Best drums / cymbals for recording?

speerchucker · 29th November 2003, 10:38 PM

I posted this also on Expert forums, but this is kind of fitting on Jules' forum as well, so:

There have been a ton of threads concerning mics & pres fro drums, and various recording techniques. Yet I have never seen any serious discussion of the most important element: The source. I’d like to start a discussion of what actual drums and cymbals you have used to get “magic” tracks.

I’ve tried in vain to ask actual drummers about this, but (insert favorite drummer joke here) most drummers are understandably concerned primarily with live playing. Obviously, what works well for live performance does not necessarily work well for recording. A point has even be made that very resonant drums may in fact record badly. I don't know if I agree, but that’s an interesting and valid point for discussion.

SO....

What particular kits have worked well for you, in the studio? Please menbtion the genre recorded as well, as that is obviously critical to the discussion. There is of course the ubiquitous Yamaha recording custom series. That's birch, and I have always LOVED the old Gretsch birch drums. Hmmm, I see a patttern there. -but maple seems to be the most common type available. Also, for all it’s warmth, birch may not have enough “cut” for modern, aggressive genres. -Or does it? I also now see some hybrids being made with birch or mahogony centers and maple on the outside, made specifically for recording. SO:

type of wood?
Shell size?
Heads?
muffling?

Hats: I'm of the opinion that loud is better than soft, as this requires less of the spot mic (always a trade-off, due to snare and toms bleed) Yet, I see many drummer praising certain hats for being SOFT! What do you think? I can NEVER get enough hat in the O-H. -I suppose one could mention that the hats are 5-6ms behind in the O-H, and therefore a spot-mic on the hats is a good idea, hence 12’s and 13’s fro recording. Maybe that’s too anal?

Crashes: Traditional wisdom says to use thin crashes, so they don't ring too long. However, thin crashes lack a certain amount of balls. Is there a type of crash with mucho guaves yet still a short on sustain? is long sustain worth the trade-off for hard rock?

-And someone PLEASE explain piccolo snares to me. I don’t get it.

etc etc etc etc you get the idea.

Lay some opinions on me.....

Jason Poulin · 29th November 2003, 10:43 PM

The source begins before the kit.

magik tracks = magik drummers

I think an excellent drummer will make a Sears 250$ drumset shine provided the room is great!!!

He'll beat any 5000$ drumset played by a half decent drummer.

just my opinion

but that in combination with a good kit will make your day. I just worked with a Yamaha Maple Custom set which was heaven to record. Old Gretch snare too. Very lovely.

goodluck!

Jason

heinz · 30th November 2003, 12:17 AM

Yeah the pilot-not-the-plane theory is good, although at some point the Sears kit becomes sonically limiting. But I agree that a good drummer on a well maintained & tuned kit tends to make the actual gear somewhat irrelevant. The room is a huge factor.

For most drummers I know this is about application and preference. Top-of-the-line boutique sets i.e. Noble & Cooley, Pork Pie, etc.. are pretty damn good sounding. Old sets if well maintained i.e. early Rogers, Slingerland, etc.. are great sounding.

What pro drummers do you like the sound of? Go check out what gear they're using.

How cymbals sound has a LOT to do with the drummer, to the point where I feel it's almost purely subjective.

But in general I like older A Zildjians best... mine are all like 20+ years old and sound 'right' to me, but then I'm an older bastard. Had good luck recording 17 or 18" med or med thin crashes... don't like to go too lite unless it's for a specific sound.

Never usually have a problem getting good hi-hat in the overheads, unless the room is really dark sounding. Naturally mics play a role here. 14" A-Zildj New Beats are pretty good go-to hats. If you have the channels why not spot-mic it too and have it as backup?

good luck man!

ixnys · 30th November 2003, 12:36 AM

I love the Paiste cymbals. They are bright and not gongy sounding. They decay rather quickly. I prefer them to the Zildjian A Customs. Even a paiste 14" hihat is my very hi-hat for open thrashing rock. My 13" Ziljian A custom is good for fast closed hihat playing like 311.

So imho, Paiste's rule when it comes to rock!

