't know.. seems to add a little character to the drums with a little different vibe from each side of the kit... or it is compensating for my bad ears? LOL But that is really only when they are soloed, as I said in the mix it is a pretty small difference.... It's only rock and roll.

I say, if you want to see how the technique works for you in your studio and you don't have a matched pair don't sweat it.

[BradD]

Gosh! In that video the over the snare mic if doing some serious bouncing! I think the drummer mistook the mic stand for the hihat pedal.

[Robearto4]

Originally Posted by BradD

Gosh! In that video the over the snare mic if doing some serious bouncing! I think the drummer mistook the mic stand for the hihat pedal.

Haha, agreed. This is quite the interesting drum miking technique that I have not heard yet, and with only two mics its perfect for my mobile mbox. I hope to try this technique next week (against a spaced pair and xy) and let you know my results.

[Jax]

Originally Posted by scrubs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ

I wonder if the engineer notices how much the mics are wobbling around while the drummer plays?

Instant defeating the purpose with every wiggle of the mics! They're bobbing around a good 1/2 inch. Whatever surface the kit is on needs to be repaired or replaced!

[centurymantra]

Originally Posted by Jax

I wonder if the engineer notices how much the mics are wobbling around while the drummer plays?

Instant defeating the purpose with every wiggle of the mics! They're bobbing around a good 1/2 inch. Whatever surface the kit is on needs to be repaired or replaced!

I remember noticing that too. I just shrugged and figured it was for purely demonstrative purposes, guessing they wouldn't settle for that in an actual session. Then again....

BTW, I occasionally use this setup and it can get a great sound. If you haven't tried it, take a crack at using two different mics. This is actually quite cool. I may even prefer it. Last time I tried this, it was an AT 4047 over the snare and an M160 over the shoulder. Sounded real nice!

[Bobbob]

Could you add close mics with the Recorderman Technique? Or does that defeat the purpose?

I'm recording a drummer next week in a home environment. I have 2 1073dpd, so 4 channels. I was going to go mono overhead, kick, snare, room. Or some variant. Then i read about the Recorderman technique and its made me rethink.


Thanks.

BTW I should have added that i'm after a relatively close drum sound. Less cymbal, more drum. In the fashion of Sufjan Stevens, Iron & Wine etc.