Dave Martin · 30th November 2003, 12:55 AM

It IS the player - I've been using Pearls here for years - Originally a prototype of what became the Master Custom line (which had a finish even on the inside of the shells), and now have a tweaked out Export kit. Thedrums sound pretty much the same, because I usually use the same drummer. For that mater, he's a Gretsch endorsee, but claims that my Peals (which I traded him for) sound the same as his custom Gretsch recording kit.
Go figure...

dtobocman · 30th November 2003, 01:02 AM

Not really on topic, but make sure the drummer brings another snare or three to the session. Switching out snares can be "it" factor when going from tune to tune or trying to get the kit right for one particular song. Snare choice has a huge impact on the entire track.

denial · 30th November 2003, 01:30 AM

I'm a fan of darker cymbals live or in the studio so the Zildjian K Customs have been some of the most pleasing. They're also a little dryer than the rest of the range.

I've found the Paiste line to be considerably louder than most of the Zildjian line and generally not as smooth and sometimes overly bright and abrasive. I also find that Paiste crashes are prone to breaking quicker.

Bob Olhsson · 30th November 2003, 05:26 AM

Certainly the drummer is a lot of it but some drums record a lot better than others and heads make a huge difference in the amount of tone. I think thin ones sound the best but they have to be replaced really often and many younger drummers don't relate well to them.

In the '70s there were Gretsch toms and then there was everything else. I checked out the current Gretsch drums the year before last at NAMM and found them to be not even in the ball park of the quality I saw 25 years ago. The old ones were very round, very solid and had amazing cast brass hoops that wouldn't bend at all. With older drums you'll need to damp the springs in the lugs to keep them from ringing. Japan came out with drums that already had this done in the mid '70s so it appears to have become standard. I still really prefer the old ones after they have been worked over.

Cymbals are all over the map with both good ones and real dogs to be found among all the major brands. There are not a lot of great ones but even then touch determines if it will have a warm rich tone or sound like sandpaper.

toledo3 · 30th November 2003, 09:46 AM

As far as Gretsch 70's vs. Gretsch now, I have a 70's kit and a new kit, and I don't think that the hardware is particularly better on the 70's set. In fact, I prefer the new floating tom system; it allows for much more resonance with less sympathetic rattles from the other drums. I'll have to go look at the hoops on the old one, I don't think they are brass like Bob mentioned.

There are really so many good drums out there. Great cymbals are much more rare.

When you go to buy your cymbals, many music stores have a cymbal room and/or cymbal racks. Typically, the cymbal is tried out while on the rack. Do yourself a favor and have them take it outside of the room, and put it onto a cymbal stand. All of the resonance from the adjacent cymbals on a cymbal rack will give the false impression of a much smoother, richer sounding cymbal.

Frost · 30th November 2003, 10:20 AM

It is all about the player, but Ive never heard a bad Sonar kit. That and a good drummer and I can do no wrong. For that matter a good enough musician can make just about any engineer sound like king.
Frost

30th November 2003, 01:16 PM

I want some vintage Zildgen hats.....

Slingerland Toms

One day I will collect drums, just gotta cure my outboard / backline addiction first!

Etnier · 30th November 2003, 01:28 PM

I'm very lucky- a client, neighbor and friend of mine is a physician and drummer who collects drums (esp. Rogers and Ludwig from the 60's and 70's, but lots more as well.) He has a 20X20 room filled with drums, and many more in storage elsewhere. They're always available to me should the need arise. We recently went on a snare-picking mission and wound up choosing a glorious Radio King from the 1920's.

Can't beat it!

DirkB · 30th November 2003, 01:53 PM

It cannot be said often enough:

Tuning and drumheads are more important than the drums.
A well tuned Export with new ambassadors, well tuned, will sound a lot better than the old slingerland with worn out skins

.

Also, the difference between for example a Evans EQ3 or a Remo Powerstroke on the kick is huge!

However, a well tuned ludwig/slingerland/Pearl Masters/Yamaha recording custom will all sound great but have different flavors.

As far as cymballs: you need to have the top of the line cymbals, be it Paiste, Zildjan or Sabian. I personnally like the thinner Paistes, cause they're still sparkling, but not too high pitched.

Love the dark crisp hi-hats...

Greetings,
Dirk

Ted Nightshade · 30th November 2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jules
I want some vintage Zildgen hats.....

Slingerland Toms

One day I will collect drums, just gotta cure my outboard / backline addiction first!

Don't wait, Jules! Keep an eye out- you never know what you'll come across for cheap! Especially that great old set of A hats (probably won't come as a set) could be really dirt cheap... just got to keep trying 'em, and take "one to beat" with you when you go, so you can really tell what's going on... I've brought so many exciting cymbals home only to find they aren't as good as what I already had...

Dave Martin · 30th November 2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DirkB
It cannot be said often enough:

Tuning and drumheads are more important than the drums.
A well tuned Export with new ambassadors, well tuned,

Absolutely. And having the bearing edges tweaked by a master doesn't hurt a bit either.

e-cue · 30th November 2003, 04:19 PM

As far as kits, I'm partial to the DW line (see past posts), the Bleiphuss line for more vintagesque sounds with more realiabilty, and the rest would be a rental to rental situation depending on the style of song, the style of music, etc.

The newer ZILDJIAN TITANIUM cymbals are very impressive at 1st listen. The hats sound more consitant when the drummer is doing 16th notes and pressing lighter and harder down on the hat pedal. The rides sound a lot more like Sabian's AAX(which I love for rides because of the "ping" qualities) on the bell stuff.

The K series sound great with the Bleiphuss line for drums. When I worked with Greg Bissonette, he used a lot of the Oriental crashes, and hats with a couple of dark crashes that played very well off each other. The A Custom splashes sound great for latin music. The rest of the A customs sound great for darkness. The Regular K line is great (Mike Clark uses them a lot) and/but have a lot of sustain. I've seen a couple LA session players use the K as a top hat and the A custom as a bottom hat cymbal. I heard ?uestlove is using Zildjian crash cymbals as hi hats.

Ah, whatever. I usually leave it up to the drummer anyway as they are usually more familar with what works great for them.

speerchucker · 30th November 2003, 08:24 PM

Dave Martin wrote, "...having the bearing edges tweaked by a master doesn't hurt a bit either."

Agreed, Dave. A perfect bearing edge is everything. -And that's why a Sears kit usually won't cut it: Even if you have the edges cut by an expert, they likely won't last on a cheap kit. stability is important. I found that out the hard way.

Ted wrote, "I've brought so many exciting cymbals home only to find they aren't as good as what I already had..." aint it the truth. -additionally, I have a really hard time in the store judging how a cymbal is actually going to record. Makes me nuts. At the very least, you have to audition cymbals by actually setting them up on a full kit and playing a groove, but even then... The difference when they hit the O-H mic can be dramatic.

Dave Martin · 30th November 2003, 09:03 PM

I hope I never have to buy cymbals; they're so personal to the drummers that play them that it's much easier to have them bring their own. Of course, if I start getting full band projects in to produce (where the kids are playing POS cymbals), then I'll have to bite the bullet...

Bob Olhsson · 30th November 2003, 09:12 PM

Tweaking drum bearings used to just come with the territory of being a recording engineer!

speerchucker · 1st December 2003, 04:10 AM

Bob, that was back in the days when assistants were required to spend years developing their skills before they could be called engineers. Must've been wonderful.

-------------------------

Ex Cue wrote,

"I've seen a couple LA session players use the K as a top hat and the A custom as a bottom hat cymbal."

I've not seen that yet myself, but it makes sense. I like the bottom hat to be bright, so the "chick" cuts through without much eq, but a brassy top just kills me. I'll have to try it. Are they using mostly 13's or 14's with that combo?

OzNimbus · 1st December 2003, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jules
I want some vintage Zildgen hats.....

I've got a pair from the early 70's... very "swishy" My favourtie hats to record.

-0z-

bloodstone · 1st December 2003, 11:50 AM

I've always had the most success with vintage (antique?) Sonor & Gretsch drums, coupled with Zildjian cymbals. Ambassador heads everywhere except the kick.

rjx · 1st December 2003, 03:26 PM

Fibes drums are sweet recorded. Look into them

Modern Drummer Review

"...I played the kit first with the heads that came on the drums (and also with a set of Evans G2 heads). The toms dropped into low gear, producing deep, fat, punchy tones and a real bigness in the sound. I played the bass drum with a small muffling pillow touching only the front head-and with no hole in that head. The sound was absolutely cavernous.

When I put thinner heads on the kit (I tried both Remo Ambassadors and Evans Uno 58s) I got a sound that reminded me of a '65 Gretsch kit I played for years. It was sensitive, responsive, bright, and cutting-yet there was still an unmistakable underlying warmth. The thinner heads didn't give me the bass drum depth I'm partial to, so I'd still use thicker heads on that drum no matter which tom heads were used. But other than that, the combination of thin heads and the Fibes shell design just might offer drummers historic tom-tom and bass-drum sounds that haven't been heard for a lot of years... "

drummerman15 · 1st December 2003, 08:58 PM

Drum sounds are all relative, but here are my rules of thumb for what I think sounds best:

1. all birch or all maple shells
2. the thinnest and smaller diameter cymbals - preferably Zildj. A Customs or old vintage cymbals
3. 13" hi hats as thin as possible (at least the top) - Zildj. K's or "New Beats" are great.
4. Never choose a drum (or cymbal) based on the way it sounds in the store. Almost any drum will sound good when played in a room with 50 other drums.
5. Coated or clear ambassadors for toms - Powerstroke for the kick and coated ambassador or diplomat for the snare. clear ambassadors or diplomats for the bottom heads of toms and snare (also try the Remo Renaissance - somewhere between coated and clear)
6. Tuning is 3/4 of the battle. A great set tuned wrong will sound worse than a bad set tuned perfect. If you don't know how to tune drums, get a book, articles whatever - and try.
7. NEW HEADS!!!! Can't be stressed enough.

With that being said, my #1 rule of thumb is "if it sounds good, it is good." I would much rather have a drummer roll in with a crazy looking mismatched set than a brand new dw because (most likely) that drummer pieced all of those drums together based on the way they sound - not the way they look!

Here's a photo of my kit that (to me - and quite a few others) sounds amazing:

Slingerland 12", 14", 16", 22" dated June 1964! 1950's Gretsch WMP 5 1/4" snare. Also have a collection of other snares - Radio Kings, Ludwigs etc. Cymbals: Zild A Custom 16", 17" 18", 22" Zildj. K Custom ride.

e-cue · 1st December 2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker
Ex Cue wrote,

"I've seen a couple LA session players use the K as a top hat and the A custom as a bottom hat cymbal."

I've not seen that yet myself, but it makes sense. I like the bottom hat to be bright, so the "chick" cuts through without much eq, but a brassy top just kills me. I'll have to try it. Are they using mostly 13's or 14's with that combo?

I've seen the 13'smostly on the younger cats that I've been bumping into more often. Some of the older guys use the 14's (I think that's what Steve Gadd uses).

Ted Nightshade · 2nd December 2003, 04:59 PM

A&K pairs of hats can be quite cool. I like a sweet old A and an Istanbul (Zildjian) K. Either can go on top, depending on what you want. I wish I had a set in 13 though... the clarity of the Istanbul K is so great that the hats end up dominant once again, so now it's two old A's- a little mushy but real nice in the mix.

heinz · 2nd December 2003, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by patrox247
Old Gretsch Black Buety snares. I'm yet to hear one I didn't like or didn't track well.

Black Beauty = Ludwig

FYI

Cabo Robo · 2nd December 2003, 07:30 PM

Sam Bacco here in Nashville re-did the bearing edges on one of my vintage kits and I've had amazing results. Also my favorite snare of latley is my re-issue Ludwig black beauty. I have around 10 snares but the bb always seems to do the trick for me. Also the new Audio Technica 2500 dual element on the kick rules.

My 2 cents

michaelepstein · 29th June 2008, 05:22 PM

i dig the vintage zildjians from the 40's - 50's.
they are very thins and somewhat 'washy', but
they just have that "sound".. it's really just my preference,
I doubt they are as versatile as some of the newer K's.
they excel in jazz or classic rock though.. think vintage
elvis presley, benny goodman, or elvin jones type sound.

VINTAGE PAISTE cymbals are really nice too! they used to come
bundled in vintage ludwig sets from the 60's / 70's i believe?
not sure if they are all as good as the one's i've tried, but the
one's i've demoed sounded great.

EDIT: Note on the vintage zildjians. Since their so thin, i don't
recommend for general studio kit, they require a really gentle touch
and you get a rocker in there on the skins, banging like a psycho,
they are likely to crack or just get abused. that'd be unfortunate.
get some and save em for your "special" sessions or for personal use.

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29th November 2003, 10:43 PM	#2
Jason Poulin Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sudbury, On. Canada Posts: 1,686	The source begins before the kit. magik tracks = magik drummers I think an excellent drummer will make a Sears 250$ drumset shine provided the room is great!!! He'll beat any 5000$ drumset played by a half decent drummer. just my opinion but that in combination with a good kit will make your day. I just worked with a Yamaha Maple Custom set which was heaven to record. Old Gretch snare too. Very lovely. goodluck! Jason __________________ most important gear I own are my ears! visit my band www.apparatusmusic.com www.myspace.com/apparatusnumetal

30th November 2003, 12:55 AM	#5
Dave Martin Moderator emeritus Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 3,169	It IS the player - I've been using Pearls here for years - Originally a prototype of what became the Master Custom line (which had a finish even on the inside of the shells), and now have a tweaked out Export kit. Thedrums sound pretty much the same, because I usually use the same drummer. For that mater, he's a Gretsch endorsee, but claims that my Peals (which I traded him for) sound the same as his custom Gretsch recording kit. Go figure... __________________ Dave Martin Java Jive Studio www.javajivestudio.com Cuppa Joe Records www.cuppajoerecords.com Nashville, TN

30th November 2003, 01:02 AM	#6
dtobocman Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: los angeles Posts: 259	Not really on topic, but make sure the drummer brings another snare or three to the session. Switching out snares can be "it" factor when going from tune to tune or trying to get the kit right for one particular song. Snare choice has a huge impact on the entire track. __________________ David Tobocman www.VeryHelpfulSongs.com (Songs for Kids) Watch the music video to "Home"

30th November 2003, 05:26 AM	#8
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 5,248	Certainly the drummer is a lot of it but some drums record a lot better than others and heads make a huge difference in the amount of tone. I think thin ones sound the best but they have to be replaced really often and many younger drummers don't relate well to them. In the '70s there were Gretsch toms and then there was everything else. I checked out the current Gretsch drums the year before last at NAMM and found them to be not even in the ball park of the quality I saw 25 years ago. The old ones were very round, very solid and had amazing cast brass hoops that wouldn't bend at all. With older drums you'll need to damp the springs in the lugs to keep them from ringing. Japan came out with drums that already had this done in the mid '70s so it appears to have become standard. I still really prefer the old ones after they have been worked over. Cymbals are all over the map with both good ones and real dogs to be found among all the major brands. There are not a lot of great ones but even then touch determines if it will have a warm rich tone or sound like sandpaper. __________________ Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Bob's room 615 385-8051 Music Industry 2.0

29th November 2003, 10:38 PM	#1
speerchucker Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 255	Best drums / cymbals for recording? I posted this also on Expert forums, but this is kind of fitting on Jules' forum as well, so: There have been a ton of threads concerning mics & pres fro drums, and various recording techniques. Yet I have never seen any serious discussion of the most important element: The source. I’d like to start a discussion of what actual drums and cymbals you have used to get “magic” tracks. I’ve tried in vain to ask actual drummers about this, but (insert favorite drummer joke here) most drummers are understandably concerned primarily with live playing. Obviously, what works well for live performance does not necessarily work well for recording. A point has even be made that very resonant drums may in fact record badly. I don't know if I agree, but that’s an interesting and valid point for discussion. SO.... What particular kits have worked well for you, in the studio? Please menbtion the genre recorded as well, as that is obviously critical to the discussion. There is of course the ubiquitous Yamaha recording custom series. That's birch, and I have always LOVED the old Gretsch birch drums. Hmmm, I see a patttern there. -but maple seems to be the most common type available. Also, for all it’s warmth, birch may not have enough “cut” for modern, aggressive genres. -Or does it? I also now see some hybrids being made with birch or mahogony centers and maple on the outside, made specifically for recording. SO: type of wood? Shell size? Heads? muffling? Hats: I'm of the opinion that loud is better than soft, as this requires less of the spot mic (always a trade-off, due to snare and toms bleed) Yet, I see many drummer praising certain hats for being SOFT! What do you think? I can NEVER get enough hat in the O-H. -I suppose one could mention that the hats are 5-6ms behind in the O-H, and therefore a spot-mic on the hats is a good idea, hence 12’s and 13’s fro recording. Maybe that’s too anal? Crashes: Traditional wisdom says to use thin crashes, so they don't ring too long. However, thin crashes lack a certain amount of balls. Is there a type of crash with mucho guaves yet still a short on sustain? is long sustain worth the trade-off for hard rock? -And someone PLEASE explain piccolo snares to me. I don’t get it. etc etc etc etc you get the idea. Lay some opinions on me.....

30th November 2003, 12:17 AM	#3
heinz Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: seattle Posts: 1,011	Yeah the pilot-not-the-plane theory is good, although at some point the Sears kit becomes sonically limiting. But I agree that a good drummer on a well maintained & tuned kit tends to make the actual gear somewhat irrelevant. The room is a huge factor. For most drummers I know this is about application and preference. Top-of-the-line boutique sets i.e. Noble & Cooley, Pork Pie, etc.. are pretty damn good sounding. Old sets if well maintained i.e. early Rogers, Slingerland, etc.. are great sounding. What pro drummers do you like the sound of? Go check out what gear they're using. How cymbals sound has a LOT to do with the drummer, to the point where I feel it's almost purely subjective. But in general I like older A Zildjians best... mine are all like 20+ years old and sound 'right' to me, but then I'm an older bastard. Had good luck recording 17 or 18" med or med thin crashes... don't like to go too lite unless it's for a specific sound. Never usually have a problem getting good hi-hat in the overheads, unless the room is really dark sounding. Naturally mics play a role here. 14" A-Zildj New Beats are pretty good go-to hats. If you have the channels why not spot-mic it too and have it as backup? good luck man!

30th November 2003, 12:36 AM	#4
ixnys Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 325	I love the Paiste cymbals. They are bright and not gongy sounding. They decay rather quickly. I prefer them to the Zildjian A Customs. Even a paiste 14" hihat is my very hi-hat for open thrashing rock. My 13" Ziljian A custom is good for fast closed hihat playing like 311. So imho, Paiste's rule when it comes to rock!

30th November 2003, 01:30 AM	#7
denial Gear addict Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 497	I'm a fan of darker cymbals live or in the studio so the Zildjian K Customs have been some of the most pleasing. They're also a little dryer than the rest of the range. I've found the Paiste line to be considerably louder than most of the Zildjian line and generally not as smooth and sometimes overly bright and abrasive. I also find that Paiste crashes are prone to breaking quicker.

30th November 2003, 09:46 AM	#9
toledo3 Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Funky Town FL Posts: 1,189	As far as Gretsch 70's vs. Gretsch now, I have a 70's kit and a new kit, and I don't think that the hardware is particularly better on the 70's set. In fact, I prefer the new floating tom system; it allows for much more resonance with less sympathetic rattles from the other drums. I'll have to go look at the hoops on the old one, I don't think they are brass like Bob mentioned. There are really so many good drums out there. Great cymbals are much more rare. When you go to buy your cymbals, many music stores have a cymbal room and/or cymbal racks. Typically, the cymbal is tried out while on the rack. Do yourself a favor and have them take it outside of the room, and put it onto a cymbal stand. All of the resonance from the adjacent cymbals on a cymbal rack will give the false impression of a much smoother, richer sounding cymbal.

30th November 2003, 10:20 AM	#10
Frost Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 478	It is all about the player, but Ive never heard a bad Sonar kit. That and a good drummer and I can do no wrong. For that matter a good enough musician can make just about any engineer sound like king. Frost

30th November 2003, 01:16 PM	#11
Jules Guest Posts: n/a	I want some vintage Zildgen hats..... Slingerland Toms One day I will collect drums, just gotta cure my outboard / backline addiction first!

30th November 2003, 01:28 PM	#12
Etnier Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Cape Elizabeth ME USA Posts: 303	I'm very lucky- a client, neighbor and friend of mine is a physician and drummer who collects drums (esp. Rogers and Ludwig from the 60's and 70's, but lots more as well.) He has a 20X20 room filled with drums, and many more in storage elsewhere. They're always available to me should the need arise. We recently went on a snare-picking mission and wound up choosing a glorious Radio King from the 1920's. Can't beat it! __________________ John Etnier Studio Dual

30th November 2003, 01:53 PM	#13
DirkB Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,467	It cannot be said often enough: Tuning and drumheads are more important than the drums. A well tuned Export with new ambassadors, well tuned, will sound a lot better than the old slingerland with worn out skins . Also, the difference between for example a Evans EQ3 or a Remo Powerstroke on the kick is huge! However, a well tuned ludwig/slingerland/Pearl Masters/Yamaha recording custom will all sound great but have different flavors. As far as cymballs: you need to have the top of the line cymbals, be it Paiste, Zildjan or Sabian. I personnally like the thinner Paistes, cause they're still sparkling, but not too high pitched. Love the dark crisp hi-hats... Greetings, Dirk __________________ -progress takes away what forever took to find- Dave Matthews

30th November 2003, 04:19 PM	#16
e-cue Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 3,882	As far as kits, I'm partial to the DW line (see past posts), the Bleiphuss line for more vintagesque sounds with more realiabilty, and the rest would be a rental to rental situation depending on the style of song, the style of music, etc. The newer ZILDJIAN TITANIUM cymbals are very impressive at 1st listen. The hats sound more consitant when the drummer is doing 16th notes and pressing lighter and harder down on the hat pedal. The rides sound a lot more like Sabian's AAX(which I love for rides because of the "ping" qualities) on the bell stuff. The K series sound great with the Bleiphuss line for drums. When I worked with Greg Bissonette, he used a lot of the Oriental crashes, and hats with a couple of dark crashes that played very well off each other. The A Custom splashes sound great for latin music. The rest of the A customs sound great for darkness. The Regular K line is great (Mike Clark uses them a lot) and/but have a lot of sustain. I've seen a couple LA session players use the K as a top hat and the A custom as a bottom hat cymbal. I heard ?uestlove is using Zildjian crash cymbals as hi hats. Ah, whatever. I usually leave it up to the drummer anyway as they are usually more familar with what works great for them.

30th November 2003, 08:24 PM	#17
speerchucker Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 255	Dave Martin wrote, "...having the bearing edges tweaked by a master doesn't hurt a bit either." Agreed, Dave. A perfect bearing edge is everything. -And that's why a Sears kit usually won't cut it: Even if you have the edges cut by an expert, they likely won't last on a cheap kit. stability is important. I found that out the hard way. Ted wrote, "I've brought so many exciting cymbals home only to find they aren't as good as what I already had..." aint it the truth. -additionally, I have a really hard time in the store judging how a cymbal is actually going to record. Makes me nuts. At the very least, you have to audition cymbals by actually setting them up on a full kit and playing a groove, but even then... The difference when they hit the O-H mic can be dramatic.

30th November 2003, 09:03 PM	#18
Dave Martin Moderator emeritus Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 3,169	I hope I never have to buy cymbals; they're so personal to the drummers that play them that it's much easier to have them bring their own. Of course, if I start getting full band projects in to produce (where the kids are playing POS cymbals), then I'll have to bite the bullet... __________________ Dave Martin Java Jive Studio www.javajivestudio.com Cuppa Joe Records www.cuppajoerecords.com Nashville, TN

30th November 2003, 09:12 PM	#19
Bob Olhsson Motown legend Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Songwriter Gulch, Nashville TN Posts: 5,248	Tweaking drum bearings used to just come with the territory of being a recording engineer! __________________ Georgetown Masters 615 254-3233 Bob's room 615 385-8051 Music Industry 2.0

1st December 2003, 04:10 AM	#20
speerchucker Gear maniac Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 255	Bob, that was back in the days when assistants were required to spend years developing their skills before they could be called engineers. Must've been wonderful. ------------------------- Ex Cue wrote, "I've seen a couple LA session players use the K as a top hat and the A custom as a bottom hat cymbal." I've not seen that yet myself, but it makes sense. I like the bottom hat to be bright, so the "chick" cuts through without much eq, but a brassy top just kills me. I'll have to try it. Are they using mostly 13's or 14's with that combo?

1st December 2003, 11:50 AM	#22
bloodstone Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 658	Drums I've always had the most success with vintage (antique?) Sonor & Gretsch drums, coupled with Zildjian cymbals. Ambassador heads everywhere except the kick.

1st December 2003, 03:26 PM	#23
rjx Gear addict Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 439	Fibes drums are sweet recorded. Look into them Modern Drummer Review "...I played the kit first with the heads that came on the drums (and also with a set of Evans G2 heads). The toms dropped into low gear, producing deep, fat, punchy tones and a real bigness in the sound. I played the bass drum with a small muffling pillow touching only the front head-and with no hole in that head. The sound was absolutely cavernous. When I put thinner heads on the kit (I tried both Remo Ambassadors and Evans Uno 58s) I got a sound that reminded me of a '65 Gretsch kit I played for years. It was sensitive, responsive, bright, and cutting-yet there was still an unmistakable underlying warmth. The thinner heads didn't give me the bass drum depth I'm partial to, so I'd still use thicker heads on that drum no matter which tom heads were used. But other than that, the combination of thin heads and the Fibes shell design just might offer drummers historic tom-tom and bass-drum sounds that haven't been heard for a lot of years... " __________________ The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.

1st December 2003, 08:58 PM	#24
drummerman15 Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Houston Posts: 97	Drum sounds are all relative, but here are my rules of thumb for what I think sounds best: 1. all birch or all maple shells 2. the thinnest and smaller diameter cymbals - preferably Zildj. A Customs or old vintage cymbals 3. 13" hi hats as thin as possible (at least the top) - Zildj. K's or "New Beats" are great. 4. Never choose a drum (or cymbal) based on the way it sounds in the store. Almost any drum will sound good when played in a room with 50 other drums. 5. Coated or clear ambassadors for toms - Powerstroke for the kick and coated ambassador or diplomat for the snare. clear ambassadors or diplomats for the bottom heads of toms and snare (also try the Remo Renaissance - somewhere between coated and clear) 6. Tuning is 3/4 of the battle. A great set tuned wrong will sound worse than a bad set tuned perfect. If you don't know how to tune drums, get a book, articles whatever - and try. 7. NEW HEADS!!!! Can't be stressed enough. With that being said, my #1 rule of thumb is "if it sounds good, it is good." I would much rather have a drummer roll in with a crazy looking mismatched set than a brand new dw because (most likely) that drummer pieced all of those drums together based on the way they sound - not the way they look! Here's a photo of my kit that (to me - and quite a few others) sounds amazing: Slingerland 12", 14", 16", 22" dated June 1964! 1950's Gretsch WMP 5 1/4" snare. Also have a collection of other snares - Radio Kings, Ludwigs etc. Cymbals: Zild A Custom 16", 17" 18", 22" Zildj. K Custom ride. Attached Thumbnails

2nd December 2003, 04:59 PM	#26
Ted Nightshade Lives for gear Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: state of jefferson Posts: 1,328	A&K pairs of hats can be quite cool. I like a sweet old A and an Istanbul (Zildjian) K. Either can go on top, depending on what you want. I wish I had a set in 13 though... the clarity of the Istanbul K is so great that the hats end up dominant once again, so now it's two old A's- a little mushy but real nice in the mix.

2nd December 2003, 07:30 PM	#28
Cabo Robo Gear Head Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nashville,TN Posts: 34	Sam Bacco here in Nashville re-did the bearing edges on one of my vintage kits and I've had amazing results. Also my favorite snare of latley is my re-issue Ludwig black beauty. I have around 10 snares but the bb always seems to do the trick for me. Also the new Audio Technica 2500 dual element on the kick rules. My 2 cents __________________ Rob Dennis Owner Rack-N-Roll Audio / Spank Factory Nashville,TN 615-244-6499

29th June 2008, 05:22 PM	#29
michaelepstein Gear maniac Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 157	i dig the vintage zildjians from the 40's - 50's. they are very thins and somewhat 'washy', but they just have that "sound".. it's really just my preference, I doubt they are as versatile as some of the newer K's. they excel in jazz or classic rock though.. think vintage elvis presley, benny goodman, or elvin jones type sound. VINTAGE PAISTE cymbals are really nice too! they used to come bundled in vintage ludwig sets from the 60's / 70's i believe? not sure if they are all as good as the one's i've tried, but the one's i've demoed sounded great. EDIT: Note on the vintage zildjians. Since their so thin, i don't recommend for general studio kit, they require a really gentle touch and you get a rocker in there on the skins, banging like a psycho, they are likely to crack or just get abused. that'd be unfortunate. get some and save em for your "special" sessions or for personal use.